The Empires of God (wip)

[hiigara128]

I had downloaded the 0.02 version, so that explains why it wasn't working. Downloading the .2.1 version now.

 

[ngppgn]

I suspect you are/will be using tributariea for the "client state" impementation?

I have to study your peace conference event chain, since I wanted to create a sall "peace treaty system" for generic wars myself

 

[fanoI]

I had downloaded the 0.02 version, so that explains why it wasn't working. Downloading the .2.1 version now.

OK let me know if now the events work correctly if not there is something really strange as they are working for me.

I suspect you are/will be using tributariea for the "client state" impementation?

Probably yes these future ideas for the mod regarding the Roman area (in future other Empires of God will have their attention):

1. Use the Viceroy or special government to emulate the Roman Prefectures: the petty Empires of the barbarians (Francia, Hispania, Italia) disappear when ERE / WRE are formed but could be reformed into King level Prefectures if so the Imperator Augustus desires to simplify the administration
2. Obviously a special government for the Roman Republic / Roman Empire
3. As tributaries permit to Empires to have other Empires as vassal (well sort of) I can add the decision to redivide the Empire given the player the choice to rule from the west (you will be the Roman Emperor and Western Roman Emperor) or from the east (you will be the Roman Emperor and Western Roman Emperor) the other title will be assigned via appointment to who the Senior Emperor wants acting as a giant Client State
   
4. Client States this happens already as a sort of experiment as one of the possible fates of Burgundy in "The Conference of Peace" I'm in doubt to how use them: as a stepping stone to the conquest of the High Kingdoms? For example the Client State of Burgundy could get a claim on the rest of Gallia / Francia? And when all Gallia is conquered the Roman Emperor could decide to absorb it. Or maybe I can use it only for border territories maybe "barbarians" (Nomads that could become the new foederati). What is the more historical thing? Ceasar conquered Gallia only by might or a lot of Gallic tribes were de facto already client states of Rome?

I have to study your peace conference event chain, since I wanted to create a sall "peace treaty system" for generic wars myself

Please not that I think it is impossible to arrive to the level of detail of EU4, however the file to look is EoG_events.txt: the event chain starts with EoG5. If you need help to understand what is happening let me known.

P.S. To the mods it is possible to change the thread title to "The Empires of God (first alpha released) ? Thank you!

 

[KaiserNoncehelmIII]

Any chance this will be compatible with project Augustus? I love mods that deal with the Roman empire and i believe that these two mods could completely overhaul the experience of restoring the Roman Empire.

 

[fanoI]

It is impossible to make two mods that totally overhaul the game compatible at least not with the mod dependency way: they change too much files in - maybe - incompatible ways and so it is not a process that sadly can not be done automatically. One should check any file eventually make copies dedicated to the other mod if there are conflicts and so on... it is in this way that I made compatible "The Empires of God" with RIRSEI but now I'm 2 release back of the original version!

The good news is that omega20056 and I have an accord of exchange and material of "The Empires of God" can go in "Project Augustus" and viceversa, for example I'm a lot interested in the work he is doing to overhaul Byzantium and I hope, one day, to integrate it in my mod.

But now the important thing before adding now functionality is to make the mod compatible with the 2.4x patches they have changed so much that the game simply crashes again.... I hope it will not be a nightmare as it was with Charlemagne!

 

[KaiserNoncehelmIII]

It is impossible to make two mods that totally overhaul the game compatible at least not with the mod dependency way: they change too much files in - maybe - incompatible ways and so it is not a process that sadly can not be done automatically. One should check any file eventually make copies dedicated to the other mod if there are conflicts and so on... it is in this way that I made compatible "The Empires of God" with RIRSEI but now I'm 2 release back of the original version!

The good news is that omega20056 and I have an accord of exchange and material of "The Empires of God" can go in "Project Augustus" and viceversa, for example I'm a lot interested in the work he is doing to overhaul Byzantium and I hope, one day, to integrate it in my mod.

But now the important thing before adding now functionality is to make the mod compatible with the 2.4x patches they have changed so much that the game simply crashes again.... I hope it will not be a nightmare as it was with Charlemagne!

Good, it was the byzantine/roman mechanics that interested me most in that mod anyway

 

[fanoI]

Please notice that I am working to this mod alone and before I will arrive to "merge" the Byzantine overhaul a lot of time can pass!
Before I had to end "The Conference of Peace" event chain from the East side of the world (Byzantium vs Latin Empire / Bulgaria / Serbia) then I had to tough of a mechanic to restore the Roman Prefectures and how they could revolt...

If you want to join the team any help is appreciated!

P.S. Good news! "The Empires of God" not CTD anymore with patch 2.4x now start the "fun" part the proper merging (that I hate a lot "xxx is not anymore father of yyy but www?" and this repeats for 1'000'000 of rows ) and I have not modified the map but only replace Italian with Lombard (I found not historical that Italian culture exists in the year 1000, it started a lot late with "The Renaissance" but the Italian language was only an academic language until the unification when it was enforced with the public school system... but our Kings continued to talk French!).

 

[KaiserNoncehelmIII]

Please notice that I am working to this mod alone and before I will arrive to "merge" the Byzantine overhaul a lot of time can pass!.

Of course that's completely understandable

 

[hiigara128]

Finally got around to reverting to a previous version to play this mod and I gotta say, lovin' it so far! Also, after reading some of the discussions on titles and the empires, I feel I should give my own two cents. The Holy Roman Empire was considered a sort of Roman successor state by Constantinople, although they never said as such. For the most part the Holy Roman Emperor was called either the Emperor of the Franks or the Emperor of the Germans. This is best shown by the writings of Constantine VII, who said that the Imperial family should never marry outside of the Empire, unless it was to a Frankish Princess. So clearly the East was willing to give de-facto recognition to the Holy Roman Empire.

Also, the West was always respectful of the Byzantine Empire's position as the heir of Rome, up till the 1204 sack of Constantinople. No one denied the position of the Byzantine Emperor, even if he was occasionally referred to as Emperor of the Greeks. Tied into this is the concept of Translatio imperii, or transfer of rule. Basically its the idea that an empire inherits its authority and power from a previous incarnation. The Holy Roman Emperors believed that they had inherited the rights of the Western Empire, via a lineage from Rome to the Lombards (who controlled the Imperial title as rulers of Italy after the Carolingian collapse). So it had less to do with doubted the Easts legitimacy and more with inheriting at least some of that legitimacy themselves.

Finally, as you seem to be going towards a fairly historical position for the Byzantine empire, you might want to consider using the name it called itself, Basileía Rhōmaíōn or Roman Empire. You could also use the Holy Roman Empire's name in either Latin, Sacrum Romanum Imperium or in German, Heiliges Römisches Reich, to add more flavor to the mod. Same for the Latin Empire, or the Imperium Romaniae in Latin.

Again love the mode and am excited to see where you will go with it.

 

[fanoI]

Finally got around to reverting to a previous version to play this mod and I gotta say, lovin' it so far! Also, after reading some of the discussions on titles and the empires, I feel I should give my own two cents. The Holy Roman Empire was considered a sort of Roman successor state by Constantinople, although they never said as such. For the most part the Holy Roman Emperor was called either the Emperor of the Franks or the Emperor of the Germans. This is best shown by the writings of Constantine VII, who said that the Imperial family should never marry outside of the Empire, unless it was to a Frankish Princess. So clearly the East was willing to give de-facto recognition to the Holy Roman Empire.

Yes it was a sort of love / hate relations, Charlemagne itself could have married Irene if Byzantine coup of State not impeded this!
The world would have been totally different then...

Also, the West was always respectful of the Byzantine Empire's position as the heir of Rome, up till the 1204 sack of Constantinople. No one denied the position of the Byzantine Emperor, even if he was occasionally referred to as Emperor of the Greeks. Tied into this is the concept of Translatio imperii, or transfer of rule. Basically its the idea that an empire inherits its authority and power from a previous incarnation. The Holy Roman Emperors believed that they had inherited the rights of the Western Empire, via a lineage from Rome to the Lombards (who controlled the Imperial title as rulers of Italy after the Carolingian collapse). So it had less to do with doubted the Easts legitimacy and more with inheriting at least some of that legitimacy themselves.

That is what "The Empires of God" tries to represent: in game is never said that the Byzantines are not the Roman Emperors (in the East) but that the Holy Roman Emperors are the legitimate successors of the Roman Emperors in the West (so recognized by God and all Christendom).

Finally, as you seem to be going towards a fairly historical position for the Byzantine empire, you might want to consider using the name it called itself, Basileía Rhōmaíōn or Roman Empire. You could also use the Holy Roman Empire's name in either Latin, Sacrum Romanum Imperium or in German, Heiliges Römisches Reich, to add more flavor to the mod. Same for the Latin Empire, or the Imperium Romaniae in Latin.

I prefer to not use original names of the countries but remain on the generic "English" translation because if not what is the limit? I should refer to Arab countries with their Arab names? I need to to translit Arabian script in Latin? Should I call Albania Shqipëtar?
Calling Byzantium Basileía Rhōmaíōn will create a problem with the mod itself: Byzantium is NOT considered neither the Eastern Roman Empire[1] at time of the game because it is really a Greek realm that pretend to be "The Roman Empire": they used Greek as language, had more oriental traditions (Byzantium was a Despotic Monarchy with the Emperor as a Godly figure) and started to castrate and blind and blind everyone and everything!

... and now the Byzantinophiles want to kill me probably
But for me the 3 resurgent "Roman Republics"[2] that happened in the Middle Ages / Risorgimento are more "Romans" that Byzantium...

Again love the mode and am excited to see where you will go with it.

I am happy to hear this!
I hope today to release the first alpha compatible with the patch 2.4x I'm unsure if the save game will be compatible probably they will be but the new provinces in Mongolia will be empty...

[1] As the Holy Roman Empire is merely a successor state of WRE, so is for Byzantium that is a successor state of ERE. All the two Empires can obviously be restored and uniting the two you can restore the true original spectacular... "Roman Empire"!
[2] One is already present as "The Commune of Rome" in the mod but I'll add, one day, the Cola di Rienzo one two! The third is sadly out of timeline being a French Republic Client State...

 

[fanoI]

OK finally the new alpha is ready as we have noticed it was not "today" but some week(s) later!
I don't have a lot of problems with "The Horse Lords" compatibility in reality but thanks to the debug mode I have seen that the RIRSEI event chains had id problem (they were all > 99'999 and this broke the namespace concept possibly overwriting other events!) this process is tedious and complex as I have to change the ID, update the decisions file if the event was called from the decision and, in the end, the localization.
Doing this I have noticed that I have hinireted a lot of Byzantine flavor from RIRSEI that I have forgotten:

1. The Byzantines are divided in two factions: Aristos and Dunatos. The Emperor can chose what faction to side, I don't know if there are other events associated to this or if it is only flavour
   
2. A powerful duke of Croatia, Hungary, Poland and other that cannot remember can ask a crown to the Basileus if they convert to Orthodoxy otherwise they can refer to the Pope (note to self: this means that Croatia, Hungary and Poland should not be created normally at least the first time)
3. There are decisions for the elevation of Bulgaria and Serbia to Empires in which the Basileus can accept that they are his equal or fight to submit them again
4. There is Russian Empire formation decision too
5. There is sort of appointment mechanic for the Dux in the Empire but this is superseded by the Viceroy mechanic so I could remove it in the future

So if you are interested to play as Byzantium please check that the behavior of these events are correct.

This is the release 0.0.3 change log:

- Compatible with "The Horse Lord DLC" and accompanying patches
- RIRSEI events ID were no more OK because were > 99'999 changed them
all!
- Fixed RIRSEI decisions that referred to old laws

And this is the ModDB link:



Enjoy and, as always, let me know of any bug you have encountered!

 

[loup99]

You know that RIRSEI is up to date with Horse Lords too? Also, moddb is forbidden on the forums as far as I remember, so you might want to remove that link.

 

[fanoI]

I imagined that RIRSEI was been updated for Horse Lord DLC but there are 2 problems for me:

1. My version of RIRSEI is modified from the original one (not only for the events ID) to be more "compatible" with the concepts in "The Empires of God" so now it has become a fork.... it is true that more time I make pass before updating more the two versions will diverge
2. The new versions of RIRSEI are in French only right? So I need to translate it before...

Regarding moddb I see it is used by other mods too! I find it really better that the usual fileshare,4shared and so on... for example thanks to it I known that version 0.0.3 was downloaded 126 times (thanks to you all! But please don't be shy and post here make this thread more "alive"!) so I'll retain it for now.

However I'm working in the East Roman Empire now (a more detailed developer diary will follow) and in these days I like to start to work in "The Conference of Peace" that will happen when the Pretender Successor State of ERE defeats the rightful successor state (usually Byzantium) that is the analogous of what happens in the West.

What I want to accomplish:

1. Who wins the war seize the Duchy of Thrace and changes its capital to Constantinople
   
2. The Byzantine Emperor become Emperor of Nicaea and changes its capital to the ononymous city *
3. The winner of the Conference can choose two things: to annex the vassals in the Kingdom of Greece or to make them vote to become vassals of the Emperor in Constantinople or to the Emperor in Nicaea or to become independent (this for example is what that the Duke of Trebizond could try to do!)

And the point 3 is the problem in the West I had the Kingdom of Italy / Lombardy that has de jure setup that mapped well with the HRE / Germania division but the Kingdom of Greece comprises a part of the Anatolian Peninsula and the island of Crete too! And these territories I'd like to become part of Nicaea or, at maximum, independent not part of the new Empire that seized Constantinople so what to do? How divide the Kingdom of Greece?

One possibility:

The term Greece is anti-historical so should not exist altogether the Kingdom of Greece is divided in this de jure Kingdoms:

1. Thracia (Thrace and Adrianopolis) this the Imperial Demesne, not formable so if one wants to give the other Greeks Kingdoms to Viceroys he can without them desiring the Imperial Capital
2. Thessalonika (Thessalonika, Agean Islands, Athens, Achea, maybe Epirus too?)
3. Cyprus (could be created only by Catholic / Catholic heretic characters)
   
4. The coast of Anatolia how I can call it? I've looked how the Romans called it but sadly this map does not makes me happy! It is divided in two provinces: "Bythinia & Pontus" and "Asia", Asia I'll discard as it would create confusion so what remains a Kingdom called "Bythinia & Pontus"? Or only "Bythinia"?

More compromise solution let exists Greece but make it small:

1. The coast in Asia Minor is given to the Kingdom of Anatolia (a Kingdom that again never existed so what is the sense?)
2. Cyprus become a new de jure Kingdom
3. Thracia (Thrace and Adrianopolis) this the Imperial Demesne, not formable so if one wants to give the other Greeks Kingdoms to Viceroys he can without them desiring the Imperial Capital

Do you have other ideas / suggestions?
Thanks for your help!

* or Trebizond if for whatever reasons Nicaea is not part of its territory anymore!

In the end this the setup I have decided to use it is a middle ground between the two there is no "Thessalonika " in the end because this gives to me the idea of a Crusader State (but - probably - I am wrong), I have use the term "Hellas" instead of "Greece" because it seems more fitting to me, the coast of Anatolia is part of the Kingdom of Nikaea now...

What do you think?

 

[fanoI]

Developer Diary #2: A look at the East

In this developer diary - as the name suggests - we give a look at the East and, in particular at the core territory of The Eastern Roman Empire and his successor states.

In "The Empires of God" the rightful successor state of the Eastern Roman Empire is obviously the Byzantine Empire but it had a lot of pretenders!
Let's give a look to them in order of how much they were successful.

The Basileia of Bulgaria and Romània

The First Bulgarian Empire raised in the year 893 when the Kniaz of Bulgaria Simeon I (that could be translate in English roughly as Prince) after a long string of successful victories against the Byzantines declared himself "Tsar Basileus": The First Bulgarian Empire was born.

You can play as him in the 924 bookmark and, obviously, you result a pretender to ERE with this justification:

Sadly the First Bulgarian Empire does not lasted much and already at the death of Simeon the Empire started to decline until in 1018 all the territory of the Empire was annexed to Byzantium!

The Second Bulgarian Empire starts in the year 1196 when King Kaloyan of Bulgaria conquered so much territory of the Byzantine Empire to declare himself "Tsar Basileus" again.

The Second Bulgarian Empire lasted much longer at least until 1241 it was a strong State but then started to decline but yet managed to retain his independence from Byzantium and in the end only the Ottoman could defeat them and make cease the "Empire" in 1396.
In game I have decided that "The Second Bulgarian Empire" ceased to exist in 1241 and for this Koloman I is simply King of Bulgaria again this seems the more correct choice to represent how the thing was in reality and avoiding the illusion that Empire endured 200 years!
The more interesting bookmark to play as "The Second Bulgarian Empire" is probably in 1204: the IV Crusader scenario in which Byzantium is no more (!), there is the Latin Empire, Epirus, Trebizond and so on...

But what about to form it instead to play it in the historical bookmarks?

The Basilea of Bulgaria and Romània can be formed - via decision - in two different situations when the Byzantine Empire is weak or when The Byzantine Empire does not exist.

First decision:

1. The Byzantine Empire does not completely controls Constantinople
2. The Byzantine Empire has low crown authority
3. The Byzantine Empire controls really little territory
4. Bulgaria completely controls Thessalonika, Epirus, Dyrrachion and Wallachia
5. Bulgaria has high or absolute crown authority

Second decision:

1. Neither Byzantium, ERE or the Roman Empire shall exist
2. Prestige at least 4000
3. Piety at least 500
4. Bulgaria completely controls Thessalonika, Epirus, Dyrrachion and Wallachia
5. Bulgaria has high or absolute crown authority

The Latin Empire (or The Empire of Romània)

The Latin Empire was the result of betrayal of Venetian merchants during the IV Crusade that - instead to free Jerusalem - decided to attack The Byzantine Empire that it was - technically - an ally in that war!
They created a puppet State that in their view should have replaced The Byzantine Empire as the successor State of the ERE and called it "Empire of Romània" but the historians decided to call it "The Latin Empire" to avoid confusion. This the situation in the 1204 scenario:

I have moved little forward the vanilla bookmark to make playable Bonifacio - the King of Thessalonica - in the end the Empire seems more powerful but beware that Bonifacio controls a lot of the Latin Empire territory and has a claim on the Empire itself (because he never forgotten that the title should have been his!).

In any case The Latin Empire for circa 50 years controlled Constantinople and - at least initially - they had success so they deserve the title of rightful successor state of ERE (technically the Conference of peace between the Latin Empire and Byzantium is already happened and you are looking and the most plausible result!):

OK but what about form "The Latin Empire" in other scenarios? The Latin Empire can be formed in two cases by Venice is it has moved its capital to Constantinople and by any Catholic characters that controls Constantinople.

The first decision:

1. You must be the Serene Doge of Venice
2. You must be Catholic or Catholic heretic
3. You must be independent
4. Constantinople (Galata) must be your capital
5. You must completely control: Thrace, Adrianopolis, Thessalonika, Athens, Achaia or Nikaea, Samos, Cibyrrhaeot and Lykia

The second decision:

1. You must not hold Venice, The Roman Empire or Byzantium
2. The Roman Empire or The ERE shall not exist
3. You must be independent
4. Constantinople must be your capital
5. You must completely control: Thrace, Adrianopolis, Thessalonika, Athens, Achaia or Nikaea, Samos, Cibyrrhaeot and Lykia

The Basileia of Serbia and Romània

King Stefàn Uros the Strong of Serbia in 1346 conquered a lot of Byzantine Territory and vassalized the weak and declining "Empire" of Bulgaria too!
Sadly this is after the last playable bookmark of CK2 so I have decided to give to him the Imperial title slightly before to make him playable:

For some reasons I cannot go over the last bookmark using the arrows in the lodge so I cannot show you a scenario in which it is at its maximum expansion so I can only show an Wikipedia image notice the fate of the once mighty Empire of Bulgaria and Romània!

However in this bookmark being an Empire they get the usual event that are the pretender to be successor of the ERE:

Again the "Basileia of Serbia and Romània" can be formed in other scenarios too with two decisions that are analogous to the ones to create Bulgaria and Romània.

The Basileia of Russia (Tsardom of Russia)

This Empire was created in 1547 by Ivan IV and so it is really out of CK2 timeline; the only picture I can show to you is one of the title created by myself (cheating with the console because I'm the mod creator and so I can do it!):

Russia has the usual pretension to ERE but in this case the excuse is the Third Rome thing (it seems anti - historical as I have created the title in 1066 but when you see the condition to create Russia you see that it makes sense):

As already said there is no bookmark in which the Tsardom of Russia is playable it can be created only by decision as usually you can create the title if Byzantium does not exist anymore or if it is weak.

Byzantium does not exist:

1. You should be the Kagan of Kievan Rus
   
2. You completely control Kievan Rus
   
3. You should be Orthodox
4. The ERE or the Roman Empire should not exists
   
5. Prestige at least 5000
6. Piety at least 500
7. High or Absolute Crown Authority

Byzantium is weak:

1. You should be the Kagan of Kievan Rus
2. You completely control Kievan Rus
3. You should be Orthodox
4. The ERE or the Roman Empire should not exists
5. Byzantium is weak
6. Byzantium does not completely controls Anatolia and Greece

The Nicaen Empire

This is the rump state created as the result of the IV "Crusade" (or Venetian invasion?), this is the only real successor of the Eastern Roman Empire which rulers have bloodlines that link them - maybe mythologically - to the ancients Roman Emperor.
This is the situation in 1204:

Again the Nicaen Empire is one of the Pretender to the Eastern Roman Empire but this time it is true!

The Nicaen Empire is present only from 1204 until 1261 or can be created via event in "The Conference of Peace" it can restore the Byzantine Empire via decision if it reconquers Constantinople.

The Empire of Trebizond

The last pretender is "The Empire of Trebizond" probably the little Empire in the history a petty Empire one could say! Nevertheless maybe for insignificance or for a smart marriage trading it endured from 1204 until 1461 only because the last dump Emperor provoked so much the Ottomans that they have to annex them. So in the end this the last State legally Successor of ERE.
This is the situation in 1204:

Here their pretension to the ERE:

The Empire of Trebizond is present from 1204 until CK2 ends (!) or can be created via event in "The Conference of Peace" (probably only if the Duke of Trebizond is ruled by House Megas Kommenos) it can restore the Byzantine Empire via decision if it reconquers Constantinople.

Well this the end of this developer diary, now your comments!

 

[Galaahd]

This looks incredibly ambitious. Good luck! Will be following with interest.

 

[fanoI]

Yes I'm an ambitious man
... and the better has yet to come!

P.S. I did not know that quote of the great Giulio Andreotti! Really fun

 

[1Katsuyori1]

awesome and what about western roman empire?

 

[fanoI]

In the west the rightful successor is the Holy Roman Empire that is usually undisputed (but if other Catholic characters become High Kings they should try to seize the HRE with Pope consent) but in the 1143 bookmark "The Commune of Rome" is formed that could create the title of S.P.Q.R. this a "Great Pretender" because his claim it not based on forged documents (The Donation of Constantine) but on the fact that they are Romans ruling Rome and are a Republic too!

The other pretenders are other possible results of "The Conference of Peace"

1. (High) Kingdom of Germania, ex Holy Roman Empire after being defeated by S.P.Q.R.
2. (High) Kingdom of Italia, ex S.P.Q.R. after being defeated by (High) Kingdom of Germania (that will be H.R.E. again)

For more information please read my first development diary.

 

[omega20056]

Bulgaria never controlled the actual city of Thessalonika. They raided the hinterlands but the city itself was well defended.

 

[fanoI]

So what would be a correct representation of the 924 scenario in your opinion? Give to Bulgaria all the Duchy excluding the county of Thessaloniki? But in the end what would change? The player would conquer the county as his first move and maybe the IA too and it will be conquered easy not how happened in reality!

I have used this map that coming from Wikipedia could be wrong:

But effectively in this other map Thessaloniki is yet part of Byzantium as an enclave with Bulgarian territory around (but is not a lot clear as the "." of Thessaloniki seems in Bulgaria!).

By the way I could left out the condition that the duchy of Thessaloniki is needed to form the Empire of Bulgaria and Romània as effectively was not needed to proclaim the Empire...

What about my subdivision of the Kingdom of Greece? Do you have suggestions?