The Eagle and The Lion - A History of the German Empire in the Revolutionary Wars

[unmerged(10426)]

Marvelous! My attachment to this AAR grows with every update!

However.


However.

Nit-picking time. In this timeline, 'Bolshevik' would not be used as it was IRL. I would imagine that if it had any kind of equivalent it would be 'Menshevik'. (Considering here Trotsky used the Mensheviks to seize power, and then 'amalgamated' with the Bolsheviks to form the CPSU.)

I don't mean to grumble as much as I do.

 

[The Yogi]

Nit-picking time. In this timeline, 'Bolshevik' would not be used as it was IRL. I would imagine that if it had any kind of equivalent it would be 'Menshevik'. (Considering here Trotsky used the Mensheviks to seize power, and then 'amalgamated' with the Bolsheviks to form the CPSU.)

I don't mean to grumble as much as I do.

I'm sure you don't. I stand humbly corrected, of course you're right. One of these days, I'll make a complete FUBAR of things by mentioning "tanks". You just wait! I guess Communist or Red would be the names people used ITL.

 

[The Yogi]

BTW, I would need some language help. It there are hungarians, czechs, slovaks, croats, serbs, poles, ukrainians and/or russians (or people proefficent in those languages) on this board that would be OK with doing some occasional translation for me (just short phrases like "Long Live the Revolution!"), then please drop me a PM.

 

[Archangel85]

BTW, I would need some language help. It there are hungarians, czechs, slovaks, croats, serbs, poles, ukrainians and/or russians (or people proefficent in those languages) on this board that would be OK with doing some occasional translation for me (just short phrases like "Long Live the Revolution!"), then please drop me a PM.

Its wurst, yogi, unless you mean a sausage, then it would be Würstchen


Tune in again next week, when its again time for "Archangel nit picks on other peoples german"...

 

[Petrarca]

Well, I must say; great update. I do hope our dear friend Herr Waldheim manages to work his way up the ranks, quite a protogue he would serve to Guderian. Again, great work Yogi, I simply cannot wait for the next chapter.

I still demand Manstein!

As for Waldheim, I think his career will be bright. Plus, unlike the ossified Prussians, I imagine the Austrians will be desperate for quality officer material such as our young corporal. Oh, and I enjoyed both the movie Yogi took the title from and the post.

This reminds me of a Red Army quote that someone has in their sig: "The best terran for tank maneuvers is one without anti-tank weapons."

 

[Rommel22]

Great update,
I actually found it amusing. I caught myself laughing a bit at the cpl. expense. I can just picture that scene, how funny. Your writting style is excelent!

Anyway, I sent you a PM about you needing help with translations.

 

[elbasto]

Yogi, you have the hability to turn apparently meaningless events (as the fact than an infantry division with a brigade of armoured cars attached are attacking a hilly province with armour in it) into a post worth of a mayor war novel.

Congratulations on such a magnificent job.

 

[unmerged(13425)]

BTW, I would need some language help. It there are hungarians, czechs, slovaks, croats, serbs, poles, ukrainians and/or russians (or people proefficent in those languages) on this board that would be OK with doing some occasional translation for me (just short phrases like "Long Live the Revolution!"), then please drop me a PM.

But no Romanians?? When the bulk of the Hungarian army is made up of people of such ethnicity....strange...

Oh. And there was this really good question posted by Neroon: the very heart of Blitzkrieg was not so much the armoured spearhead doctrine, but the close co-operation between army and Luftwaffe. After all, IIRC, in OTL the Germans did have pretty crappy armor until they went up against the ruskies. Like, PIIs against s-35s and P38s against Char b1s and Mathildas. The reason they got through was that whenever they would run into one of those allied monsters, the company commander could pick up the phone and give the Ju-87B boys in the air above him the coordinates for where the juicy tank target is. A couple of bombs later and there would be no Mathilda around anymore.

So, what of that part?

Or is a problem of HoI2 in general - that the game designers actually missed the importance of ju87s for the blitzkrieg doctrine?

 

[The Yogi]

But no Romanians?? When the bulk of the Hungarian army is made up of people of such ethnicity....strange...

Yes, I forgot Romanian and Italian (just in case). Archangel 85 will help me with German, I'm sure.

So, what of that part? Or is a problem of HoI2 in general - that the game designers actually missed the importance of ju87s for the blitzkrieg doctrine?

In Austria, Guderian has very little airpower to back him up. A single squadron of Austrian medium bombers flies round the clock sorties interdicting the Red supply lines, but the effect, except in some small battles, is negligeble.

The German Luftwaffe, on the other hand and in contrast to the army is MORE formidable in this timeline than in ours, with loads of interceptors, escort fighters and medium bombers. They don't have any dive-bombers yet, but they are toying with the idea (they would have been very useful for infantry support too).

IMHO, HOI2 VASTLY underrates the effect of dive bomber ground support, but I'll try to build them just the same.

 

[Archangel85]

well, Air-ground coordination was part of the Blitzkrieg doctrine, but not the heart - no company commander could pick up the phone and get direct contact to the JU 87s, they had their own dispatchers travelling with the advancing army. Blitzkrieg is all about maneuver, speed, and suprise. You can defeat much larger armies if you are superior at a decisive point, and then don't stop for nothing. Air support aids, it plays the role of artillery that naturally (being mostly horse drawn) lags behind.

 

[Rommel22]

About the blitzkrieg doctrine.
Yes, Airpower did play a role, but not the decisive role. One of the main things was to concentrate your armor at the decisive point. Once the infantry broke through the frontline, the Armor was sent through to exploit the gap. The armor was sent in numbers, a division or more.

The French/Brits didn't have Armored divisions. They had their armor spread out through out the entire front, attached as support. The French and Brits had a combined strenght of 4400 tanks of all types in 1940, the Germans had some 2100, of all types. However, mostly Pz-IIs and Pz-Is.

When the Germans met with allied Armor, they were too few. Maybe a company or a battalion, against a German division. And yes, at a moment when the German armor was making no headway against allied armor, then Stukas were called in. But a coy CO did not have such authority. An Air liason had to be present and had to get permission from higher. Usually, a corps HQ or even an Army HQ.

 

[unmerged(10426)]

But no Romanians??

It would be interesting to know what Corneliu Codreanu is doing in this timeline. If he's not already dead, that is.

 

[Friedericus Rex]

IMHO, HOI2 VASTLY underrates the effect of dive bomber ground support, but I'll try to build them just the same.

I agree, that's why I increased the stack limit for air units to eight, works quite well for me.

Great AAR!

 

[unmerged(7845)]

Wonderful update, once again Yogi, that scene had me cracking up there!

 

[Sir Humphrey]

Such a nice update. Nice.

 

[unmerged(41995)]

Query...

Are the commonwealth countries ITL more british than the british (as they seemed to be in OTL)?

 

[unmerged(13425)]

About the blitzkrieg doctrine.
When the Germans met with allied Armor, they were too few.

Don't overestimate the meaning of numbers. Remember Kursk where the German Panthers where clearly outnumbered by T-34s, but they most certainly held their own.

Regarding the comms between the branches, I might of course be wrong as to where in the organization the liasion sat.

Still: my argument is - blitzkrieg depended on 2 things for success- the formation of armoured spearheads (=panzer divisions) to exploit breakthroughs AND the efficient use of air power, particularly dive bombers, to provide CAS. HoI2, it seems to me (as to the Yogi) vastly underestimates the impact of said dive bombers.

To have efficient blitzkrieg, you can't really have one without the other....

 

[unmerged(1463)]

When will the final Chapter XIX – Turn of the tide
Be posted in your own seperate thread

 

[Neroon]

Still: my argument is - blitzkrieg depended on 2 things for success- the formation of armoured spearheads (=panzer divisions) to exploit breakthroughs AND the efficient use of air power, particularly dive bombers, to provide CAS. HoI2, it seems to me (as to the Yogi) vastly underestimates the impact of said dive bombers.

There is one thing that is often overlooked here: In OTLs WW2 during the battle of France the Allied tanks, while being at least as good as the German ones lacked one thing: Radio
If WW2 would have been fought like late WW1, just with newer weapons, that would not have made a noticeable impact. In order to breach trenches for the infantry you basically just have to go in the right direction and clear the path for the grunts on foot. You also don't need for the tank commander(s) to be able to talk to the guys in charge of the air and artillery units since they already been givin their orders before the attack and know what to do. Or at least that was the plan .
But in highspeed mobile warfare (usually referred to as Blitzkrieg )where the trick is to outmanouver the enemy before the shooting even starts and quickly adapting to fast-chaning circumstates at a local level you absolutlely need radio communication between tanks as well as between tanks and the other forces.
Blitzkrieg is NOT about smashing through the enemy front line with tanks. Its about keeping going once you punched through and preventing the enemy from ever reforming their ranks, but instead getting more and more disorganized until it turns into a rout that cannot be controlled anymore.

@Odysseus: The British had plenty of powerful bombers during the Battle of France, they just could not get them to where they are needed as fast as the Germans could. During the 2nd Battle of France after they learned their lessen allied air power was devastatingly effective.

 

[The Yogi]

When will the final Chapter XIX – Turn of the tide
Be posted in your own seperate thread

Oh. Yes, I might have forgot a few changes. Will fix.