The Eagle and The Lion - A History of the German Empire in the Revolutionary Wars

[Brasidas]

Yes that's what one would think. But in our history the monarchy was actually on the republicans side, at least until the communists took over leadership there. Since the republicans had won the pre-war election and were therefore "His majesties gouvernement" while the nationalists were rebels.

Completely wrong. There was civil disorder after the elections of 1931, which followed de Rivera's authoritarian rule. King Alfonso fled the country, as did de Rivera.

In 1936, one of de Rivera's cabinet was a vocal member of the opposition to the Popular Front. A fascist-aligned gang apparently murdered a socialist-aligned police officer, and in vengeance the ex-de Rivera minister was killed. Sanjuro, Mola, et al used this as the pretext for their rebellion.

The monarchists' lot was tied to de Rivera and the Falangalist movement, which in turn was tied to the Nationalists. The Nationalists were not dominated by the monarchists, but they were a part of it.

The Popular Front was not popular with the King.

 

[The Yogi]

Completely wrong. There was civil disorder after the elections of 1931, which followed de Rivera's authoritarian rule. King Alfonso fled the country, as did de Rivera.
...

You're completely correct, except that the dictator's name was Primo de Rivera; his full name was Miguel Primo de Rivera y Orbaneja. It's easy to make the mistake of thinking Primo was his Christian name. BTW he was the father of Falange-founder Miguel Angel Primo de Rivera.

 

[Neroon]

Completely wrong. There was civil disorder after the elections of 1931, which followed de Rivera's authoritarian rule. King Alfonso fled the country, as did de Rivera.

Must have been thinking of the wrong timeline :wacko: , whops.

Still in Yogi´s world where the monarchies have won WW1 Spain might still have a King at the outbreak of "his" Civil War.

 

[unmerged(10416)]

Must have been thinking of the wrong timeline :wacko: , whops.

Still in Yogi´s world where the monarchies have won WW1 Spain might still have a King at the outbreak of "his" Civil War.

Depends on how interlinked the fates of the Central Powers and Spain are... Spain was a politically messed up place even before WW1.

However, having a king in power who is scared of the reds in France would certainly move Spain closer to Germany in the 1920's.

But even if they were willing to spare more support than just friendly words and money, I think the French will not tolerate a German military presence in Spain. How much they will do about it probably depends on how much leverage (short of actual war) they can apply on Germany... I doubt there'll be a proxy war.

One other thing... Germany grabbed all those former French colonies after the war, how are these coming along? I don't see them having much trouble ruling the African colonies, where they just took over existing power structures and have only politically immature African tribesmen to rule. But in Indochina they have taken over a region that the French conquered by military force, and that has its own substantial traditions. You could say that the French fought for their right to rule over those regions, while the Germans have not yet asserted themselves violently yet, so they're in a weaker position vis-a-vis the locals than the French administrators were.

I could easily see the Southeast Asians (particularly the Vietnamese) giving them a lot of trouble. The Germans are unfamiliar with the local customs, the terrain and the climate, so they'd better not try to rule them with an iron fist... if they just play the usual "protector of the christians" thing, collect limited taxes and refrain from trying to influence things too much they could have an easy time there. However if they get funny ideas in their heads, like that they should properly Germanize the Vietnamese and that the Catholic Church over there should be replaced by a proper Protestant church then there would be rivers of blood. Imagine the Germans applying Herero style extermination strategies in southeast Asia... and the Vietminh giving them a run for their money...

You can argue whether the Herero extermination was a fluke of history or a symptom of genocidal tendencies in the German character before WW1. I'm personally not a fan of the whole "germans are murderers" theme, but there really were some sickening tendencies among German social thought at the time. They would probably have been nice colonial administrators as long as everything went ok but god help their victims if they ever lost their temper. Coupled with a near complete lack in colonial experience, that's imo what caused the colonial army to do what it dod to the Hereros... (drive them into the desert, kill any who try to escape and have them starve to death)

 

[unmerged(41995)]

The Germans certainly had a poor Colonial Report card - administratively They worked well, but their attitude to the "lower races" led them in a different direction to that of the British. While the British saw their colonies as "the white man's burden" the German's systematically eliminated any opposition. The colonies ran like well oiled brutal machines. (thinking of Western Africa in particular). I think German might have done OK in SE Asia though - Asian history was the story of one brutal dictator after another. Also they were established already with Eastern New Guinea et.al. The tropics so far from home were not so large an obstacle to colonial rule.

 

[unmerged(10416)]

It's true that they had a colony in New Guinea since the 1880's pr so, but that doesn't really count for southeast asian experience... firstly, New Guinea was a different climate (highlands, jungles) secondly it was populated by tribes who didn't have anything in the way of modern technology, communications or organization, and were thus easy to govern, and thirdly New Guinea was very remote and had IIRC less than a hundred or so full time German administrators, plus plantation settlements in some coastal areas.

Not comparable to Indochina, where they would have to deal with large societies who have had ample exposure to the modern world and where communications were a great deal easier, which works to your disadvantage if you're a small group trying to assert your domination over a couple million people. I don't see the Germans sending army corps to Vietnam to support their administrators there, at least not in the immediate postwar years when eastern Europe needed large garrisons to establish German rule. So my guess is that the Germans there were originally (1917-1922) ordered by Berlin to tread lightly and not upset things too much, and only then would Berlin start to show more interest in the exploitation of the new crown jewel among their colonies. That, in turn, can mean anything from iron fisted subjugation and aggressive de-Frenchfication to a sleazy economic penetration that leaves the French locals and the traditional local elites in power but sees to it that they do their business with Krupp, Siemens, IG Farben and the other cartels. Either way it can mean lots of things, both good and bad for Indochina.

And if the Germans show some restraint, they might actually learn a thing or two about cultural tolerance from all that exposure to foreign cultures. The prevailing views of Asians and non-Europeans in general was hopelessly naive and stereotypical back then... just like in most Euro societies. Instead of being a place where machoist young officers go and teach the natives proper respect for white men, Germany's new colonies could in the 1920's become places where young progressives go, to put new educational and economic ideas into practise which they can't try in the stiflingly conservative atmosphere back in Germany. (Pestalozzi teaching the Khmer? Bauhaus in Saigon? ) It could also become a place where war veterans unable to adapt to a peacetime society get sent on garrison duty, and where Fritz Haber's newest poison gases are tested on the rebellious locals who don't want to pay the head tax. I could see IG Farben developing Agent Orange 50 years early. Maybe Hitler even spent a few years there, introducing efficient "prisoner clearing camps" in the Laotian highlands.

 

[unmerged(55221)]

Ah, I have just spent a good 2 days reading through not only this entertaining and exceptionaly well researched AAR, but also the informative comments from many of my fellow readers. Really great stuff. One can only hope poor Hienz gets some attention for his doctrines sometime soon, a Germany without Blitzkrieg is well, just not Germany. *waves his little Kaiserriech flag and runs off*

 

[dublish]

Wow! Amazing AAR, I just read through the whole thing. Shame Germany won't have any panzers worth talking about for a terribly long time though.

3 concerns/questions/whatchamacallems, none of which deal with the short term.

1) The state of the Comintern military. I'd rather expected by this time some information on the divisions along the Franco-German and Russo-German borders. The outline of Red tank development leads me to believe that we may shortly see French panzers blitzing through Belgium in an effort to capture the industrial base of the Rhein/Ruhr valleys. I find the prospect of a French invasion of Germany disturbing to say the least.

2) The development of communism in Central America. Something about the way you described the coup in... Brazil I think? It seemed like you were expecting a host of Marxist/Leninist governments to spring up, and I can't help but suspect that you've written a few custom events to help that happen.

3) Probably least importantly (or most, depending on the way you look at it)...

GERMANY SET US UP TEH BOMB!!!!

No National Socialists kicking Jews out of civil positions means Europe has a ready supply of physicists like Teller, Szilard, Peierls, and even Einstein. Einstein was a pacifist, sure, but his letter to Roosevelt was instrumental in starting the Manhattan Project. If war with Russia is inevitable, and it certainly looks that way, I'd say Germany might have a bomb ready before 1945.

Just something to think about I guess...

 

[Lyon_Man]

On the subject of colonies...

Originally posted by Karl Martell
Imagine the Germans applying Herero style extermination strategies in southeast Asia... and the Vietminh giving them a run for their money...

From some research into the Belgian Congo, I'm pretty sure that most if not all of the European powers in Sub-Saharan Africa practiced some pretty brutal policies, though some were worse than others. As for the Vietminh, they weren't technically formed until 1941, but if the Germans perform in Indochina like they did in Tanganyika, it'd be possible to see a nucleus of what could eventually form a Vietminh in the story (helped along by Trotsky, perhaps?).

Finally, I wouldn't put it past the Germans to perhaps experiment with some type of poison gas in Indochina, though with the Kaiser somewhat more reformed after the death of his son, I'm not so sure that he would be up to the task (perhaps performed covertly by a man named Skorzeny?).

Just my humble opinions, of course. I love this kind of debate; thank you Yogi for starting this AAR! This is awesome!

 

[Brasidas]

...I don't see the Germans sending army corps to Vietnam to support their administrators there, at least not in the immediate postwar years when eastern Europe needed large garrisons to establish German rule. So my guess is that the Germans there were originally (1917-1922) ordered by Berlin to tread lightly and not upset things too much, and only then would Berlin start to show more interest in the exploitation of the new crown jewel among their colonies. That, in turn, can mean anything from iron fisted subjugation and aggressive de-Frenchfication to a sleazy economic penetration that leaves the French locals and the traditional local elites in power but sees to it that they do their business with Krupp, Siemens, IG Farben and the other cartels. Either way it can mean lots of things, both good and bad for Indochina.

Does anybody other than me have an ironic image in their heads right now? Picture a garrison force of French colonists and conservative emigres acting on behalf of the German government to enforce imperial rule in Indochina. A teensy bit like a France that used a predominantly German FFL there in OTL.

 

[unmerged(10416)]

Does anybody other than me have an ironic image in their heads right now? Picture a garrison force of French colonists and conservative emigres acting on behalf of the German government to enforce imperial rule in Indochina. A teensy bit like a France that used a predominantly German FFL there in OTL.

*enter mime with face painted white and a pickelhaube*
"In ze name of ze Kaiserrr, I order yooo to lay down ze weapons!"

It might be interesting to see what happens to colonialism in general, now that the French are largely out of the game. The British Empire is probably a lot stronger than it used to be in OTL 1936, its commerce undisturbed and its power unquestioned, but it's unclear what the German legacy in Asia and Africa will be. And I wonder whether the french might not use their still active connections into Southeast Asia to forment unrest there... Ho Chi Minh for example went to university in Paris in the 1920's.

 

[Brasidas]

Hmm...

Maybe he's stayed in Paris rather than set up shop in Guangzhou. Then again, if the Chinese Communists are looking for military advisers as in OTL, maybe he'll go to China in the 30's and fight against the Japanese and/or Nationalists.

 

[unmerged(41995)]

*enter mime with face painted white and a pickelhaube*
"In ze name of ze Kaiserrr, I order yooo to lay down ze weapons!"

It might be interesting to see what happens to colonialism in general, now that the French are largely out of the game. The British Empire is probably a lot stronger than it used to be in OTL 1936, its commerce undisturbed and its power unquestioned, but it's unclear what the German legacy in Asia and Africa will be. And I wonder whether the french might not use their still active connections into Southeast Asia to forment unrest there... Ho Chi Minh for example went to university in Paris in the 1920's.

The threat of a mime would certainly carry more weight than any poison gas!

I think your idea is right on the ball Karl - HoChiMinh has got to be getting active! With France and Trotsky both aiming to destaiblise the German hegemony

 

[Neroon]

I think you all are falling a little bit into the trap of assuming that nations are some sort of Borg-like collective sentient being that make decisions. It always come´s down to individuals.
In the case of German Indochina. If we assume that directly after the war the German colonial office is ordered to tread lightly, because of the aforementioned garrisioning of Eastern Europe taking priority, then i think Dr. Schnee would be a very likely candidate for the 1st German gouvernor there. If he stays in charge for a long time and his successor continues his policies, then Indochina will fare much better, than with a racist hardliner in charge, no matter what the official policy made in Berlin is.
Just consider how Taiwan fared (relatively speaking) under Japanese rule compared to poor Korea. Technically the colonial policy made in Tokyo was the same for both cases, but the local decision makers implemented things quite differently.

 

[unmerged(10426)]

Without being a little crass, balls to Indochina; I'm more interested in what effect Tsingtao will have on German policy once all hell breaks loose between China and Japan. Germany is really in the thick of it with that one. Considering Germany's considerable interests in China, I imagine they will be instinctively pro-Chinese, rather as they were in real life - but unlike real life, here they have an actual political presence and real vested interests in the region - and, as easily the premier European colonial power in East Asia, quite extensive ones, at that.

I get the distinct impression that Japan and Germany will not be the best of chums in a few years' time.

 

[Brasidas]

Was there ever an Anglo-Japanese alliance in this TL?

 

[unmerged(10416)]

Without being a little crass, balls to Indochina; I'm more interested in what effect Tsingtao will have on German policy once all hell breaks loose between China and Japan. Germany is really in the thick of it with that one. Considering Germany's considerable interests in China, I imagine they will be instinctively pro-Chinese, rather as they were in real life - but unlike real life, here they have an actual political presence and real vested interests in the region - and, as easily the premier European colonial power in East Asia, quite extensive ones, at that.

I get the distinct impression that Japan and Germany will not be the best of chums in a few years' time.

Well, Yogi mentioned that Japan renewed the alliance treaty with Britain, didn't he? Complications, complications...

I would hardly classify Germany as the permier colonial power in Asia, though... Britain owns India, Singapore and Hong Kong, and has a more powerful commercial and military presence there.

 

[unmerged(10416)]

Was there ever an Anglo-Japanese alliance in this TL?

There was, starting before WW1. Yogi only diverges in 1914 so it started as in OTL. I think I remember him mentioning that Japan and Britain are on better terms than they were historically. However it's unclear on what kind of trajectory Japan's ambitions vis-a-vis the Euro powers will lead them... Japan/Germany/Britain, that's a complicated triangle, with China in the middle, coveted by all.

 

[unmerged(10416)]

I think you all are falling a little bit into the trap of assuming that nations are some sort of Borg-like collective sentient being that make decisions. It always come´s down to individuals.
In the case of German Indochina. If we assume that directly after the war the German colonial office is ordered to tread lightly, because of the aforementioned garrisioning of Eastern Europe taking priority, then i think Dr. Schnee would be a very likely candidate for the 1st German gouvernor there. If he stays in charge for a long time and his successor continues his policies, then Indochina will fare much better, than with a racist hardliner in charge, no matter what the official policy made in Berlin is.
Just consider how Taiwan fared (relatively speaking) under Japanese rule compared to poor Korea. Technically the colonial policy made in Tokyo was the same for both cases, but the local decision makers implemented things quite differently.

Who is Dr. Schnee?

 

[The Yogi]

Dr Schnee was the Governeror of German East Africa in 1914. The administration of that colony (beggining before Dr Schnee with the first Governor in the 19th century) was apparently very enlightened and earned a fierce loyalty from the native population.

Regarding the anglo-japanese relations, they are quite a bit cooler than in 1914, given that the Anglo-Japanese alliance was canceled over the Japanese invasion of Manchuria in 1931 when Japan also left the League of Nations, (which is Big Deal to the Anglo-German partnership - they and America created it!)