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Martin_Mortyry

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I love playing as the Netherlands - they're the most comfortable option in the whole game: you have powerful government type, you can colonise, have great trade bonuses and you don't need to blob to be #1! I love them so much I even decided to read a little on their history. I realised there are a few things that should be changed about the Dutch republic to make the gameplay a little closer to how it worked historically:
  1. Orangist candidates should all be from the same dynasty - every time you choose an orangist(weird name considering you won't always get von Nassau on your throne), he will be of different dynasty than the previous candidate. Historically only branches of house Nassau(to be exact Oranje-Nassau and Nassau-Diez) ruled as stadhouders and later kings of the Netherlands. Solution: once an orangist candidate is chosen, his dynasty is ought to rule the United Provinces every time the orangists win.
    I know there's an event about the title becoming hereditary but the declaration was actually just a formality, as Willem III was de facto the fifth(!) stadhouder from Nassau dynasty! The event should in this case give some bonuses instead.
  2. Stadhouder and Grand Pensionary - I'm not sure if the game allows it but it's dumb to be calling both orangist and statist candidates grand pensionaries. Orangists should be named stadhouders and statists should become grand pensionaries - easy!
  3. No forced abdication - if a kingdom forms the Netherlands and decides to change its gov to Dutch Republic, the election shouldn't start until this ruler dies. Alternatively the election would start between him as the orangist candidate and some statist. If the former king had an heir, the game should also remember him and his stats, to make him the next orangist candidate.
  4. Personal Unions - Again, I hope the game mechanics allow it. I've already written about this issue in another thread, but it's worth repeating. The United Provinces controlled by orangists should be able to get in personal unions with monarchies. This has historcial basis(glorious revolution), can have interesting outcomes and will encourage people to have orangists in control of the country.
  5. Change orangist bonuses - What does being orangist give you? You get armies bigger by a quarter - that's quite nice! You get a bit lower stability cost - not bad, not good either. You also lose republican tradition - AAH, bollocks! It's objectively worse than statist government, especially if statists were in control before. To make things more equal, there should be some additional military modifier for the orangist government, for example +10% morale. If this makes statists look too weak, their bonus to naval force limit and/or trade power could be increased.
And now, the part you've all been waiting for:
6. The Dutch Revolt
What a mess of an event! It forces the AI to release the Netherlands and fight them, not taking into account if the country accepted Dutch culture and if the Lower Countries were of heretic belief! In case of human, game spawn large stacks of rebels, again with considering neither acceptance of culture nor religion, from 1550 to 1650 - 100 BLOODY YEARS! There are many ways of implementing this event in a much more transparent way. I think the best solution would be making a disaster resulting in the Netherlands declaring their independence.
  • Prerequirements:
    -owns at least 3 provinces of Dutch culture
    -is not a subject nation
    -doesn't have a capital in the Low Countries
    -year is at least 1550
  • Progress starts:
    -average autonomy in the Low Countries is lower than 75%
    -country owns the biggest amount of Dutch cultured provinces
  • Monthly Progress:
    -Country is from Germanic culture group: -0,5% monthly
    -Dutch is not an accepted culture: +1% monthly
    -for every owned Dutch, Felmish or Wallonian province with heretic or heathen religion: +0,25% monthly
    -If ruler has diplomatic skill below 3: +0,5% monthly
    -if ruler has administrative skill below 3: +0,5% monthly
    -if stability is below 0: +1% monthly
    -legitimacy below 50: +0,75% monthly
  • can be stopped by:
    -ongoing disaster
    -One of the following must be true:
    • *No province owned in the Netherlands has a heretic/heathen religion
    • *Country's tolerance of religion in the Netherlands is at at least 1

When progress is increasing, events starting early revolts or increasing/decreasing the progress can happen.

If the progress reaches 100% the event "Netherlands declare independence!" is triggered and disaster starts with the following effects:
  • Every province with Dutch culture becomes part of the Netherlands (Flemish and Wallonian provinces can join as well depending on the former overlord's development and acceptance of these cultures)
  • Revolt risk in every owned Flemish and Wallonian province: +10
Disaster ends either when:
  • at least one of the following must be true:
    -Netherlands cease to exist
    -Country which formerly owned the Low Countries recognises NED's independence via event after the war
    -The country doesn't own any province in the Low Countries or Picardy with Dutch, Walloon or Flemish culture.

I think that's it. There hasn't been a disaster releasing another country but I think it should be doable? Model of "independence disaster" could be reused for such historical events as Kazakh revolt, Cossack uprising, possibly formation of the Mughals and Maratha revolt(although I know too little about the last one to really tell).

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on Dutch history! That's one of the reasons why I didn't suggest any straightforward changes towards how the republic should work. These are just a few things that have been bugging me for some time(especially the Dutch revolt, brrr!).
 
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Me_

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I generally agree, sans some minor quibbles. The Dutch Revolt in its current state is quite revolting in how hamfistedly it railoads the game. It punishes everyone but the players who waddle through code for taking over territory that any unsuspecting player would want. That is, until they experience its horrors.
 

Dutchman251

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I, as a native Dutchman, and as such thoroughly educated in history, agree in general with your suggestions. However, I have the following remarks:
1. The dynasty should be 'Van Oranje'. That's how they were called (actually Van Oranje-Nassau, but that would be to long). The reason is that Willem von Nassau, got the title 'prince' and the fief of Orange (a principality in France, roughly half of the in-game Avignon province. Louis XIV took it from the Oranges in 1672). That's also why his followers are called orangists.
By the way, the current king is in fact the 9th Willem ruling (not really anymore) the Netherlands.
5. It makes a load of sense to give the Orangists negative republican tradition, since the stadhouder always was trying to become king (which king Willem the first got, but only after the congress of Vienna). And it simply negates the +1 rep tradition that the government form has, so I see no need for a buff.

And finally, the revolt: I like it how it is so overpowered with rebels, that the Netherlands nearly always form.
 
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Grand Historian

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And finally, the revolt: I like it how it is so overpowered with rebels, that the Netherlands nearly always form.

Part of the reason it was so historically OP was because of the differences between the Spanish and Dutch and the mutual resentment between the two (not to mention the Spanish did a magnificent job of alienating any of the Dutch sympathetic to them). If some difference, such as religious denomination or cultural discrimination - are overcome or don't arise, I don't see why the revolt shouldn't take longer to trigger or reflect the dynamism of EU4. But I do agree that it would be much better serviced as a disaster - really, when was the last time we got a new disaster?
 
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Martin_Mortyry

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Thanks for reply! I've been waiting for some Dutchman(and what a fitting nickname you have!) to comment on my suggestion. :D
1. The dynasty should be 'Van Oranje'. That's how they were called (actually Van Oranje-Nassau, but that would be to long). The reason is that Willem von Nassau, got the title 'prince' and the fief of Orange (a principality in France, roughly half of the in-game Avignon province. Louis XIV took it from the Oranges in 1672). That's also why his followers are called orangists.
By the way, the current king is in fact the 9th Willem ruling (not really anymore) the Netherlands.
I know, I mentioned that. :) The problem is, I don't really want this dynasty to be forced upon the tag, at least if it was formed by a monarchy. Why would former Duchy of, say, Holland renounce their ruling dynasty for some noble just because he's the duke of Orange and Nassau?

5. It makes a load of sense to give the Orangists negative republican tradition, since the stadhouder always was trying to become king (which king Willem the first got, but only after the congress of Vienna). And it simply negates the +1 rep tradition that the government form has, so I see no need for a buff.
I don't say orangists should lose the -1 rep tradition but putting it at lasting 0 increase for a period of at least one stadhouder's rule could be quite disastrous if it was combined with some nasty events. Besides, I think orangist party isn't encouraging enough even though stadhouders' rule was historically overall better than the regents', excluding Willem IV and V(+ Willem V was pretty idle and regents held de facto power during his reign of what I know).

And finally, the revolt: I like it how it is so overpowered with rebels, that the Netherlands nearly always form.
The revolt itself is alright in my opinion, its inevitability and randomness are bugging me the most.
 

Corvus917

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I like these tweaks, most of them at least. Not entirely sure if a 10% morale boost is necessary, but I kind of like the idea of making the Dutch Revolt a disaster of sorts. Definitely like all the rest of the tweaks, especially the more flavorful ones like dynasties and ruler titles. I've been going a little mad in frustration that not one of my Orangist Stadtholders had been of the van Oranje dynasty.
 

Dutchman251

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I know, I mentioned that. :) The problem is, I don't really want this dynasty to be forced upon the tag, at least if it was formed by a monarchy. Why would former Duchy of, say, Holland renounce their ruling dynasty for some noble just because he's the duke of Orange and Nassau?
Firstly, Holland and Flanders are counties, not duchies. That's an ingame naming mistake that applies to a lot of counties in the HRE and France. Secondly, the last count of the Netherlands was the duke of Burgundy... So if they get someone new, it could as well be a Von Nassau. The Dutch Republic already seems to get all kind of German rulers instead of Dutch ones, but maybe that is bugged. And since their party is already called Orangists, I don't see a problem with always having a von Nassau.

I don't say orangists should lose the -1 rep tradition but putting it at lasting 0 increase for a period of at least one stadhouder's rule could be quite disastrous if it was combined with some nasty events. Besides, I think orangist party isn't encouraging enough even though stadhouders' rule was historically overall better than the regents', excluding Willem IV and V(+ Willem V was pretty idle and regents held de facto power during his reign of what I know).
Well, the more capable ones of the regents were also good rulers, like Johan de Witt - who ruled during the 'the 1st Stattholderless Era'. Willem II was also not very succesful, but since he died so fast, we don't know how capable he actually could have been.
 
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Martin_Mortyry

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A few things happening in the game that I feel should be changed:
  1. If NED declares independence when religious leagues form, they will be instantly jumped by every member of catholic league in case of splitting from one of them.
  2. Dutch minors will get Dutch rebels if they're unable to join the republic e.g. because they're too big. That's extremely dumb and should not occur.
  3. (not a bug but should be changed too)The fact of everyone getting revolts just because they own a province in the low countries is pretty stupid. If the owner is not eligible for The Dutch Revolt firing and either accepts/follows faith of their Netherland provinces or accept their culture, the likelihood of revolt should be much lower/disappear. If the owner accepts both religion and culture, the revolts shouldn't occur at all.
Firstly, Holland and Flanders are counties, not duchies.
Ah yes, count - that's the word I've been missing while writing the OP, thank you! I was aware of the status I just forgot its name in English. ^^' Very shameful since I'm taking on English Studies...
 
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