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lordreaven448

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I called it. I said back when Paradox announced this new DLC policy it would not fly well with some people. And here we are.

Now, on my take on this. Does the Mongol facepack, or coat of arms affect gameplay? No (unless you like to mess with genetics and have a Mongol England :p). If/When Paradox goes the EA route then I will complain (IE, day 1 DLC that affects gameplay). I will not delude myself into thinking DLC will go away (DLC had such promise, but sadly MS messed that up with those stupid Halo Map packs).But I will give Paradox a chance with their new method.
 

leggbros

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A) You're right, people in businesses never make mistakes. Which is why I never have to spend time arguing with HR over getting my tax forms and insurance paperwork sent to me again, because they never would have made the mistake of misspelling my street.
B) If you had the right to do whatever you pleased with your software, then you'd put your supplier out of business, since you could just resell it to whomever you want.
C) I'm curious why you are making up hypothetical specifics for *my* hypothetical.
A) A single intern completely destroying every trace of a program across an entire company is essentially impossible. But you're right it is totally the same thing as a spelling mistake therefore mistakes happen.
B) You would put them out of business... but I don't understand what the difference is between a physical copy and a copy with "a record of the transaction" is so just treated it like I thought it would be regardless of the effects of the software company. Can one not have a record of the transaction with a physical copy?
C) Because you made it seem like it would obviously be alright in your hypothetical and I made it seem like it would be a disaster. You give one side so I gave the other side.
 

unmerged(193360)

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They could have charged EUR 60 for the game without changing anything. It's all up to them to set all the prices and costs and what is the optimal amount of money they can make. The way they set it up is the way they think makes them the most money. If you did pay EUR 60 for "everything" (I assume that mean all the DLC that will be developed for the game in its lifetime) then you likely would be getting a much better value for your dollar than you otherwise would have buying it piecemeal btw
Not really. For some reason many game buyers have a psychological barrier to paying more than the "standard" amount for a game. If you try to charge 60 for something people are used to paying 40 for, loads of people will simply forget about buying, without even considering if the quality of the game is unusually high and warrants the extra price.
 

Captain Gars

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The part about Danevang was what was new to me but in the end it doesn't change anything.

How so?

It was a decision to make money off the community with elements of giving the community more content. The latter doesn't really outweigh the former in terms of whats good for the consumer in my eyes but I guess people disagree with me.

Everything we do is about "making money off the community". That's our whole business. Otherwise we'll be closing down the shop. And the more money we make the better for the community in the sense that we can make more games, and more polished games, something that's hopefully has started to show with the progression from VicII to Sengoku to CKII.

You could have expanded your budget to include that and things beyond but you didn't.

You seem to have a very strange view on what a budget is. "Expanding" the budget means a higher cost and more risk, and in the end, as someone pointed out, a higher price of the end product. Are you saying you want us to charge more for the base game than 40 dollars? Because I bet most players don't agree.

What is it that's so objectionable about what I'm saying?

The simple fact that you don't seem to understand economics 101. I tried to lay it out as simple as I could but obviously I'm not succeeding.
 

Vordus

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I called it. I said back when Paradox announced this new DLC policy it would not fly well with some people. And here we are.

Now, on my take on this. Does the Mongol facepack, or coat of arms affect gameplay? No (unless you like to mess with genetics and have a Mongol England :p). If/When Paradox goes the EA route then I will complain (IE, day 1 DLC that affects gameplay). I will not delude myself into thinking DLC will go away (DLC had such promise, but sadly MS messed that up with those stupid Halo Map packs).But I will give Paradox a chance with their new method.

Aslong as it doesnt effect gameplay or extend the map etc etc I dont care, just useless for me in that case
 
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Nuril

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/facepalm

It's funny that you think you're the mature one.

I see. So basically what you want is to do whatever you want, whenever, however, to whomever you please without being held accountable except where you feel you should be help accountable. Sounds like you're an anarchist.

Nope. I never said that I don't want there to be a state (in fact I said the opposite, stating I believe such a system is impossible) and it's not something I desire to be true. That doesn't change the fact that it's illusory legitimacy if you claim it's anything other than "We've got more people than you, so we'll beat the shit out of you if you don't do as we say".

Besides, you never answered any of the real inquiries I made on that point, because I'm fairly certain that in a majority of cases you do the exact same thing, since you don't have a clue what the law actually says. It's impossible to. It's just an excuse to get rid of you after the fact, but what actually keeps you doing the right thing is.. nothing. It's just you doing the right thing. Plenty of research shows that punishment that is not immediately administered after the misdeed isn't effective at all. It's the same reason you can't beat your children without a connection to something they just did to make them anything other than abusive people. Imprisoning or fining people outside of the time-frame doesn't make them more of a good person than before, it's either that they intended to do it, they didn't know or that your law is bad. If it's the first then unless you catch them in the act then it's a poor psychological conditioning, if it's the second then you accomplish nothing and if it's the third it shouldn't be there in the first place.

Also, McCarthy called, he wanted to congratulate you on inventing that brilliant new argument of trying to shame someone through association.

If you don't want to be bound to contracts which hold you legally accountable within the country which you reside, then move to a country that does not recognize contracts or something. Either way, that "Social Contract" you presume you didn't sign...that's actually what you sign by being a citizen of a country with laws. If you decide, when you're all grown up and hairy, that you don't like that "contract" anymore, you're free to move to another country that has a social contract you agree with. I'm certain Sweden isn't going to stop you.

Nonsense. I never signed a contract to be a citizen either. If you're saying it's on a voluntary basis then you can't just ignore the step behind what you're actually saying. It's forced upon you without your permission at birth. Do you really think it's controversial to say that? Surely that much is obvious. Also you make an immense amount of presumptions in the latter half. That I, or anyone, would have the resources to move to a completely different country for ideological reasons, that we'd happily abandon our homeland just to let them win ("Love it or leave it"), that there is such a place, that minors/women/minorities by that very social contract could lack that right, that the world would be better off as the Confederate States of America (which very much followed the "States' rights" you're proposing), etc.

I never said I disagree with the existence of a Social Contract, but don't pretend that it isn't something just made up to try to legitimize government authority after it's already in effect. It's essentially a return of the Divine Right of Kings, but for Majority Rule. It's an improvement, and there isn't an indication we can do a whole lot better, but that doesn't change what it is.

At any rate, whether you like it or not you signed a contract with Paradox Interactive to play their games and the laws in your country hold you accountable to it. You can rail against it all you want, but it doesn't change reality.

Ah, so we can vote on what's real now, then. That's cool. I guess America decided that evolution and global warming isn't true by voting, so we can put those arguments behind us as well. It's not like it's just a bunch of people with an opinion using government resources to push their own pet ideas or anything. Nope, just an intrinsic fact of reality.


The simple fact that you don't seem to understand economics 101. I tried to lay it out as simple as I could but obviously I'm not succeeding.

Actually I'm more sympathetic to several parts of DLC development by this point than even just a couple of weeks back. Just because it doesn't convince everyone doesn't mean no-one is listening.
 

Keanon

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And I said I can see why they would. Why do you object? I'm trying to help you.

How are you helping me? I want DLC, and I'll pay whatever I can afford for them or I'll wait till next month to buy them. I love these games, and all you are doing is ticking off the developers with your negative attitude that represents the cheapskate part of this community.
 

Meanmanturbo

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It's funny that you think you're the mature one.



Nope. I never said that I don't want there to be a state (in fact I said the opposite, stating I believe such a system is impossible) and it's not something I desire to be true. That doesn't change the fact that it's illusory legitimacy if you claim it's anything other than "We've got more people than you, so we'll beat the shit out of you if you don't do as we say".

Besides, you never answered any of the real inquiries I made on that point, because I'm fairly certain that in a majority of cases you do the exact same thing, since you don't have a clue what the law actually says. It's impossible to. It's just an excuse to get rid of you after the fact, but what actually keeps you doing the right thing is.. nothing. It's just you doing the right thing. Plenty of research shows that punishment that is not immediately administered after the misdeed isn't effective at all. It's the same reason you can't beat your children without a connection to something they just did to make them anything other than abusive people. Imprisoning or fining people outside of the time-frame doesn't make them more of a good person than before, it's either that they intended to do it, they didn't know or that your law is bad. If it's the first then unless you catch them in the act then it's a poor psychological conditioning, if it's the second then you accomplish nothing and if it's the third it shouldn't be there in the first place.



Nonsense. I never signed a contract to be a citizen either. If you're saying it's on a voluntary basis then you can't just ignore the step behind what you're actually saying. It's forced upon you without your permission at birth. Do you really think it's controversial to say that? Surely that much is obvious. Also you make an immense amount of presumptions in the latter half. That I, or anyone, would have the resources to move to a completely different country for ideological reasons, that we'd happily abandon our homeland just to let them win ("Love it or leave it"), that there is such a place, that minors/women/minorities by that very social contract could lack that right, that the world would be better off as the Confederate States of America (which very much followed the "States' rights" you're proposing), etc.

I never said I disagree with the existence of a Social Contract, but don't pretend that it isn't something just made up to try to legitimize government authority after it's already in effect. It's essentially a return of the Divine Right of Kings, but for Majority Rule. It's an improvement, and there isn't an indication we can do a whole lot better, but that doesn't change what it is.



Ah, so we can vote on what's real now, then. That's cool. I guess America decided that evolution and global warming isn't true by voting, so we can put those arguments behind us as well. It's not like it's just a bunch of people with an opinion using government resources to push their own pet ideas or anything. Nope, just an intrinsic fact of reality.




Actually I'm more sympathetic to several parts of DLC development by this point than even just a couple of weeks back. Just because it doesn't convince everyone doesn't mean no-one is listening.

While an interesting discussion, this is something that really belongs in the OT, it looks like this thread will be closed soon. Not that I feel that closing this thread would be a bad idea since it is going nowhere.

edit

On topic, one of the really nice things about CK2 is that it feels so focused and tight, all mechanics work well except from some small balancing issues. I can not help but feel that this was made possible by putting all development time into the important parts and still feel that all cool nice to have ideas that the devs thought of could still be used later as dlc's.
 
Last edited:

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I tried to lay it out as simple as I could but obviously I'm not succeeding.

Frankly you shouldn't have to explain such basic concepts to a member of the community. Paradox has been very open and forthcoming with the community about the experimental nature of the DLC model, and any reasonably intelligent person knows that for us to continue to enjoy this unique flavor of games the developers need a stream of income.

The dev time of CK2 was fairly long, and as well-received as it has been the market for these games isn't quite large enough to fund Paradox' level of support indefinitely. I'm hoping we see some content along the lines of what turned EU3 into In Nomine over the years, because that level of support is definitely worth funding.

Paradox has never treated this community like a cash-cow, that's what they started the publishing business for. ;)
 

lordreaven448

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Aslong as it doesnt effect gameplay or extend the map etc etc I dont care, just useless for me in that case
Well, there will be gameplay affecting DLC. But from my understanding, it will be patched in. So for example, playable Muslims. What I understand of Paradox's DLC plan is they will release it in a patch, so all systems will be in the game, but we won't be able to play them without buying it. So let's say you have no intention of playing muslims at all, the system mechanics WILL be in place, but you will not have to buy it to play them, so your game still get's fleshed out, but you don't have to buy anything.

Atleast that's how I understand their DLC/patching policy, if I'm wrong please correct me.
 

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While an interesting discussion, this is something that really belongs in the OT, it looks like this thread will be closed soon. Not that I feel that closing this thread would be a bad idea since it is going nowhere.

Fair enough. Not much of a point on continuing on that off-topic tangent. Doubt he'll answer anything seriously anyway, what-with his "/facepalm"s and deleting all of the text to just ridicule everything with "..very funny".
 

Meanmanturbo

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Well, there will be gameplay affecting DLC. But from my understanding, it will be patched in. So for example, playable Muslims. What I understand of Paradox's DLC plan is they will release it in a patch, so all systems will be in the game, but we won't be able to play them without buying it. So let's say you have no intention of playing muslims at all, the system mechanics WILL be in place, but you will not have to buy it to play them, so your game still get's fleshed out, but you don't have to buy anything.

Atleast that's how I understand their DLC/patching policy, if I'm wrong please correct me.

You mean that the mechanics for the Muslims will be in but you will have to buy it to play them I presume;)?
 

unmerged(175287)

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Perhaps, but I think it would be better to let people express their opinion and their insecurity about the dlc business. Not that I don't doubt there might be one or two simply trolling.
 

Gutie

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Agreed.

dlc-mona-lisa-1.jpg

^FACT.
(ASIDE...kinda) Now I've no problem with OPTIONAL DLC which you DONT HAVE TO pay for. But if something like the pagan/muslim playability is made DLC (which imo I dont care about) a LOT of people will rage, but not me.

As for something like more portraits and versatility, cool, I'm fine with it as DLC. But if it doesn't have an editor or something that gives the DNA output, there's no way I'd pay $5 much less 10. (But if it DID have something that gave DNA output, I'd drop $10 without a second thought and maybe $20).
But anyhow, given I've not enjoyed a game in it's 1.00 version like this in at least 5 years, I've got nothing much to whine about <offtopic>apart from fellow faction members are easier to war than heretics, which makes no sense imo. </offtopic>
 

Ioustinos

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Posting as a person who has no issue with Paradox's DLC policy, or really any DLC policy for that matter, and who will happily continue to shell out cash for Paradox products for the indeterminate future.




That's it. I just feel like the people who are happy with everything don't get enough representation in threads like these. Everything's cool! We'll be over here playing CK2 if you need us.
 

leggbros

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Because it gives me insight into the timeline and how things went down. It tells me when it was decided to make the DLC and what would be done with it.

Everything we do is about "making money off the community". That's our whole business. Otherwise we'll be closing down the shop. And the more money we make the better for the community in the sense that we can make more games, and more polished games, something that's hopefully has started to show with the progression from VicII to Sengoku to CKII.
Right. I'm sure if all Paradox fans gave you all their worldly possessions you could make some pretty epic games. But I should have said more money off the community as I guess I have have to explain in the next paragraph. BTW does 100% of profits go towards further CK2 development? Or even reinvested back to Paradox itself?

You seem to have a very strange view on what a budget is. "Expanding" the budget means a higher cost and more risk, and in the end, as someone pointed out, a higher price of the end product. Are you saying you want us to charge more for the base game than 40 dollars? Because I bet most players don't agree.
To quote a fellow by the name of Captain Gars...

Captain Gars said:
Would increasing the budget to do this additional task increase the number of sold copies to make up for it? We didn't believe it would.
How is what I said strange? It was almost exactly what you said! And I said you were right it obviously wouldn't make up for the cost if you included it in the base game but you could certainly extract more money by offering it as day 1 DLC. Also that is obviously a [non-truth] when you say that the end product would cost more. I guess every Paradox game for years now has magically worked out to cost $39.99? If you added even one more event to any of those games it would have cost $40.13? Are you going to retroactively charge me when you add the Taiping rebellion to AHD? And how can you even do that? Don't you need revenue at all times for every action? You know very well that if you had included Mongol faces it would not have needed to change the price of this game. You would have made slightly less money as a company so you said no and instead charged people or got them to buy the pre-order when they otherwise wouldn't have.

If you sell a game for $40 and it cost $20 to make, market etc. you would earn a profit of $20. If you threw in Mongol faces and it cost an extra $1 to make then the costs would be $21 and you would earn a profit of $19. Understand? You didn't have to raise prices in that incredibly simple example.

Paradox can make a game that costs exactly $39.98 to develop, market and distribute plus any other costs and you will go on to make another game.

These are all assuming we know exactly how many games will be sold of course.

The simple fact that you don't seem to understand economics 101. I tried to lay it out as simple as I could but obviously I'm not succeeding.
You were the one that (I assume knowingly because that really is basic) gave a false scenario where prices would go up. Why did you do that?

@Moltke so I guess I'm not reasonably intelligent? He didn't have to explain it.

Someone can care to explain why it is ok to question my intelligence and understanding without giving any evidence that I lack either of those? If people just say what they want to say without looking at what has been said then I will add my voice to the list of people saying this should be closed.
 

leggbros

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How are you helping me? I want DLC, and I'll pay whatever I can afford for them or I'll wait till next month to buy them. I love these games, and all you are doing is ticking off the developers with your negative attitude that represents the cheapskate part of this community.
Maybe you wouldn't have to pay more and wait till next month if they were cheaper. Do you not care about that? (That is completely unfounded on my part since I still don't know if it will be more costly for the community to get the DLC than an expansion but you are kind of advancing me to that hypothetical future with this). The developer is not not going to make DLC because I complained about day 1 DLC or the DLC system in general. Don't worry.
 

Ethan194

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I've bought lots of DLC for a lot of different kinds of games and I've got no issue with it but i would rather it was not £10 pounds for something cosmetic but playable Muslim/Pagan DLC then that would be very reasonably but people need to give paradox some credit there DLC is quite cheap. And is given more TLC than most developers do after release.