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DerKomtur

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Why is everybody calling this game balanced? Did Paradox evaluate a large number of games like Blizzard could do with Warcraft 3, where the results of ladder games are uploaded to a central server?
Balance: GER can easily take UK, and even without can overrun USSR. It's not just a player vs AI thing, defending USSR vs GER AI is reportedly hard. Are strategic bombers balanced? Submarines?
Oh, I can mod it myself. But I don't have the capability to do huge test series whether my mod balances the game.

I think balancing the game is a value added (Wertschöpfung), it's the job of paid professionals, e.g. Paradox. Who says they cannot make money by it?
 

Chromos

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my opinion:

HoI3 is still broken untill PI fix incredibly retarded supply system and just as stupid naval combat system.

Check out the latest Beta-patch then..
Maybe it includes what you want.. ;)

Kind regards,
Chromos
 

jju_57

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Why is everybody calling this game balanced? Did Paradox evaluate a large number of games like Blizzard could do with Warcraft 3, where the results of ladder games are uploaded to a central server?
Balance: GER can easily take UK, and even without can overrun USSR. It's not just a player vs AI thing, defending USSR vs GER AI is reportedly hard. Are strategic bombers balanced? Submarines?
Oh, I can mod it myself. But I don't have the capability to do huge test series whether my mod balances the game.

I think balancing the game is a value added (Wertschöpfung), it's the job of paid professionals, e.g. Paradox. Who says they cannot make money by it?

Maybe you need better reading comprehension. Balanced was in reference to the def/toughness misses issue. The UNITS are balanced in reference to combat with one another. That is not the same thing as the nations being balanced.
 

Saranis

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Why is everybody calling this game balanced? Did Paradox evaluate a large number of games like Blizzard could do with Warcraft 3, where the results of ladder games are uploaded to a central server?
Balance: GER can easily take UK, and even without can overrun USSR. It's not just a player vs AI thing, defending USSR vs GER AI is reportedly hard. Are strategic bombers balanced? Submarines?
Oh, I can mod it myself. But I don't have the capability to do huge test series whether my mod balances the game.

I think balancing the game is a value added (Wertschöpfung), it's the job of paid professionals, e.g. Paradox. Who says they cannot make money by it?

History was never balanced, why should a game based on history be?
 

unmerged(169080)

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For my humble 5 cents and in the interest of customer feedback to Paradox.

I've been watching these boards for months after happily paying full dollar for HOI3, and full price for the SF add on too which was going to "solve" some of my concerns. And the Sprites pack too, full price, quite happily, all in the knowledge that there were "issues" with the game. Call me an optimist but I like to support the product. And it is a great game, so full credit to Paradox there, for about 8 to 10 hours with most countries I find. But everytime I get into a game something rolls out with a QA issue to change the game fundamently. I have never got past late 1940 except for one game as the US when I just let time roll on. And I've been playing on and off for 18 months!!!!!

Most recently the Diplomacy issue has really annoyed me by changing my whole Balkans policy as Germany or Romania. How the heck did such a fundamental amendment (Neutrality) not get tested in the Patch on at least the big countries. As Germany in particular after 3 months, Italy is 9 times out of 10 allied to Hungary and Albania and asking Germany continually for same (well, 9 times out of the 10 1936 starts I did anyway). This issue was found straight away in January I think, it was almost the day after the Patch release, and still no official Patch to fix.

I know many will say there a Beta for that, but I'm personally just not that skilled to follow instructions that say "don't use this unless you know what your doing", so I wait and wait and wait for the next official Patch. Some will argue that these skills should be in everyones armoury of skills, but clearly Paradox acknowledges that their market needs official Patches (otherwise why release them) so lets not get into the debate of Beta's being good enough for all. The key point being that the amendment was contained in an official Patch, so its not unreasonable to assume the customer needs it corrected with another official patch.

In the meantime the boards are filled with all the new toys (some very good ones by the way) due out in "another" add on, FTM.

What I find interesting is that in 1 day, more than 2,000+ views of the 2.04f Beta patch, and in 2 months 23,000+ views of FTM Dairies.

In my mind, those statistics are saying to me more customers are looking for the current game to be fixed than new rollouts. I think I recall the "views" of Patch 2.04e was around 75,000. (happy to be corrected though) But I don't seem to hear very much from Paradox on the subject of Patches. Or more importantly, don't seem to see any rapid action on Patches. Put those statistics alongside the initial post here and it paints a picture.

I suspect the vast majority of HOI players are like me, and sit silently waiting for some confidence that the "next" patch will enable me to revisit the game. We check the boards for anything marked "Patch" and then move on to some other product when the post doesn't solve our problems. And every month a few more don't come back to the boards to check as they have moved on to other products that meet their entertainment needs.

And lets be brutally honest, Paradox has a commercial goal here. That is to make money from meeting the entertainment needs of a wider and wider market. They are not a charity. So it is not in their interest to lose a customer when they perceive their needs have not been met. It is also (generally) not profitable to meet the needs of a small segment of the market only. If they are not growing their business, the competition is overtaking them. I just don't buy the economic equation of its more cost effective to sell a new game than maintain a current one. Its like a poor waitress experience serving a great steak at your restaruant with a great wine. You might make your margin on the product each sale, but sooner or later the customer heads off to somewhere to have a better dining experience. Then you make nothing.

So what really irks me is seeing Posts like this initial one (well not so much seeing it, but more that Klewer felt he needed to write it). That for a company with some really good ideas and games, the perception (and I stress this word "perception" here, some will and have already argued otherwise) of poor customer service will probably mean Paradox never unlocks all the value (read profits) it can from its maket and products. Which means I will miss out on all the future games that I would happily pay full price for.

Some will say it's a non issue, just one game of many Paradox do, but I see the same issue with EU3 (Naval upkeep and Horde expansion rates amended in a Patch).

So Paradox please, improve the QA with the next Patch and the FTM rollout. If there is a Patch required for FTM, we all know that s**t happens, tell us when it will be done by (I always find it amusing a company can say a new product is due out X week of Y, but cannot commit to a Patch release date for an existing product) and put some resources into it as a priority.

Rebuild some confidence with your customers and protect your future revenue so we can buy all the great games your going to make in the future.

Thanks

One of your still paying customers
 

Ksyr

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My test is this: how many hours do I get out of Paradox games for how much money? The only person who comes close is Sid, and the only way to do better is to go way back in time and get a refrigerator box as a gift.

Paradox games can be a bit disappointing on release, but their support over the long haul is amazing. I had fun with HoI3 early on, Vicky2 was fun right out of the box for 40-50 game years (and beyond that for a bit, if you like killing commies). I'm looking forward to playing the Polish government-in-exile in FTM, I can't imagine any similar anticipation of anyone else's games.

Seriously, do the math. Add up what you've spent on Paradox games/expansions/DLC, even the ones you didn't like, and approximate how many hours you've played them. I'm at 10-20 cents an hour, and there are hundreds of hours left in the games I own now.

Hehe, indeed. Only Sid have taken more of my time.
 

Darkrenown

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Well, it's nice to read that developers have a good sense of humor. But could you, or podcat, officially declare whether a decent fix (by 'decent' I don't mean changing just 2 values in defines.lua) for that will be available in SF patch? It's kinda important to me.

No.

Since 2003 I've had official responses to my posts only twice.

Kinda interesting that the second official response was this. That really sounded like a politician. I used the word dishonest because unless you know all the facts you can easily be mislead into thinkg that it is actually fixed. I'm leaking oil from my car and the mechanic says that they technically fixed it. I find that they used tape around the leak. So they technically stopped the leak but they didn't actually fix the cause.

Actually it would be more like if they sealed the leak really well, but then you drive off and your engine blows up 'cause they didn't actually put new oil in ;) The fault would be fully fixed, but the effects of that fault would not be.

In my opinion it is better to play with the no miss bug than it is to change the values.

Exactly. The game works with the bug, it's going to take a lot of testing to rebalance everything to work with the fixed values, which is why it's being done for FTM, but not in a SF patch.
 

unmerged(52484)

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I will chip in - been a looooong time since i checked the progress on HOI3......but i still feel annoyed and cheated. (wow imagine being that annoyed for a measly 50 dollars - but there you go!)
Loved HOI2. Bought HOI3 right after release. Have felt cheated since i got it. Felt even more screwed when the addon (with needed patches) cost money. No plans on buying Paradox games again.

Now playing strategic command 2 and Commander Europe at war Grand startegy 2.0

And eagerly awaiting World in Flames.

/Disappointed customer.
 

unmerged(5892)

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I'm prompted to chip in as well.

I have been a massive fan of Paradox games - from the moment I started playing EU1.

HOI1 was a solid game, HOI2 even more so. HOI3, patched as it is, is simply not even remotely comparable. Complexity does not always equal quality, especially when combined with a significant number of major problems.

I used to play multi-player EU2, HOI1 & 2. It's simply not worth it with HOI3.

I don't regret purchasing the game, I certainly got my money's worth from it's predecessors, but for me HOI3, is relegated to the dustbin.
 

TheBromgrev

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My 2 cents. Nothing more, nothing less. To put my opinion in context, I'm the co-founder of the HPP mod. I do work on the Chinese theater, starting techs, and some important events, like the Bitter Peace and Vichy's creation (the official 2.04 Vichy event is my work, and DI:G's Czechoslovakia events are also my work).

First off, after the hardware issues were fixed in 1.3, HOI3 was the game that I played the most. The previous versions would crash within 15 minutes of playtime, so I couldn't experience the supply and AI stupidness until 1.3 came out. ICE helped keep me occupied, but it didn't solve the fundamental problem with the game: the AI. To this day, ICE and DI:G still don't confront the AI aspect of the game, instead relying on Lothos's changes.

SF did a very good job when it came to the un-moddable military AI. The problem was that Lothos's AI changes were inadequate. The HOI3 AI is actually very, very, smart... if it has the right tools available. Lothos' AI, for example, tells the AI to research techs at random, with no overall strategy. It also has some bogus generic military builds, so you end up with Japan or the UK building nothing but planes and ships, while the USSR does nothing but construct buildings until 1944. The AI also isn't told when to stop training units, which results in 0-MP Germany during 1940.

Here's a perfect example of where the vanilla AI fails when compared to Slan's HPP AI: I'm playing as the RoC (nationalist China), and place garrisons in my major ports. 4 months pass after Japan attacks me, and Japan attempts to invade Qingdao. I have 2 garrison divisions in the city, plus urban terrain, so I should be fine. In vanilla, Japan's AI would leave after it lost the battle, but Slan's HPP AI is different - Japan's AI will land troops next to Qingdao while the city is being attacked, then flank it. You'll hardly ever see than in vanilla SF. Why? The HPP's AI tells the country to build more land units than it normally would, which results in a larger than normal army reserve. It also provides the AI an AI-specific port supply bonus, which encourages it to go that extra mile when attacking ports.

To put it simply: the AI will perform very well if told to build the tools it needs to succeed. However, if it doesn't have the right tools, it will disappoint. Currently everything is done based on dice rolls instead of logic.

If all of you reading this only want an AI that does what it's told, then stick with SF. If you want an AI that will change its strategy based on global events, then either play the HPP mod or tell PI that you want an AI that can actually think for itself. The military AI is actually pretty good, but the vanilla production and research AIs are not very good, and don't do the military AI justice. In other words, if you tell me "I can take that hill with 2 more bombers and 12 more mortars", and I instead tell you "do that with 10 more butter-knives instead of what you want", that sums up the vanilla AI quite well.
 
Last edited:

Darkrenown

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It also has some bogus generic military builds, so you end up with Japan or the UK building nothing but planes and ships, while the USSR does nothing but construct buildings until 1944. The AI also isn't told when to stop training units, which results in 0-MP Germany during 1940.

This is simply not true. Neither one. Promote your mod if you like, but don't make up lies about either our or Lothos' AI.
 

DanSez

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Please, lets not loose any more talent over mod turf wars.

I will say that the HPP game surprises me more than vanilla or ICE. Not exactly sure if it is conditioning to the vanilla results or that the AI is "thinking" on some level, but props to the HPP.

Asto the LUA project (and remember there was also a separate Event project) - I took that as a very positive development where Paradox allowed the community to attack a problem they (Paradox) either didn't have time/money/resources to address. Before the LUA/Events project the AI was not very good at all. As I recall, the LUA and Events were given specific orders on what they could or could not do and that might be part of what TheBromgrev sees as not sufficient programming.

In a large scope mod like ICE/HPP, you can attack problems from whatever angle you choose and use whatever hooks/handles/codes you can squeeze in to create the effect to game play desired. Now, talent is very important. I can think I want to do xxx with the game but I am in diapers still on momma's breast milk compared to most of the power programmers on the mods. My results would be much more clumbsy or have unexpected results. Both HPP and ICE have strong talent, but each have a different vision and therefore a different attack on the game problem.

The LUA and Events progjects were not given the scope to tackle some elements of the game. Certainly there are areas that could have been done better, but given the time, talent and scope of license given to them - their work has helped the vanilla game. Peace.
 

brisduv

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I ordered HOI3 and it was delivered at my house a few hours before it was available for d/l so I can say I've been playing it since day one. I was disappointed in its condition at release, and really didn't start playing it until the original AI improvement mod made it less a mockery of WW2. I've been playing non-stop until SF. Version 1.4 is enjoyable for me and I look forward to FTM to see if they get that right too. As for the mods, I've looked at ICE and never was impressed by its style over substance, lots of flashy disney-like changes for the kiddies IMO and the DLG looks just as shallow. HPP has much more going for it but some of the OOB and design choices make it unappealing to me as well. So check out the mods, they may be your cup of tea as lots of work as gone into them and their followers are passionate. Not a fan here but then I've always been very hard to please when it comes to a real wargames.
 

Uitra

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I will buy the new exp pack for hoi3, and hope it fixes the game. Stil it feels wrong, paying, again and again for getting a working game. With multicore support, I hope it can keep the game from going into turtle speed some years into the war, and add some more life to the AI.

But I do try to vote with my wallet, and latley have bought less games from paradox. If some other company hade made PON, I would have bought it.
 

Syphus

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I will buy the new exp pack for hoi3, and hope it fixes the game. Stil it feels wrong, paying, again and again for getting a working game. With multicore support, I hope it can keep the game from going into turtle speed some years into the war, and add some more life to the AI.

Does not work that way. You bought the game and it does work. Whether or not it works to your "liking" is another issue, mainly about your perception of the flaws, not some objective truth. So what you will be paying for is an expansion, AKA another product. When you buy things you are not guaranteed expansions, or even patches, you are guaranteed to have the product that you bought as is. Anything else is just entitlement.

As an aside, as far as the AI guys, no matter what you do there are people who will have an issue with the AI, until we develop sentient AI, there will always be some kind of issue or quirk with the AI. It is not like HPP suddenly fooled me into thinking I was playing human players or anything.
 

Panncakemouse

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Here's a perfect example of where the vanilla AI fails when compared to Slan's HPP AI: I'm playing as the RoC (nationalist China), and place garrisons in my major ports. 4 months pass after Japan attacks me, and Japan attempts to invade Qingdao. I have 2 garrison divisions in the city, plus urban terrain, so I should be fine. In vanilla, Japan's AI would leave after it lost the battle, but Slan's HPP AI is different - Japan's AI will land troops next to Qingdao while the city is being attacked, then flank it. You'll hardly ever see than in vanilla SF. Why? The HPP's AI tells the country to build more land units than it normally would, which results in a larger than normal army reserve. It also provides the AI an AI-specific port supply bonus, which encourages it to go that extra mile when attacking ports.

1) In the Latest SF (Beta) patch I have had the Vanilla AI repeatedly land troops around ports and surrund the garrison. That goes for AI countris as well as if I out my own troops under AI command.

2) I would argue that earlier versions of the vanilla AI was overbuilding, so after mobilizing there was not enough (or even no) manpower left, So a bit of heavy fighting later divisions shattered like mad and it was way to easy to win.

Anyway, to me HoI3 (SF) is an excellent experience, but I love to try to grasp complex systems and get to grips with why things happen the way they do. So I can enjoy wierd things just because the provide an intellectual challenge. One such item is how to use AI control over my army. It works, but only if you set things up in a way the AI can grasp.
 

Smileys last

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The AI does some wonderful things at times and some bonehead things at times. The mechanics can be surprisingly goofy at times: supply, AI production, AI homeland defense BUT let's give credit where due. Programming the various parts of a game like HOI3 is like running an economy. A tweak here or there can cause a cascade of effects throughout the game. Only by releasing the game and the add-ons and then hearing comments can a programmer hope to find all the goofiness, then they pick the issues they can measure and make another tweak.

Buyers have to understand the old Patton saying "a good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow." In some cases, that applies to game programming as well. At some point you have to release, hear about the problems you can not possibly predict, attempt a fix, rinse and repeat.

I have patience and find enjoyment well worth the money I part with. I'm pleased as well that modders are so willing to dig in. I used to do that myself and so will happily pay for their DLC and would, if they asked, pay for their mods (ICE and HPP have provided plenty of value)
 

unmerged(183154)

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My 2 cents. Nothing more, nothing less. To put my opinion in context, I'm the co-founder of the HPP mod. I do work on the Chinese theater, starting techs, and some important events, like the Bitter Peace and Vichy's creation (the official 2.04 Vichy event is my work, and DI:G's Czechoslovakia events are also my work).

First off, after the hardware issues were fixed in 1.3, HOI3 was the game that I played the most. The previous versions would crash within 15 minutes of playtime, so I couldn't experience the supply and AI stupidness until 1.3 came out. ICE helped keep me occupied, but it didn't solve the fundamental problem with the game: the AI. To this day, ICE and DI:G still don't confront the AI aspect of the game, instead relying on Lothos's changes.

Please don't take this as sarcasm because it isn't meant to be. I play nothing but multi player games and I can't personally tell if your AI is any better then any others because your mod crashes to much to be playable in a multi player setting. Granted those issues could be entirely us as I have heard good things about your mod but only in single player scenario's. However I think your comments about ICE are unwarrented. It is stable and a hell of a multi player game. ICE isn't perfect but it is by far the best multi player set up even over SF vanilla.