The "diplomat trick": why does it exist?

[Lot]

Resending diplomat won't give instant opinion boost if you already have >0 from improve relations

Good riddance! I've blanketed Europe with improved relations a few starts, which in essence is "the first 100 ae are free". But it's boring and annoying to do, and frankly what got me to install Arumba's hotkey mod (without it is not just tedious but extremely rsi inducing). Now ofcourse I'm used to the mod and can't play without it.

 

[yerm]

This is an exploit, though it was slightly obscured by the fact it was left untouched so long, and the existence of various related modifiers, and that this looks like a deliberate design.

I won't expect they touch relation improvement speed or free diplomat just because of this fix though. This exploit simply shouldn't exist and be used in the first place.

If this was an exploit previously why was the AI given a diplomat to balance against it without it having been changed or addressed until now? You don't balance a game around an exploit, unless it's only an exploit now because he says so.

So, it's an exploit, it is because Wiz says so, an exploit is what he says so and that's how this works... and this is arbitrary. You can all be right, and maybe all be wrong.

 

[happymix91]

Is there anyone call 'Paradox' as a company name before this great company whose name is Paradox was founded? Meaning of a word is differs as people by people and case by case.

There is a person who called every change of game were exploit, but who agreed with him? Paradox changed that meaningless and endless clicking for papal controller, but is there anyone, except him, who called it as an exploit? Paradox changed the way ROTW westernize, but is there anyone, except him, who called older system as an exploit?

There is a person who feel bad for fixing exploit, but is there anyone, except him, who feel bad for hard working programers who make a game which we are playing? Diplomatic relations are ticking month after month. Though we could exploit it to earn some more, it is not intended. We can know that it isn't intened like that if we can think like at least level of formal high school student.

Simply, exploit in game means the play which doesn't follow the way developers intended and get interest from it. Wiz and Johan are main developers of EU, and the way which they didn't intend is an exploit. Who can oppose it?

Paradox continuously fixes exploit, bugs, bad systems and unhistorical features to make a game greater. Paradox have done well, but some people has complaints which are totally unresonable and they want a game to be good for just them, not most part of players.

 

[Wizzington]

If this was an exploit previously why was the AI given a diplomat to balance against it without it having been changed or addressed until now? You don't balance a game around an exploit, unless it's only an exploit now because he says so.

So, it's an exploit, it is because Wiz says so, an exploit is what he says so and that's how this works... and this is arbitrary. You can all be right, and maybe all be wrong.

AI was not given a diplomat to balance against this. AI was given a diplomat because it only 'ticks' about twice a month so it can't recall and send out diplomats when it needs to do one-off actions. It isn't like we're gonna stop the player from recalling a diplomat mid improve relations and using it for something else, it just won't go any faster by sending and resending.

As for why it wasn't fixed until now... because it wasn't a high priority issue to fix. Most exploits aren't.

 

[Beagá]

Is there anyone call 'Paradox' as a company name before this great company whose name is Paradox was founded? Meaning of a word is differs as people by people and case by case.

Paradox continuously fixes exploit, bugs, bad systems and unhistorical features to make a game greater. Paradox have done well, but some people has complaints which are totally unresonable and they want a game to be good for just them, not most part of players.

To whom you are replying to?

Yes some things are subjective, but in the end you have to draw a line. And quite often that ends up annoying not the minority, but the majority (not saying it is the case of this fix).

 

[migalhone]

I can recall a situation where this "trick" came to fruition:

In my Theodoro game, i used the "diplomat trick" to get alliances with both Georgia and Circassia, which proved invaluable when the inevitable Crimean DOW came (about a year after the start, i think).

Since they attacked by themselves, i believe both me + Circassia were sufficient to deal with Crimean troops, but now i wonder how can i pick them up again and grab Crimean clay, or expand in another way...

For the record, i used this "exploit" but i'm ok with it being changed.

 

[Lot]

If this was an exploit previously why was the AI given a diplomat to balance against it without it having been changed or addressed until now? You don't balance a game around an exploit, unless it's only an exploit now because he says so.

So, it's an exploit, it is because Wiz says so, an exploit is what he says so and that's how this works... and this is arbitrary. You can all be right, and maybe all be wrong.

Ok so let's not call it an exploit but a tactic; a tedious obscure yet extremely effective tactic. I'd rather they remove, tedious obscure tactics than that they balance around them. The skill gap is already quite large. New players don't need the game to be any harder to get into, and experienced players shouldn't be forced into tedium to feel they're playing optimally.

 

[Outrider]

Exploit is defined by by me and Johan defining it as an exploit. We have the ability to do that because we make the game design and can make the call on what is and isn't WAD.

This is what is problematic. "Exploit" has some very negative connotations. If we accomplish some goal by using a certain function, and you later describe that function as an exploit, you're telling us that our accomplishment is illegitimate.

For most designers, an exploit is a bug that certain players have discovered and used beneficially. Deciding that a certain tactic is too strong, and reducing it's utility is more commonly described as a balance change.

People don't have problems with balance changes (presuming they accomplish that goal), but willy-nilly designations of "exploits" always cause the same backlash.

I typically like to avoid taking advantage of game-flaws in my runs. If I plan to stack enough BROT to hit X.1 annual decay to get X+1 from the roundup function, do I need to consider that a possible exploit and not use it? If I realize that by quickly hiring mercs whose upkeep I can't afford to get enough "relative military strength" bonus for a diplovassal and then disband, do I need to consider that a possible exploit and not use it?

 

[Itchel]

Damn, I was hoping nobody would post this exploit but meh, Never really had a use for it except for getting a vassal quicker.

 

[jayare]

So the devs change something that was clearly not working as intended, and despite the fact that nearly everyone agrees the change itself is beneficial, the community nevertheless responds with pages of semantic arguments and quibbling over the metaphysics of exploits.

Solid work, people.

 

[Subbak]

Wow... I make a post, board a plane and when I come back it appears I started a war...

I would agree that it's a little surprising to see this called an "exploit" as given how diplomats work it does not seem to be such an outlandish thing to do (compared to, say, the exploit with choosing/cancelling ideas and buidings to generate free MP). I took it to be more of a case of something the devs didn't think of at first, but then people started using it and they didn't want to remove it because it's easy to become attached to something that gives you an edge even when that thing makes your experience objectively worse.

Also, to people who say "just don't use it", well it turns out some people (including me) derive less enjoyment from a game if they see how they could do things better but force themselves not to. In MP this could easily be solved by adding an house rule, but in SP you are only playing against the game, so not using the trick is frustrating, and using it is tedious. Removing the feature from the game is the SP equivalent of house rule.
I will also note that all the people who claim they need this trick, or that it made sense because improve relations was faster with closer countries, could instead ask for a faster improve relations rate with closer countries that does not require constant clicking. Unless you *like* clicking constantly on things without making meaningful decisions, but I don't think that's the game Johan and Wiz want to make.

 

[grommile]

Damn, I was hoping nobody would post this exploit

It's been posted repeatedly long before this - as you can probably tell from the fact that Wiz has said it's been removed in 1.12, which means it wasn't removed in response to this thread.

 

[Lot]

So the devs change something that was clearly not working as intended, and despite the fact that nearly everyone agrees the change itself is beneficial, the community nevertheless responds with pages of semantic arguments and quibbling over the metaphysics of exploits.

Solid work, people.

People don't like to admit that sometimes they cheat. Exploits are, as said before, considered as cheats. This one is both alluring (100 free ae hell yes) and tortuously tedious to do (hours of your life gone, I'm not even exaggerating) so yes people fuss about defending it.

 

[Outrider]

So the devs change something that was clearly not working as intended, and despite the fact that nearly everyone agrees the change itself is beneficial, the community nevertheless responds with pages of semantic arguments and quibbling over the metaphysics of exploits.

Solid work, people.

Clearly not working as intended? You have far better insight into the dev's intent than many of us. This Tactic/Trick/Exploit has been featured in several "look what I accomplished" threads that the devs posted in regarding the other tactics/tricks/exploits in those ones (Notably an Aachen run abusing Burgundian Inheritance).

Nearly Everyone agrees the change itself is beneficial? The actual response appears split between "doing this was too powerful" and "doing this was tedious", with a fair number agreeing that it would be a positive change if the improve relation rate was modified to be impacted by distance (i.e., same outcome, less tedium).

The community isn't necessarily responding to the change, but to the argument Wiz seems to be making:
1. Using an "exploit" is barely different than cheating.
2. Any feature may be redefined as "exploit" at any time if Wiz/Johan decide it to be so.
3. All of us may be currently be basically cheating right now by using any feature in the game, since it could be re-defined in the future as an "exploit".

Thankfully though, we've been saved by the eventual thread entrant who can summarize a nuanced and ongoing development issue with a single snarky sentence.

Solid work, bro.

 

[Krajzen]

People don't like to admit that sometimes they cheat. Exploits are, as said before, considered as cheats. This one is both alluring (100 free ae hell yes) and tortuously tedious to do (hours of your life gone, I'm not even exaggerating) so yes people fuss about defending it.

As much as I don't want to engage in this discussion I am keeping wondering what kind of mind decides to spend hours on so super tedious annoying crap just to slightly optimize... Non-competetive mostly-singleplayer video game... Supposed to be fun...

On the other hand, I had a period of an obsession bordering on mental disorder when I wanted to play Civilization 5 but 'couldn't and postponed it for weeks because I was busy with organising a perfect combination of mods upgrading the game to vastly superior level. And I have been compulsively downloading them, testing for hours, changing, modifying, almost reviewing in my perfectionist insanity, digging through them tediously for hours and then I realized the nonsense and void of that. Damn, if I am already wasting time on a pleasure it is supposed to be a pleasure, not work. I also realized I lost enjoyment from playing the game among digging in all those editors, cheats, mechanics and superb addition options,

This is off-topic, I feel the same pointlessness of diplomatic tick exploit - hours of frustration to achieve almost nonexistantly better (?) quality (?) of enjoyment (?)

 

[Lot]

Nearly Everyone agrees the change itself is beneficial? The actual response appears split between "doing this was too powerful" and "doing this was tedious", with a fair number agreeing that it would be a positive change if the improve relation rate was modified to be impacted by distance (i.e., same outcome, less tedium).

Good idea, but the same outcome would be too strong, +100 relations with all HRE in under 10 years is ridiculous.

As much as I don't want to engage in this discussion I am keeping wondering what kind of mind decides to spend hours on so super tedious annoying crap just to slightly optimize... Non-competetive mostly-singleplayer video game... Supposed to be fun...

I didn't discover the tactic on the forums I discovered it in-game. I stuck with it in that game and had a what-if moment after that, 100 relations with all of Europe really is a huge deal. But the novelty wears off quickly, well it did for me anyways.

 

[jayare]

Clearly not working as intended? You have far better insight into the dev's intent than many of us. This Tactic/Trick/Exploit has been featured in several "look what I accomplished" threads that the devs posted in regarding the other tactics/tricks/exploits in those ones (Notably an Aachen run abusing Burgundian Inheritance).

Nearly Everyone agrees the change itself is beneficial? The actual response appears split between "doing this was too powerful" and "doing this was tedious", with a fair number agreeing that it would be a positive change if the improve relation rate was modified to be impacted by distance (i.e., same outcome, less tedium).

The community isn't necessarily responding to the change, but to the argument Wiz seems to be making:
1. Using an "exploit" is barely different than cheating.
2. Any feature may be redefined as "exploit" at any time if Wiz/Johan decide it to be so.
3. All of us may be currently be basically cheating right now by using any feature in the game, since it could be re-defined in the future as an "exploit".

Thankfully though, we've been saved by the eventual thread entrant who can summarize a nuanced and ongoing development issue with a single snarky sentence.

Solid work, bro.

I'm not here to save you from anything or anyone. Quibble away to your heart's content, friend.

 

[Outrider]

Good idea, but the same outcome would be too strong, +100 relations with all HRE in under 10 years is ridiculous.

Mathematically not possible with 2 diplomats in 10 or less years, but I understand your point.

I believe the posts I was referencing weren't promoting a "+100 with everyone in X years" outcome, but an ouctome of being able to improve relations with somebody nearby at a faster rate than +2/mo.

 

[Mamluke]

As much as I don't want to engage in this discussion I am keeping wondering what kind of mind decides to spend hours on so super tedious annoying crap just to slightly optimize... Non-competetive mostly-singleplayer video game... Supposed to be fun...

On the other hand, I had a period of an obsession bordering on mental disorder when I wanted to play Civilization 5 but 'couldn't and postponed it for weeks because I was busy with organising a perfect combination of mods upgrading the game to vastly superior level. And I have been compulsively downloading them, testing for hours, changing, modifying, almost reviewing in my perfectionist insanity, digging through them tediously for hours and then I realized the nonsense and void of that. Damn, if I am already wasting time on a pleasure it is supposed to be a pleasure, not work. I also realized I lost enjoyment from playing the game among digging in all those editors, cheats, mechanics and superb addition options,

This is off-topic, I feel the same pointlessness of diplomatic tick exploit - hours of frustration to achieve almost nonexistantly better (?) quality (?) of enjoyment (?)

holy crap! I did this too for napolean total war. so much hours finding and instaling mods to make the game "much better" and in the end.... I bareally played the dame game! an entire day preaty much wasted.
good to know Im not the only "nutjob" XD

 

[josh127]

The community isn't necessarily responding to the change, but to the argument Wiz seems to be making:
1. Using an "exploit" is barely different than cheating.
2. Any feature may be redefined as "exploit" at any time if Wiz/Johan decide it to be so.
3. All of us may be currently be basically cheating right now by using any feature in the game, since it could be re-defined in the future as an "exploit".

Unfortunately, few see that and instead think the discussion is about the change to sending diplomats.

Although my personal favorite is how improving relations to the point someone will give you military access and stopping in their territory is "barely different than cheating", while joining two wars and using your access that your enemy in war A got through a country who hates you to ambush your enemy in war B is perfectly legit... at least until we're told we're barely different than cheating. I mean, obviously these aren't poor implementations of mechanics that should be fixed but rather the player cheating.