The "diplomat trick": why does it exist?

[Wizzington]

So it's a diplomacy debuff, unless it's compensated. Is it compensated with faster rate or something?

Removing an exploit is not a debuff. Would you consider the removal of the 'cash' console command a nerf to income?

 

[LordQ]

Is something similar being done with colonists? I personally find the colonist send-resend trick even more obnoxious than the diplomat one.

 

[blackchoas]

Is something similar being done with colonists? I personally find the colonist send-resend trick even more obnoxious than the diplomat one.

Whats the colonist resend trick exactly? surely it can't be effective on anything other than a native american nations, colonist travel times are too long

 

[RobRoy3]

Is something similar being done with colonists? I personally find the colonist send-resend trick even more obnoxious than the diplomat one.

Uh. Oh. Have I been missing an exploit? What's this trick and how can it possibly work when it typically takes far longer than 30 days to send a colonist to most areas?

 

[Cymsdale]

I'm glad Paradox developers have the sense to recognize an exploit for what it is and fix it. I'm baffled that anyone would consider this a 'feature' that should be kept.

 

[yerm]

Some strategies relied on spamming diplomats for success, and, just like when strait blocking was nerfed and other changes, some people will adapt their strategies to a better environment now while others will whine.

 

[Umega]

I've noticed this for a while, but couldn't care less about taking advantage of it...

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

I got sick of that argument quite some time ago, watching people try to defend outright landmines in the design of tabletop RPGs. If there is a clearly optimal mode of play in a strategy game, and that mode of play involves hellish micromanagement, then the designers are making the statement, whether by accident or design, that you are supposed to engage in hellish micromanagement if you want to do well.

Or it's an unitended consequence of rule interactions. They might very well not have intended for you to be able to perform the "clearly optimal" form of play.

 

[Notos]

If there is a clearly optimal mode of play in a strategy game, [...]

The "optimal" way to play a strategy game - any game - is the way that is the most fun. It's a game after all, being fun is the only reason it exists. Using an exploit that you hate despite the game is in no way forcing you to use it is just ... not optimal.

 

[PhoenixDown]

I am not sure if it needed to be fixed. It was a neat little trick that comes to play almost only on small nations that need allies.

Whats the colonist resend trick exactly? surely it can't be effective on anything other than a native american nations, colonist travel times are too long

If your capital is close you can send a colonist, recall him, send him again, recall etc for super colony growth. Now that needs to be fixed.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Removing an exploit is not a debuff. Would you consider the removal of the 'cash' console command a nerf to income?

That seems to be some egg to step on. Doing unintended actions that are within the constraints of the game rules is very different from cheating. The above quote has implications that, for example, run at cross purposes with tying achievements to ironman.

It reflects poorly to imply that it's cheating similar to the console. For over a year since game has been out, we have the following knowledge:

1. Diplomats improve relations on arrival.
2. Travel time is a constraint on using #1, with modifiers that impact it.

From 1.0 until 1.11, this means that if you're Tuscany you can improve relations faster with Milan than you can with Ming, because send/recall is impractical with Ming. It would be disingenuous to claim that such didn't make at least some sense (ability to improve faster with nearby nations than far ones).

Changing game rules because they lead to tedious/repetitive actions with little thought investment is a reasonable thing to do. Claiming an obvious action based on previous game rules to be an "exploit", and extending that implication to be analogous to free money from cheating is a murky (at best) representation of the previous game state and is flat-out inaccurate.

Improve relation speed boost from this was finite + limited by multiple things in the ruleset including both travel time and the one send/month limitation, infinite cash is not.

 

[LordQ]

Whats the colonist resend trick exactly? surely it can't be effective on anything other than a native american nations, colonist travel times are too long

Uh. Oh. Have I been missing an exploit? What's this trick and how can it possibly work when it typically takes far longer than 30 days to send a colonist to most areas?

It's basically sending and resending your colonist if your colonist is very close to the province being colonised. Generally less than 30 days, yeah, though colonies more than 30 days away . It's probably not that big of a deal since the colonising majors (France, England, Spain, etc) can't use it. But assuming we follow the achievements for nations that Paradox wants people to play, there are 4 achievements for new world natives that would use this as an optimal strategy (though the 95 doom one may not use it). So it should probably be looked at.

 

[gajop]

I don't think this completely fixes it.
You can still send one diplomat to multiple nations in a single month for more total +opinion (relevant if doing large conquest).
Not entirely sure from what Wiz said if it's doable only on the first month or not though.

Would it be too hard to just have it apply after one whole month passes as they're improving the relations?

 

[Grif_E]

Colonist trick was nerfed with spawning natives every time colonist arrives. I think it was sufficient. Unless that's just my crazy client doing it, heh.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't think this completely fixes it.
You can still send one diplomat to multiple nations in a single month for more total +opinion (relevant if doing large conquest).
Not entirely sure from what Wiz said if it's doable only on the first month or not though.

Would it be too hard to just have it apply after one whole month passes as they're improving the relations?

Wiz said that the AI gets an extra diplomat to compensate that it doesn't send + recall diplomats. Of course, now that balance has been altered because humans were apparently cheating (as the game tells you you're doing when using the console) by playing within the defined rules .

 

[PhoenixDown]

Colonist trick was nerfed with spawning natives every time colonist arrives. I think it was sufficient. Unless that's just my crazy client doing it, heh.

You kill the natives first.

 

[lymond]

I for one hate to see it go. I never considered it an exploit. Some folks like to micro their diplo and some don't . At least you had a choice if you need to.

As for the colonist trick, it really has very limited usage anyway.

I'd rather less focus on these insignificant things and more focus on things like the UI and maybe making keyboard shortcuts a permanent part of the game....or....you know....naval warfare.

 

[blackchoas]

It's basically sending and resending your colonist if your colonist is very close to the province being colonised. Generally less than 30 days, yeah, though colonies more than 30 days away . It's probably not that big of a deal since the colonising majors (France, England, Spain, etc) can't use it. But assuming we follow the achievements for nations that Paradox wants people to play, there are 4 achievements for new world natives that would use this as an optimal strategy (though the 95 doom one may not use it). So it should probably be looked at.

where do you count 4? I count 1, the Sun God or Sunset Invasion achievements won't be won or lost based on a small bonus on colonizing, the new Iroquois one is also uneffected by it, only No Trail of Tears is likely the only one that could use this big time, although it could probably get other strats, like the Luck the Irish strat that involves fleeing to the new world, Perhaps African Power could benefit from it and a Re-reconquista strat that involves fleeing to America

 

[Wizzington]

Wiz said that the AI gets an extra diplomat to compensate that it doesn't send + recall diplomats. Of course, now that balance has been altered because humans were apparently cheating (as the game tells you you're doing when using the console) by playing within the defined rules .

Exploiting and cheating are not literally the same, but they're hardly far apart either. 'Playing within the defined rules of the game' is a completely meaningless phrase if you're just going to define it as 'the game lets you do this'.

 

[grommile]

The "optimal" way to play a strategy game - any game - is the way that is the most fun. It's a game after all, being fun is the only reason it exists. Using an exploit that you hate despite the game is in no way forcing you to use it is just ... not optimal.

Your definition of "optimal play" is completely useless when criticizing the design and implementation of game mechanics; it is simply the "don't like it don't use it" argument rephrased.