The difference between the British and the French

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HuzzButt

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The Spectator knows how to please its readers
 

Eusebio

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Total nonsense not least because Barnier is the one advocating the EU give a concession and start trade talks ASAP while the EU27 lead by that known Frenchwoman Angela merkel are more intransigent
 

SirNat

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Wow a great article showing the Brits been flexible sticking it to Europe while the French are angry, unimaginative, inflexible, humourless.........
We've given it a good go and even had it rammed down our throats, but we've simply had enough and are not happy with its direction. Its the frogs who are dogmatically believing in their pan-European ideals, like they've been foolhardily been believing in for centuries.
I thoroughly enjoyed the analogy of English Baconian ants vs French Cartesian spiders. It truly does encapsulates the difference between the British and French mentality.
 

Mder1

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How delightfully clichéd.
 

icedt729

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Ah, of course. The only possible reason why the EU would be taking a hard line in Brexit negotiations is because of Gallic vindictiveness and inflexibility. And the UK is not looking for favorable terms in pursuit of its own interests; it's just because the British are so much more practical and reasonable than those stubborn Continentals, you see.
 

SirNat

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How delightfully clichéd.
All these dismissive snooty remarks, without actually trying to engage with any of Robert's arguments. I don't think many would deny that there are important cultural differences between us and the French. These cultural differences provide an important backdrop to the negotiations.
 

Caspoi

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You are the one who boasted about how humble British people are, perhaps a degree of introspectionism is in order.
 

keynes2.0

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It's pretty amusing how the exact opposite of these stereotypes would make more sense in this situation. The british are sticking to the legal letter of their rights. They are under no obligation to work with the EU. The Germans (and French, etc.) are operating under the belief that the EU is a long term commitment to improve.

Of course I would hardly suggest reversing the stereotypes because it wasn't too long ago when the Germans (and French, etc) were being hardliners sticking to the letter of their obligations and screwing over the Irish who had naively assumed that if Ireland helped all of Europe, all of Europe would return the favor. It turns out there isn't a hard and fast rule of who acts which way! (Although there is a hard and fast rule that people screw the Irish).
 

thedarkendstar

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Laughs across the ocean in the US as the Europeans argue about Britain (meanwhile we argue with ourselves if Trump is literally Hitler or the god emperor)
 

DoomBunny

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So, am I genuinely the only one who doesn't look at the Brexit negotiations and go "Well, clearly, the side I support is literally Jesus Christ returned whilst the other is a Saturday morning cartoon villain"?

(Although there is a hard and fast rule that people screw the Irish).

Tbf, redheads are irresistible.
 

keynes2.0

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"Well, clearly, the side I support is literally Jesus Christ returned whilst the other is a Saturday morning cartoon villain"?

Psssh, they aren't Saturday morning cartoon villains, they are just hopelessly clueless, self aggrandizing and a little bit dickish... oh wait I guess they are.
 

Narwhal

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To be honest, the way of thinking and explaining stuff is different.

Let's say you have a business discussion, with a problem and 2 possible solutions A and B. An English team leader, a French team leader and a German team leader gather and tell their boss what they think should be done.

- The English will
Start by telling you who has been working on the project
Tell the boss "we should do A" and will list 6 or 7 arguments of different strengths, in no particular order, with 0 - 3 examples by argument
Solution B will not be mentioned
The team leader will conclude by restating that we should do A and mentionning the few drawbacks of doing A.


- The French will
Start with a fairly long intro of the history of the problem and why it was not detected earlier (="not my fault")
Then he will say "Those are the arguments for doing B [=the worst solution]", with a list with 2- 3 items supporting solution B and one example each, never more items or examples. The items are ranked in decreasing importance.
Then he will say "but we should not do B" with a list with 2- 3 items against solution B and one example each.
Then he will say "So, we should do A", with a list of 2 - 3 strong arguments, with one example each (even if it means "grouping" in logical groups the same 8 - 9 items from the British). The items are ranking in increasing importance.
The French will conclude with "well we need to be doing A", the minor drawbacks of doing A, and a final, totally out of box advantage of doing A ("not only will it solve our problem, but it will allow the marketing department to communicate on this new solution")

- The German will
Start with a fairly short intro on the exact scope/impact of the problem and apologize
Then he will say "Here are the arguments for doing A" and list them all in agonizing details
Then he will say "Here are the arguments against doing A" and list them all in agonizing details
Then he will say "Here are the arguments for doing B" and list them all in agonizing details
Then he will say "Here are the arguments against doing B" and list them all in agonizing details
Then he will conclude : "overall, we are X percent sure I believe we should do [whatever]",
What is important to note that the solution prefered has no relationship with the order in which there were explained and that there is some sort of "weighting" between the 2 options, which neither the French nor the English would do.
Dissenting opinion within the team, if any, would be mentioned during conclusion by the team leader. This is anathemous to the English (the team is the team) and to the French (the team leader makes the final call !)

In the case of the English or the Germans, the boss will most usually follow the recommendation. The French boss is 50% likely to use the opportunity to challenge heavily whatever the team leader said, and 25% to take an opposite decision just to show the team leader who is the boss.
All team leaders will then abide by the boss decision, unlike say Eastern Europeans or French Canadians.

Source : Professional experience.
 
Last edited:

Klausewitz

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All these dismissive snooty remarks, without actually trying to engage with any of Robert's arguments.
There is nothing to be engaged.
Either you share trite national cliches or you don't.
If I told you that the British are moneygrubing sociopath because they all descend from raping and pillaging invaders i would have made a great case for everybody hating the British but at the same time I would have given your absolutly NOTHING to engage with beyond 'You are overstating your point'.
That is all your reply could be because while the facts I use (Roman Invasion, Anglo-Saxon Invasion, Norman Invasion, Invasion during the Anarchy, invasion by William of Orange) are there the conclusions are very much take it or leave it.
 

SirNat

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There is nothing to be engaged.
Either you share trite national cliches or you don't.
If I told you that the British are moneygrubing sociopath because they all descend from raping and pillaging invaders i would have made a great case for everybody hating the British but at the same time I would have given your absolutly NOTHING to engage with beyond 'You are overstating your point'.
That is all your reply could be because while the facts I use (Roman Invasion, Anglo-Saxon Invasion, Norman Invasion, Invasion during the Anarchy, invasion by William of Orange) are there the conclusions are very much take it or leave it.
They are cliches for a reason and that does not make them wrong in any way. Strawberries and cream are a cliche, but that does not mean that they do not go well together. In fact it means they have gone very well together to the extent that we simply know through force of habit that they go together (to the point where we even forget even why they even went well together in the first place). Now if I make an argument that defends the point that strawberries and cream go well together- simply because you have heard it before does not make it any way less strong of an argument.

Often in intellectual circles I see individuals dismiss traditional arguments purely on the premise that they have heard them before/ they are old arguments (e.g. in this thread). This is flawed logic, it is the exact opposite which is true. The fact that these stereotypes/presumptions/biases etc continue to persist through time is a very strong argument within itself for their continuation.

Similarly, with the case of national stereotypes cultural presumptions and biases rightly exist because these cultures are different! I do not think anyone would deny this. Robert Tombs was not saying or even implying that British culture was superior or French culture was inferior but rather that we have different modus operandi. French tend to act and approach tasks in different ways to the British. Robert then reinforces this position by referring to divergences between our two nations in our approach to politics, diplomacy and philosophy. These cultural trappings provide an important backdrop to the negotiations taking place between us and the EU.

Clearly the Euro's in this thread feel resentment to us Brit's that we pulled out of this ghastly organisation before they did.
 

Mder1

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Clearly the Euro's in this thread feel resentment to us Brit's that we pulled out of this ghastly organisation before they did.
Considering I do not want to get out, that's clearly not true.
 

Sanny

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Laughs across the ocean in the US as the Europeans argue about Britain (meanwhile we argue with ourselves if Trump is literally Hitler or the god emperor)
And this is what bothers me about Americans they always make everything about Trump when he has nothing at all to do with Brexit.