The Developer Multiplayer Clash - Every Tuesday at 15:00CET

[Frogbait]

People seriously need to calm down. We're literally 1 game into the session and people are screaming about how Wiz has already won. His name looks big because it's a bunch of poor big provinces. He doesn't have a super strong economical base and being a horde will likely result in it staying that way until he ditches the horde ways. He has 25k Cavalry which is terrifying, but it's not like Oirat is dead in the water. He mismanaged his resources and put himself in a bad position as a result that Wiz took advantage of. He probably still has his god king general at this point in the game which will give him a nice edge over wiz if he's able to muster a decent force.

My Japan speculation has been and remains that the three are working together so that they can get a lot more out of the island than 1 or 2 people would be able to. They have a much larger fighting strength as a result and teaming up with Grekulf to defeat Wiz isn't going to be unheard of. Iirc one has colonized an island to have direct land access to Wiz via a strait when they control the seas. But nothing about the tributary status has really been revealed so I have no idea if that means Ming will become a defender or not for non-tributaries.

India is really going to depend on how content Katz is with the arrangement. A single one of the 3 switching sides or not participating will result in a balance swing towards Jake + Bengal. Mong Yang would need to pick the winning side or remain neutral. If she picks the winning side, then she'll have a secured western front that can help her expand eastward whereas picking the losing side would mean she would be a prime target. As things currently stand, Bahmanis, Vijay, and Gujarat are all hurting a bit from constant warfare + cleaning up rebels for Gujarat. I'm hoping Katz proves to be a deciding factor due to 2 main reasons:
1) It's disgusting to see the two largest indian blobs working together
2) Between the three of them, Vijay is the one who really seems to lose out unless he's been promised Bengal. Even then, Bahmanis and being able to split westward expansion is a bit more lucrative.

SE Asia... It was pretty terrible to see Gnivom gangbanged. Also R Lazer's rebel dealing was quite stupid. He send 7k against 8k on an attack with 1k following behind on top of not directly transporting his troops so he took a tick of attrition while crossing back home. He would have been better off accepting Sunni demands and just 100%ing Bjornb for sunni land that would be harder to rebel. But Rufo's support also can't be ignored. I'm a bit confused on how Malacca lost so much land after they gained a decent bit after their peacedeal with Bjornb.

 

[Sfan]

The map updates lead to the fact that Wiz' land is far from poor. His development is comparable to the Indian big boys even if obviously trade goods and trade is less attractive, it seems the development of Manchuria has been buffed, probably to lead to a more frequent Qing.

The reason why people say he has won, even if obviously an exageration, is because how easy his expansion will be from now. No decent alliance can form against him, and it is likely that he kills Oirat next session and then steamrolls the Steppes in the next ones without any player war, while everyone else will be slowed down by the player density. He is a horde, but if he fights AIs instead of players, his economy will be similar to others because he won't have to build forts, to spam mercs and to take loans to win hard wars. He can safely loot, raze and ask for money against poor AIs, and snowball into 1kdev in 2-3 sessions if he plays his cards well, when at the same time everyone else will be stuck without easy routes of expansion. Even StarNan is facing relatively strong AI threats in the form of Persia and the Timurids, and he can't overcommit to these wars because the situation in India will always be unclear even if his alliance wins. Brunei or Majapahit don't have a lot of threats around them, but their expansion options are more limited because colonizing is way slower than conquering to gain development even if in the long term it might make them strong contenders. The player distribution was unbalanced from the start and it was obvious that Wiz was in an extremely strong position. With a strong alliance with Korea and the fact he already beated down the Oirat his situation has even improved.
On top of everything, it seems Korea is about to develop a Renaissance for him. Obviously Wiz has not won yet, but he is in an extremely strong position and will likely remain so until the major lategame wars. If you add his skill as a player to this dreamed situation, he is by far the favorite.

I agree with the rest of your analysis, even if I would like to see Bahmanis be the one jumping out of the alliance of the south and not Vijayanagar. Judging by Katz' playstyle last MP, he seemed perfectly fine with being the weakest member of the winning side - Bjorn expected -, and he is taking the same road this time, so I see no reason why he would take a risk this time.

 

[Republic of Mercury]

There was an agreement regarding the Andalusian provinces in Spain that could have been very beneficial. Unfortunately I was a bit naive.

Here's hoping you get a chance for revenge!

Also, who is that in Bessarabia?

I didn't see this answered so: It's probably "Bessarabia". That is, Moldavia likes to give that province to the cossacks estate, and because that's such percentage of their development, that makes them very vulnerable to the "Cossacks independence" disaster, which spawns a dynamic nation that takes all their cossack provinces from them. Slightly sad that the hasn't been taught to handle that a bit better, but meh.

 

[Viperswhip]

At least nobody is going to embarrass Castile this time around.

 

[Frogbait]

The map updates lead to the fact that Wiz' land is far from poor. His development is comparable to the Indian big boys even if obviously trade goods and trade is less attractive, it seems the development of Manchuria has been buffed, probably to lead to a more frequent Qing.

The reason why people say he has won, even if obviously an exageration, is because how easy his expansion will be from now. No decent alliance can form against him, and it is likely that he kills Oirat next session and then steamrolls the Steppes in the next ones without any player war, while everyone else will be slowed down by the player density. He is a horde, but if he fights AIs instead of players, his economy will be similar to others because he won't have to build forts, to spam mercs and to take loans to win hard wars. He can safely loot, raze and ask for money against poor AIs, and snowball into 1kdev in 2-3 sessions if he plays his cards well, when at the same time everyone else will be stuck without easy routes of expansion. Even StarNan is facing relatively strong AI threats in the form of Persia and the Timurids, and he can't overcommit to these wars because the situation in India will always be unclear even if his alliance wins. Brunei or Majapahit don't have a lot of threats around them, but their expansion options are more limited because colonizing is way slower than conquering to gain development even if in the long term it might make them strong contenders. The player distribution was unbalanced from the start and it was obvious that Wiz was in an extremely strong position. With a strong alliance with Korea and the fact he already beated down the Oirat his situation has even improved.
On top of everything, it seems Korea is about to develop a Renaissance for him. Obviously Wiz has not won yet, but he is in an extremely strong position and will likely remain so until the major lategame wars. If you add his skill as a player to this dreamed situation, he is by far the favorite.

I agree with the rest of your analysis, even if I would like to see Bahmanis be the one jumping out of the alliance of the south and not Vijayanagar. Judging by Katz' playstyle last MP, he seemed perfectly fine with being the weakest member of the winning side - Bjorn expected -, and he is taking the same road this time, so I see no reason why he would take a risk this time.

Well, my thought process was that either Bahmanis or Vijay would be the ones that have the key incentive to turn on the alliance but considering Bahmanis is the one who came up with this alliance I'm doubtful he'd then turn on it. StarNaN was who I initially assumed made the alliance by basically taking advantage of newer MP players and he's the one who has really gained the most out of it. Either way, StarNaN has the most to gain by staying in the current alliance situation but him turning on it isn't out of the question assuming the terms of him getting the west are agreed upon. Either way StarNaN after session 1 is set up to be the dominant indian player so long as he ends up on the winning side of whichever alliance bloc wins India. The other 4 players in the sub continent all have a need to kill off another power for expansion purposes. StarNaN just needs a good defensive alliance so he can expand west and eventually be the supreme indian power. West, not east, is the key to success for whoever controls the west controls the means to ultimate growth.

As for Wiz:
Trade is a huge factor in your position though... and it's not like the land he's expanding into has amazing trade goods to allow himself to be a production powerhouse for income. People are really overblowing how "amazing" his position is after the first session. I mean, he hasn't quite reached groogy Ottoman levels at various points last game that Groogy ultimately managed to squander.

@Johan You should talk about the changed VC rules you mentioned. I do have to agree in part with some of the criticism in this thread about your commentating for some of the changes. Overall though, you were on my short list of people who I thought could replace Jake fairly well. The minor bumps I'm sure will be ironed out more as you continue the role

 

[Groogy]

Yamana Sōzen-Sama,
Venerable Red Monk,
​

We, the people of Nihon come to You, one of the greatest Shogu, with a plea. We heard of leader rising and uniting Manchu tribes. The tales tell, that he is one of Tengu, ancestor of Sutoku-tennō. What is more there is great red Oni, who holds golden goblets stolen from mortals as a trinket of victory. We fear that times of Mongol incursions will happen again. We won then, but now threat is greater than ever. We also fear for repeat of Ōnin War. We cannot let to be divided. We should unite and stand together to, like true bushi, find glory in battle for the Shogunate. It is a matter of our survival and honor.

As first step bushi of Nihon should take back rightfully ours island of Sakhalin. The Manchu tribes are occupying lands, which from ages belonged to Ainu, who by the law serve Shogunate. After securing foothold in Manchu, we should push back and defeat ancestor of Sutoku-tennō and bring back honor to Emperors name.

Please, Yamana Sōzen-Sama, bring us the peace of heart, that Your people crave for.
Your faithful servants.

That is so awesome. Also Sakhalin will be retaken for the glory of the Japanese people! Don¨t worry

 

[Wagonlitz]

The map updates lead to the fact that Wiz' land is far from poor. His development is comparable to the Indian big boys even if obviously trade goods and trade is less attractive, it seems the development of Manchuria has been buffed, probably to lead to a more frequent Qing.

It was shown in the stream that he's dirt poor; Johan even noted how Wiz was large, but dirt poor.

 

[Grand Historian]

With a lot of back and forth with battles both won and lost. But alas, I was not meant to survive the Indian Thunderdome.

I haven't had so much fun fighting a war in quite a while.

Well, at least we can get... Beyond Thunderdome now.

(I'll show myself out.)

 

[Dakka]

Well, at least we can get... Beyond Thunderdome now.

(I'll show myself out.)

Boooooooooo.

Mad Max needs to be used as one of the Dev Clash posters now

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

That is so awesome. Also Sakhalin will be retaken for the glory of the Japanese people! Don¨t worry

Did Japanese people even known Sakhalin existed at this point?

 

[Wagonlitz]

Did Japanese people even known Sakhalin existed at this point?

Considering the strait between Hokkaido and Sakhalin isn't that wide I'd be really surprised if they didn't.

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

Considering the strait between Hokkaido and Sakhalin isn't that wide I'd be really surprised if they didn't.

Ya but wasn't Hokkaido mostly populated by Ainu until the 17th century?

 

[Dnote]

Did Japanese people even known Sakhalin existed at this point?

They knew of it, but officially explore it until the early 17th Century or settle until the late part of it. We though are perhaps a little more expansionist and a little less isolationist than the historical Japanese of that time period.

As for Wiz, he may be poor, but you have to consider the long term picture here. Based on his previous performance in the dev mp, it is safe to assume he is in a good position, and it isn't about being the most powerful player, it is about having the highest score, which as has been proven, you don't need to be Prussia to do that

 

[Sfan]

Well, it is true that score relies on economy for a fair bit, but he will surely find a way. In the longterm, we can expect him to control the northern road that goes from Korea to Novgorod, and is quite a lucrative one once you put manufactories in iron and fur provinces around Siberia and Russia. He can easily make 100+ ducats from trade, good luck for beating that if noone is able to unite India or the West Indies.

 

[SPAMbuca]

They knew of it, but officially explore it until the early 17th Century or settle until the late part of it. We though are perhaps a little more expansionist and a little less isolationist than the historical Japanese of that time period.

As for Wiz, he may be poor, but you have to consider the long term picture here. Based on his previous performance in the dev mp, it is safe to assume he is in a good position, and it isn't about being the most powerful player, it is about having the highest score, which as has been proven, you don't need to be Prussia to do that

Well unless all 3 of you can make profitable deals with Wiz, which is something I doubt, you'll be bound to attack him sooner or later. Question is, whether theletterZ will be willing to drop Wiz as an ally, or whether Wiz is willing to drop theLetterZ as an ally/vassal. I doubt it as Wiz has no reason to do so now and knows Zeke won't backstab him as he isn't the player to do that. If so, he would have done so already anyway.

Especially Groogy needs to expand into Asia if he wants to go somewhere and as said earlier, roleplaying he is sort of bound to attack Korea and Manchuria next. Question is, will it be better to wait or to attack as soon as possible? I don't see any advantage to the Japanese players to wait longer as it will be to the benefit of Wiz and Zeke. Perhaps it would be nice to wait for Zeke to spawn the Renaissance, but that's it. It's better to team up with Oirat now, despite the tech advantage Zeke has at the moment.

I assume you're planning to attack Wiz next session?

 

[Dnote]

Well unless all 3 of you can make profitable deals with Wiz, which is something I doubt, you'll be bound to attack him sooner or later. Question is, whether theletterZ will be willing to drop Wiz as an ally, or whether Wiz is willing to drop theLetterZ as an ally/vassal. I doubt it as Wiz has no reason to do so now and knows Zeke won't backstab him as he isn't the player to do that. If so, he would have done so already anyway.

Especially Groogy needs to expand into Asia if he wants to go somewhere and as said earlier, roleplaying he is sort of bound to attack Korea and Manchuria next. Question is, will it be better to wait or to attack as soon as possible? I don't see any advantage to the Japanese players to wait longer as it will be to the benefit of Wiz and Zeke. Perhaps it would be nice to wait for Zeke to spawn the Renaissance, but that's it. It's better to team up with Oirat now, despite the tech advantage Zeke has at the moment.

I assume you're planning to attack Wiz next session?

All I would say for now is, we're aware of the differences between 1.20 and 1.19, which factors into some of our decision making

 

[Xylophone]

Stjarnan is goes for max greed expansion to block Jake. I wonder, if Jake can circumvent this and finish Delhi, by bypassing Gujarat from the north. I feel like there is going to be some anti-Starnan coalition or he's going to dominate India, when he expands to west into Persian AI.

 

[Zerodv]

Considering the strait between Hokkaido and Sakhalin isn't that wide I'd be really surprised if they didn't.

They didn´t exactly settle Hokkaido either though.

 

[Dakka]

All I would say for now is, we're aware of the differences between 1.20 and 1.19, which factors into some of our decision making

Which is the biggest disadvantage on our side. It's difficult to understand what is going on when you don't know what is changed and what hasn't

 

[Da9L]

GO, Bru9L!
Vassalize Tidore and Ternate (for their colonists) and make naval empire.
The seas are salty, therefore they are ours!​

I had completely missed that you made this! It's really awesome! Thanks And that's a good tagline

"The seas are salty, therefore they are ours!"