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PsychoLold

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however i have to point out that iam a little bit disappointed in the casting. though i do admit that the action this session was propably a little bit difficult to follow iam missing the explanation why and what is going on and what changed in the game seeing all those new "features" or hearing the "hints" and just getting a somewhat snarky remark about a dev diary or that it is work in progress is just not very satisfiing and yes jake always found the time to explain new things to us, even if they were work in progress and changed back.. like the fort-area-mechanic in the last campaign.

on the other hand i cant really let the argument count that there was so many things at so many places going on at the same time when johan himself wasnt using the spare time he got from the game speed but instead pushed for a faster speed.

like expected, i miss jakes cynical casting already :(.
I was quite happy with the commentary team. It's unfair to compare them to Jake. You're either born Jake or not. As you already pointed out there was lots of stuff going on at different places with tons of flags and relations to remember. This will ease up over time, when the major power blocks have formed and we know who to look out for in what regard. Also, Johan and Chris will get some more routine over time. Maybe Chris should help and interrupt Johan more often when he is in his "Johan state" again, when he starts a sentence, gets distracted and forgets how he wanted to finish that sentence.

About the game itself:
- Nobody has won in India yet. The "triumvirate of south-west India" has all reasons to turn against each other.
- I wonder if somebody has the ambition to form Malaya. If not, the south east asian islands should form a defensive pact against aggressors
- Dai Viet, please stop hurting my eyes and get that remaining Lan Xang territory between you and Ayuttayah
- Korea will be the crunchpoint for Wiz. If Japan wants to divide up Korea, they should to it asap.
 
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Well, we all know that the Daimyo can't stay quiet forever, as @Groogy is a massive attention seeker and will want to hog the observer's time as much as possible.

We were actually surprised with how well our plans went in Japan, it was a lot smoother and quicker than expected, but we now have a stable foundation to build upon. Also, whilst I may have a colonist now, that is merely for the current island I am colonizing, my long term plan does not involve it. So I will drop that idea group and get another one soon (losing a few diplo points to secure the island is a small price to pay).

Priority for me was quite simple though, it was my first dev mp and survival beyond the first session was the goal, which I succeeded at. How things pan out from now on remains to be seen. I obviously know what I want, but will have to see how the other players impact that and what happens as a result of their... interference.

Also, I'm second in score at the moment with six whole points! Woohoo! :p
 
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OldmansHQ

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But-but I coined IHKI, the Player Slayer. Not Jake :(. Not that I particularly care, but I would like to hear my name mentioned somewhere on stream ;). For the record, it's 'old-man's-HQ' as in head quarters.

Out of the lesser evils, my favourites are AlexIvan, IHKI, and Gnivom. They absolutely proved themselves interesting in the last game. Too bad the latter two are squeezed against each other so tightly. I like to think that Jake wore that cape all the way through the session. No, I take that back; I like to think that Jake wears that cape all the way, every day! Besides, I disagree with the statement that Groogy is not playing right, because he focuses on roleplay too much. I'd say he plays perfectly right, precisely because of that. Even if he doesn't get a trophy, he is a winner.

Right now I'd say that StarNaN is in the best position, with Baluchistan open to him. In time, perhaps he could even form the Mughals. Jake can only pray that Ming falls apart ASAP so he can expand eastwards. Like he said, there's Tibet, but that land is not lucrative at all compared to what's in the south, anyways he would clash against Wiz before long and wither in the process. I sense an interesting possible future development. Namely, the steppes can be conquered in a flash and they provide a load of Manpower, but little money. Conquering India, on the other hand, will be a laborious process with so many players of fairly even power squeezed in there. See where I'm going with this? In the early and middle game this could be an extremely advantageous arrangement to whoever of the Indians is the first to secure such alliance with the ruler of the steppes. Most likely Wiz. Speaking of which, I had high, high hopes for Mr. Nipples this time around, but his future doesn't look to bright. Also, Trin Tragula should be moved to Perm :p.

I don't think that any of the Japanese are going to set foot in Wiz backed Korea and vice versa. One team will have too many boats while the other too many bodies. But I am curious to see how the Japanese countries progress. How cool would it be to watch them share this small island and support each other till the end of the game?! There're so many people picking Exploration Ideas, not to mention the existence of the European colonisers... Although it's hard to comment on south-east Asia, I don't think Exploration will be the escape so many of the players want to rely on.

I asked for blood, and blood was spilt, but I'm a bit worried about the late game repercussions of putting so many players in positions where they get eliminated rapidly. In Europe land changed hands often, but people didn't die as much. But it could be just fine. I guess we'll see what happens next.

Well his expansion against the ai is more limited then the last two times he played, though knowing him he is propably trying to gank up on ming with korea and maybe oirat too. i dont know why they even allow him to start so far away from the "playerkiller". sending in the new players so close to ddrjake and starnan is quite harsh though i expect starnan to dominate india soon.

however i have to point out that iam a little bit disappointed in the casting. though i do admit that the action this session was propably a little bit difficult to follow iam missing the explanation why and what is going on and what changed in the game seeing all those new "features" or hearing the "hints" and just getting a somewhat snarky remark about a dev diary or that it is work in progress is just not very satisfiing and yes jake always found the time to explain new things to us, even if they were work in progress and changed back.. like the fort-area-mechanic in the last campaign.

on the other hand i cant really let the argument count that there was so many things at so many places going on at the same time when johan himself wasnt using the spare time he got from the game speed but instead pushed for a faster speed.

like expected, i miss jakes cynical casting already :(.
This. This! I get that everyone wants to already see the intriguing alliances and plots, but we don't need more speed. EU4 is not StarCraft. The tension comes from a different place than a crazy tempo, and it will be all that much more satisfying to witness great things happen after seeing them slowly come to surface. Also, someone give Johan a tissue! Nah. I get that it's a tic, like the ones that plague Slavoj Zizek. It's always funny when he casually swears, even though they shouldn't. It's obvious that Johan is his own boss :p.

Jake comes only for a moment at the end and completely turns around the mood. Overall, I think what the commentators lack the most is experience. Chris could increase his frequency and volume a little. But it could also be that the two don't click together. Doing live commentary is not as easy as one might think, and there's also personal charisma, so I don't anything it against the two. Though I wish the tributary mechanic was explained better.

India was dominated by the (up to then somewhat secret) Bahmani-Gujarat-Vijayanagar alliance of Bratyn's design.
The most interesting part is that it was one of the newbies who took the initiative. I like that.
 
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Hmm some interesting playstyles already although I'm surprised by some of them. I was sort of disappointed to see theletterZ not attempting to expand at all, but he seems to be focussing on teching up. I expect he is developing lands to spawn institutions? That would greatly benefit his main ally Wiz as well. However, that would also make him a juicy target for the Japanese players. I was sort of surprised they didn't at least kill off 1 Daimyo but it's possible if at least 2 of them focus on colonizing. Yet, I expect Groogy is eying up Zeke/Wiz with the help of mr Nibbles perhaps? He has nowhere else to go. If he wants to roleplay like he usually does, I wouldn't be surprised that Korea and "Manchuria" would be his first targets.

I don't think the Indian alliance of Vijay, Bahmanis and Gujarat has to break up soon. Vijay could go into Africa with exploration and religious and blob fast. Gujarat could go into the west against a weakened Timurids and expand from there. Bahmani's could focus on taking out Jake and uniting the rest of India and move east/north from there. Maybe Imse would be interested in helping them against Jake/Meneth too. Meneth is close to getting completely cut off so they will probably butt heads soon enough anyway. Imse also is in need of allies as she seems to be easy prey against whoever ends up on top east of her or west of her. @Meneth I wonder why you took so little land in the war against Orissa for example. You gave Nepal as a vassal to Jake and offered him quite some provinces from Orissa too while taking very few yourself. The balance doesn't seem to be in your favor.

Bjorn seems to have gotten very lucky that the moment he got invaded and about to be carpet sieged by I believe R Lazer, some religious rebels spawned which took out most his army. I assume Salty Daniel helped Ihki so he can provide help against Rufo next? That would sort off give him a monopoly over Indonesia and the Phillipines.

I actually think it's better to have people placed in Africa. The nations are a bit stronger and I sort of expect some Indian nations and perhaps Indonesian nations to try and move into Africa next. At the very least, Africa would be a very, very easy target for any blobbing player at the moment.
 
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PsychoLold

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Vijay could go into Africa with exploration and religious and blob fast.
I don't think this would be a good strategy. Early colonization in Africa is too slow, and Mutapa and friends are no pushover. If Vijayanagar goes down that route, he will fall back massively and always be the junior partner of the triumvirate and might even end up paying protection money - depending on StarNaN's and Bratyn's attitude. But especially StarNaN is not exactly renowned for being a benevolent strong neighbor.
This is just my personal view on things, of course. But if I was Katz, I would look for expansion routes outside of Africa.
 
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My thoughts:

I thought that the top three would end up being Wiz, StarNaN and Jake (probably in that order). It's obviously still very early, however with StarNaN effectively blocking off Jake, it'll be harder than I expected for him to keep pace unless Bahmanis can be turned against what is now a free-to-expand StarNaN that could start to run away with this fairly quickly. The rest of Asia is too crowded to really keep pace as well, so it will be hard to see who might arise from the rest of the pack to challenge Jake for a top three finish. Maybe someone sent off to the Americas will have an easier route, because otherwise that is a lot of players to take out. Unless, of course, someone other than Wiz can take a big enough bite out of Ming.

As for Katz in Vijayanagar, exploration seems like his only route at this point, but given the status quo that might be a pretty good route in the end. Yes, he'll probably have to mostly go west to Africa as there are a lot of other colonizers to his east, although he might be able to get something out of the eastern route (and open up a new route of expansion), and also taking the east coast of Africa (as well as getting closer to the Europeans to get an advantage when it comes to tech and getting institutions) also offer some pretty good rewards even if it does spread his empire out a bit more than ideal. Honestly, unless Bahmanis gets all of Jake's and Delhi's land, they are probably in better position than anyone other than StarNaN and Wiz (and whoever gets a big bite out of China), unless one of the indonesians can consolidate the region.

I think Bahmanis are going to be the key to India, and therefore the key to deciding who is going to possibly challenge Wiz. If they stick with the status quo, they are probably going to struggle long term unless StarNaN and Katz give them a REALLY good deal on the rest of India; if they switch sides and support Jake, then they open up another avenue of expansion while keeping a potential run-away in StarNaN in check, though that comes with the cost of releasing another dangerous player in Jake.

The casters did better for their first stream than I had expected. I think they'll probably be fine after a while - growing pains learning to cast and all. Three things stuck out to me, two of which has already been mentioned so I'll start with the third. They were checking the scoreboard a few times, and I get it - they want to emphasize that they are now tracking score within each age of the game. However, beyond the fact that this is a long game and there will be plenty of time to delve into the scores, the players are all playing in Asia, and none of them are Ming. That means they aren't going to really be getting much score early on, and that was a fair amount of time wasted essentially checking the ledger to say "Nope, they don't have a point yet. Neither do they. Oh, someone finally accrued a point!" Meanwhile, and this ties into my other two points, it seemed like we barely had any time checking on who had gotten any progress towards the new Splendor mechanics (which I would think would be more interesting to the viewers this early in the game). My other comment is another that was already mentioned: Johan demanding StarNaN to speed up the game. Sure, you don't want the game to get so slow that viewers are losing interest, but that is primarily a function of the commentators being able to talk about what is going on, and even on speed 2 there was a WHOLE lot going on that just wasn't being covered. Many player wars, most of which we only saw glimpses of, meant that we as viewers could only get so much of a sense of what was going on, and yet despite struggling to keep a good eye on the plethora of events going on, is that really the time to demand that the players need to get back to playing at speed 3 if they themselves felt it better to be playing at speed 2? It would be one thing if the casters were keeping up with all of the action, but trying to make the game go faster simply to make it go faster didn't seem like the best option for the viewers. Hopefully next session the players will be able to have greater control of the pace of the game, allowing the commentators to better commentate on what is going on in the game.


Just my take on it, but all in all, I think it was a promising first session. Should be a good series!
 
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You don't need the colonies completely grown to get religious CB. You'll still be there faster than anyone else unless someone does a no cb war. By being the first in South Africa, you'll cut off quite some options for everyone regarding expanding west.

I also think it's usually relatively easy to just beat Mutapa. They don't have allies most of the time and the AI usually falls behind in military tech. By the time you can get there as Vijay they have a forcelimit of about 20k; something you should easily beat. Obviously you need to keep a watchful eye out, but once Jake would be destroyed, only Bahmanis and Gujarat would be a possible threat. Yet, both of them have ways to expand. You'll just need to ensure ties with 1 of them to make sure you aren't the one getting stabbed.
 

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I was quite happy with the commentary team. It's unfair to compare them to Jake. You're either born Jake or not. As you already pointed out there was lots of stuff going on at different places with tons of flags and relations to remember.

Yes and as i also pointed out, this argument is somehwhat negated by the fact that Johan was pushing for more speed even though he already had trouble to cover some of it.

I was never expecting the casting to be as good as jake, i mean.. jake is a streamer with years of experience to draw upon but i also feel that i have to be honest with my feedback even though it may be a harsh critique.

This is especially true when i feel that the stream wasnt a very pleasant experience for me because of the manner of the casting. And yes beeing forced to look at the dev diarys to even get a grasp to whats going on is a very mood point in that regard. I would even go as far and say, while jakes casting got me or kept me interrested in the game and the upcoming dlc.. johan right now managed the contrary for me.
 
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Let's give them a chance to grow into it. But it would help if they would change mapmodes a bit more once the situation calls for it (and actually select a relevant nation if you select diplomatic mapmode) and it would help if Johan would blow his nose before the stream starts.
 

Pełpeł

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I have recreated situation in India, Indochina and Indonesia and from what I have seen it's not that unbalanced for alliance blocks.
(ForceLimit: FL; Income: IN)
SouthWest block:
Bahmanis FL:32(+6 vassal) IN:19
Gujarat FL:21(+9 vassal) IN:13,5
Vijayangar FL:24(+11 vassal) IN:15,5

Together FL:103 (77|26) IN:48


NorthEast block:
Jaunpur FL:32(+7 vassal) IN:15,5
Dai Viet FL:27 IN:11,5
Bengal FL:22 IN:13

(Brunei) FL:16 IN:9

Together FL:104 (97|7) IN: 49

IF NorthEast takes innitiative it would to be impossible to win - biggest weakness of NorthEast is logistics. Everybody keeps talking about Bahmanis, when in truth Jaunpur is equal (1FL more, while Bahmanis gets +0,5 tradition). If ANYBODY does not participate, outcome is pretty much decided, and Vijayangar would gain a lot from not participating.

In my opinion more crucial role will play other countries like Lan Xang, Mong Yang, Ayuthaya, Malacca, Pasai and Majapahit and involvement of any of them could change everything. Lan Xang could stall Dai Viet, Ayuthaya could go after Lan Xang and SouthWest for promise of Indochina (Dai viet could still expand into Ming), Pasai and Majapahit could go after Brunei for dominance in Indonesia, and Mong Yang due to it's position it can play huge role in this conflict.

Really, this all will come down just to diplomacy and can be swayed either way
 
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zoislk

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I have recreated situation in India, Indochina and Indonesia and from what I have seen it's not that unbalanced for alliance blocks.
(ForceLimit: FL; Income: IN)
SouthWest block:
Bahmanis FL:32(+6 vassal) IN:19
Gujarat FL:21(+9 vassal) IN:13,5
Vijayangar FL:24(+11 vassal) IN:15,5

Together FL:103 (77|26) IN:48


NorthEast block:
Jaunpur FL:32(+7 vassal) IN:15,5
Dai Viet FL:27 IN:11,5
Bengal FL:22 IN:13

(Brunei) FL:16 IN:9

Together FL:104 (97|7) IN: 49

IF NorthEast takes innitiative it would to be impossible to win - biggest weakness of NorthEast is logistics. Everybody keeps talking about Bahmanis, when in truth Jaunpur is equal (1FL more, while Bahmanis gets +0,5 tradition). If ANYBODY does not participate, outcome is pretty much decided, and Vijayangar would gain a lot from not participating.

In my opinion more crucial role will play other countries like Lan Xang, Mong Yang, Ayuthaya, Malacca, Pasai and Majapahit and involvement of any of them could change everything. Lan Xang could stall Dai Viet, Ayuthaya could go after Lan Xang and SouthWest for promise of Indochina (Dai viet could still expand into Ming), Pasai and Majapahit could go after Brunei for dominance in Indonesia, and Mong Yang due to it's position it can play huge role in this conflict.

Really, this all will come down just to diplomacy and can be swayed either way

Sure, IF Ihki is part of the alliance, IF you add in Da9L, IF no one expands and IF you don't take into account positioning, then the current situation is fairly even. That's a few notable IFs in there.

-Northeast is cut off from Northwest India via StarNaN's Gujarat. Between the Northeast block's lands are neutral players. That's a spread out alliance block that has to arrange for passage through other nations, and as such they are both easier to pick off and more at risk of being attacked on another front (if not by players in the middle of them).

-The only ones that can really expand freely in the Northeast block is Da9L, and that's only if you include him in the block (I haven't seen him in any alliance with Bengal or Jaunpur, and he said that he helped Ihki in Dai Viet because Ihki paid him off for it. It seems like he's a free agent at the moment, and wars in India are a bit out of the way for him. It would be more realistic to assume he isn't part of that block until shown otherwise, and Ihki might or might not be either - he is out of the way, and we don't know the specifics as to why Jake was helping him out (could be an alliance forming there, or it could be that Ihki paid him for his help).

-StarNaN can expand more freely than anyone in the game at the moment. Katz can colonize almost as easily as can Da9L.

-Ihki could go the colonization route as well, though it's pretty crowded with colonizers over there for less easily accessible provinces and he seems more likely to just conquer lands instead. Africa isn't an option for him, unlike Katz.

Sure, the Northeastern block (whether that is really 2 players of 4) could expand somewhat by conquering other players (for Bengal/Dai Viet) and taking poor Tibetan lands (for Jaunpur) that are bottlenecked by wastelands on two sides and Ming on the other (as well as putting themselves in direct contention with either Grekulf or Wiz), but that is going to be more costly and time consuming than is conquering AI in Northwest India and eastern Africa.
 
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Pełpeł

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I thought i have seen Jaunpur allied to Brunei, but maybe I remembered wrong. Jaunpur has Tibet and some other notso obvious expands, as into Indochina. It is true that from valuable land they are limited to Indochina/nesia, but what I was trying to say is that Northeast is not at so bad spot if they do some diplomacy. But more than positioning right now the question is what is current manpower for all of them. With the change in merc cost it'll be far more important to have more mp banked
 

zoislk

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I thought i have seen Jaunpur allied to Brunei, but maybe I remembered wrong. Jaunpur has Tibet and some other notso obvious expands, as into Indochina. It is true that from valuable land they are limited to Indochina/nesia, but what I was trying to say is that Northeast is not at so bad spot if they do some diplomacy. But more than positioning right now the question is what is current manpower for all of them. With the change in merc cost it'll be far more important to have more mp banked

I think Dai Viet allied Brunei and Jaunpur, but Dai Viet didn't ally Bengal and Brunei didn't ally either Indian player. Obviously, we don't know the terms of those alliances. I would imagine that Jake (Jaunpur) wants Ihki (Dai Viet) to finish off Gnovim (Lan Xang) and be a viable ally in the future. Da9L is probably more interested in colonizing and making a profit for contributing in mainland wars, but probably not too concerned by what goes on in India (unless he feels he needs to balance out the situation, or if the price is right). As for Ihki... who knows what his motives are, but potentially Bengal wants some of the same land that Dai Viet does, unless they only want to go north into China after finishing off Lan Xang (and possibly Ayutthaya and then Malacca). However, that's just my guess and the players could easily have something else up their sleeves.
 

Wagonlitz

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Sfan

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Even if the Northeast alliance would include Brunei, which I think is not guaranteed, you assume that Gnivom will sit still and give military access to Ihki who just backstabbed him. We have seen how Gnivom reacts to a setback, he fights like a madman even if it means losing more. My bet is that the moment Ihki tries to help, he will get attacked by Gnivom, possibly with the help of Ayutthaya and/or Malacca, whom we know nothing about right now. Jaunpur and Bengal need to find reliable friends, and there is a cruel lack of friends. They cannot side with Gnivom unless they drop Ihki but this is not beneficial, Imse has more to gain by siding with the soutwest guys if she can get the Bengal Delta in exchange for her help... They are pretty much alone, so I don't see them winning this unless the block of the 3 people southwest breaks, but I don't think this will happen before Jake is crushed.
I don't see which help they could get right now, because Indochina is too crowded for anyone there to overcommit to a war in India, and the rest of the players are too far away. Majapahit or Brunei could surely save the day once more, but what do they exactly have to gain? They are better off minding their own colonial business and helping which side they like the most in Indochina, and not to antagonize anyone elsewhere. Japan is extremely far away, and if anything, I think it is more likely than the opposite to see Wiz do a Johan and subsidize whoever fights Jake.
Bahmanis' greed and willingness to be the strong man of India by taking StarNan's preferential western position bordering AIs is the only thing that could save the day of the Northeners, and that would truly be a wonderful backstab, but I don't see that happening next session, even if it grieves me.
 
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Pełpeł

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Brdy_3_1.jpg


Yamana Sōzen-Sama,
Venerable Red Monk,
We, the people of Nihon come to You, one of the greatest Shogu, with a plea. We heard of leader rising and uniting Manchu tribes. The tales tell, that he is one of Tengu, ancestor of Sutoku-tennō. What is more there is great red Oni, who holds golden goblets stolen from mortals as a trinket of victory. We fear that times of Mongol incursions will happen again. We won then, but now threat is greater than ever. We also fear for repeat of Ōnin War. We cannot let to be divided. We should unite and stand together to, like true bushi, find glory in battle for the Shogunate. It is a matter of our survival and honor.

As first step bushi of Nihon should take back rightfully ours island of Sakhalin. The Manchu tribes are occupying lands, which from ages belonged to Ainu, who by the law serve Shogunate. After securing foothold in Manchu, we should push back and defeat ancestor of Sutoku-tennō and bring back honor to Emperors name.

Please, Yamana Sōzen-Sama, bring us the peace of heart, that Your people crave for.
Your faithful servants.
 
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