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volksmarschall

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Really nice update! It's good to hear some proper declining is around the corner!

Thanks! It's nice to see how committed some of the Old Guard readers are, considering that over the last year and half(ish) this project has gone from a sprint to crawl. Marathons are tough. 40 pages, and not even 100 years of game play!

Yes, I'm excited for the decline too. Not only does it fulfill my promise of what this AAR is, it also, both tearfully and joyfully, means I'm nearing the completion of this AAR. For many reasons, I don't want to "not finish it" or "let it die" because of how faithfully so many have been reading since this was started oh so long ago. We're still on target to beat Gibbon's time to completion! :p

(Update was on the previous page here)
 

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I have a bad feeling about this war. A very bad feeling.
 

NightmareSSV

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It's my pleasure to be but a simple reader :)

tbh, the slowing of this AAR has not only extended its life, but made it much more riveting (imo), because I know it'll be a while before the next update. I too will be sad to see it go, I've been reading for so long, but, as they say, all good things come to an end!
 

volksmarschall

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I have a bad feeling about this war. A very bad feeling.

How bad? Not bad at all? Really? Of course not! The title of this AAR is THE DECLINE AND FALL OF ROMAN CIVILIZATION! :p The promise can be discharged at long last, but not soon enough. Not soon enough at all...

I admit I'm still at a loss as to where the narrative conclusion is going to be.

It's my pleasure to be but a simple reader :)

tbh, the slowing of this AAR has not only extended its life, but made it much more riveting (imo), because I know it'll be a while before the next update. I too will be sad to see it go, I've been reading for so long, but, as they say, all good things come to an end!

I suppose there's that. It's mostly a case of just massive burn out on my part. Studying where I do doesn't help either. Not to mention that that historiography paper that I had mentioned in the past I've finally got around to submitting for publication. hahaha. Took long enough.

Well, the journey wouldn't have been as fun without the readers and commentators! Admittedly, I was a bit sad to write this update. I just killed the Empress of Seduction! With Sophia now gone (with John having died some time ago now), the two great characters that have dominated this AAR from like page 20-35/36 whenever I started "volume III" are now gone from the picture. :( I think it's a fitting irony how Sophia died if you remember all the back story and hints I'd written about her a year and half ago now! :p

Subbed... I've got to read it all now ;) :)

Welcome Anon! Don't tire yourself out slogging thru 40 pages of AAR, and something like 300 pages in Word at 12-pt font! :p Although it's nice to see you here! :)
 

volksmarschall

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Chapter XXXI

The Last Regent

Andronikus Katakalon was the first son of a now obscure Greek noble family. Part of the problem of the Greek nobility’s war with the Palaiologi was the interaction between the two sides during the reign of Emperor John the Great. As we recall, John’s centralizing reforms were the last effort from the Palaiologoi emperors to attempt to produce a codified and coherent central administrative state capable of meeting the demands that the empire had before it. The decentralized empire stood little chance against the Turks, or the resurgent Balkan powers. Likewise, the empire had a problem in Venice and the various Italian states.

John’s campaigns of reform, and the Italian Wars, ultimately reflected a man who clearly understood the necessity of reform into a modern state. Sadly, his murder by the Greek nobles cast the empire down the well yet again. Their bid to secure and retain power spelled the demise of whatever chance John had at building a strong central state that could recover all the Balkans and begin a conquest of the historically Greek lands of Anatolia.

Andronikus was part of the war party of the Greek administration. He believed in what could only be described as an irredentist foreign policy. But at what cost? He avoided suspicion because of his relatively good relationships with the empress prior to her murder. Likewise, he was of relative obscurity compared to other notables who garnered greater suspicion for their stature. Not to mention the murder did, in every way, seem to be a suicide of passion and eros more than outright murder. Andronikus’ power politics led him to secure a majority of support within the court to be the regent of Constantine XII, still too young to role the empire by any standard.

Whatever Andronikus’ merits were as a schemer and political opportunist, he was not the man to take control of the empire in its moment of crisis. As Turkic soldiers marched into Cairo, and the competent empress Sophia killed, the Byzantine court and administration descended into madness and chaos yet again. In Greece, the Greek nobles seized control again. In Trebizond, the Komnenoi recovered their privileged status as de facto rulers over the territories in Anatolia and Armenia. Meanwhile, Andronikus simply held firm control over Constantinople and the 10,000 soldier imperial garrison there.


The only surviving painting of Andronikus, regent of the Roman Empire, 1539-1540.

Of course, he inherited the spy network of Sophia to suit his own plans. It wasn’t long until he began a sweeping attempt to consolidate power. While this was not necessarily wrong-headed, he was not the ideal candidate to push for such reforms. Moreover, he conspired with General Gabras, now released from prison, to retake control of the Greek estates for him. Although formerly the tool of the Greek aristocracy, Gabras was all too willing to exert his revenge against the nobles that led him to ruination and the tainting of his career.

After a year of rule, Andronikus launcehd his bid to secure the empire for himself. With his connections in the lower ranks of the army—especially among the junior officers whose loyalty was to coin rather than throne, he launched a three-pronged invasion of the empire’s own major centers: Athens, Constantinople, and Trebizond. He aimed to seize power once and for all from the nobles whom he seemingly ruled in favor of since raising to the regent position in Constantinople.

In the meantime, others were well aware of his scheming. A counter faction of royalists were assembling at the same time to ensure Constantine XII would become emperor. Having recently turned 14 years old, some even asserted he was of proper age to rule. The royalists had a big advantage in having the holy father, the Ecumenical Patriarch, on their side. Patriarch Manuel was an old conservative, a fervent promoter of “Caesaro-Papism”, the belief that religion and state were enjoined together until the Second Coming and that Christ’s Second Coming would occur after the emperor restored Christian role over the holy cities in Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria. This seemed to escape Andronikus who was preoccupied with dealing a major blow to the nobles.

The Coup

At night, in Athens, Constantinople, and Trebizond, Andronikus launched his coup against the nobles who threatened the consummation of his rule. Gabras in Athens, having been privately restored to the rank of commander of the Greek forces, pushed into the heart of the city and launched around 15 smaller raids against the most notable Greek families. In Trebizond, junior officers loyal to the new regent also stormed Trabzon Castle, the seat of the Komnenoi family. Soldiers stormed the streets wielding torches and swords, restlessly arresting those dissenters.

The showdown at Trabzon Castle was fittingly poetic and byzantine. Some 200 soldiers of the Imperial Guard stormed the entrance and demanded entry into the castle halls. The guards of the castle refused, and were killed. The men stormed into the castle anyway. The youngest Komnenos, Alexei, 8 or 9 years old, scampered off to war the garrison of the attack. Imperial soldiers entered the royal champers and arrested the Komnenoi family. As they left, they were ambushed in the courtyard. A battle between the castle guards and Imperial soldiers ensued. Under the moon’s light, and the torchers of the coup plotters, the battle led to the death of the entire castle garrison and about half of the Imperial soldiers. The empress Maria Komnenos was also killed during the battle.

The young Alexei would escape capture. He faded away into history, unknown what became of him. Some say he fled into the hills where he would return one day to restore the glory of the Roman Empire and the Komnenoi Family. Others say he managed to find his way north into Russia, and became the emperor Alexander I of Russia in 1571 and gave Russia its ideology of “The Third Rome.” Of course, all such stories seem silly. More than likely, he just faded away into obscurity and never attempted to be the pretender that some later mythologists built around his mysterious character and person.


A depiction of the arrest of a Roman aristocrat during Andronikus' coup in August of 1540. The coup decimated the remnant aristocracy of the Roman Empire.

The silencing of the Greek nobles went much more smoothly, in part, because most of the 8,000 soldiers of the Greek Army were steadfastly loyal to Gabras. Having been restored, nearly all the soldiers joined him in the crackdown of the Greek nobles, who had little power to fight back and accepted their arrests with relative dignity, or several were killed in their resistance.

When Gabras sprang into action, the city of Athens bustled with movement, torches, and hundreds of arrests. Several merchants recount being “awakened by morning” only to realize it was the movement of soldiers carrying torches through the streets en route to their destinations. The swift actions by Andronikus brought all but the city of Constantinople under his thumb.

In the city of Constantine, where his rule was most secure, he only had a few dissident nobles to silence. But they possessed small private armies of their own. Mostly Italian mercenaries. In Constantinople, the movement against former co-regent Michael Phokas was swift and brutal. Roman soldiers moved into his villa, storming his home, and murdering him in his bath. Blood poured over the sides. Within the palace halls, the former advisors to Sophia were all arrested by the palace guards. Included among them were the counter-plotting royalists, who were already setting their plans in motion in anticipation of Andronikus’ seizure of power. It would not be long until Constantinople’s foundations shook with the revolution of the counter-coup.


 
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NightmareSSV

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Chapter XXXI

The Last Regent


Really good update! Andronikus seems an intriguing character; will watch out for him in future :)

With his brief mention, it struck me that John the Great is reminiscent somewhat of Majorian; they were both highly capable and ambitious, they both not only placed the greater good above personal gain but actually managed to see what that greater good was, (while many of their counterparts didn't) and attempted, unsuccessfully, though not for their own failings, to enact reforms to combat the corruption and decadence of the state. Is that intentional? Accidental? I'd just never seen that correlation before, and it kinda struck me when I first thought about it.
 

volksmarschall

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Really good update! Andronikus seems an intriguing character; will watch out for him in future :)

With his brief mention, it struck me that John the Great is reminiscent somewhat of Majorian; they were both highly capable and ambitious, they both not only placed the greater good above personal gain but actually managed to see what that greater good was, (while many of their counterparts didn't) and attempted, unsuccessfully, though not for their own failings, to enact reforms to combat the corruption and decadence of the state. Is that intentional? Accidental? I'd just never seen that correlation before, and it kinda struck me when I first thought about it.

I've been making a lot of references to Roman history, both explicit and embedded throughout this work. Although it would be wrong to take in a glorifying manner (because I actually hold a deeply negative of the Roman Empire in the sense that I can't stand a lot of fanboys of both Rome and the Byzantines--hence why there's a lot of discussion in this AAR about other things that those podcasts and popular histories never bring up). I mean the horrors of the latifundia are not known to most of the fanboys, or that it's a Roman System that is the basis for the "dark age agrarianism" that followed the collapse of Rome. Let alone slavery built the Roman Empire and its economy. But hey, "the glory of Rome" allows us to gloss over this right? (And please, please stop calling 400-1000 C.E. "The Dark Ages", since the 1970s it's been known as "Late Antiquity" for those of us in the university.) :p

I have some pet peeves as someone published in Late Antiquity scholarship. I admit, I think the university shares blame too. If we haven't been able, in 50 years, to change public consciousness over this time period as really being a flourishing of art, culture, law, philosophy, and theology, obviously we must share some blame for this too...

As you have certainly gleamed from reading, a lot of this AAR is, I hope, bringing out a lot of fun facts and history. I couldn't help myself in the post about the crescent moon back in the past now.

John is crafted after several historical emperors, so it's wonderful to see others the "connecting the dots" as it were. ;) And that the constant war between the emperors and aristocracy in this AAR, is this AAR's reversal of the "Conflict of the Orders" that dominated ancient Rome. I do believe I made a reference to this and the Gracci brothers some time ago too. So it's great to see that this AAR is awakening the cobwebs so to speak. It makes me feel good that an AAR can get people to think about things like that instead of just reading (although I do truly appreciate the reading of course, otherwise I wouldn't feel compelled to continue). :cool:
 
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Idhrendur

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I've been making a lot of references to Roman history, both explicit and embedded throughout this work. Although it would be wrong to take in a glorifying manner (because I actually hold a deeply negative of the Roman Empire in the sense that I can't stand a lot of fanboys of both Rome and the Byzantines--hence why there's a lot of discussion in this AAR about other things that those podcasts and popular histories never bring up). I mean the horrors of the latifundia are not known to most of the fanboys, or that it's a Roman System that is the basis for the "dark age agrarianism" that followed the collapse of Rome. Let alone slavery built the Roman Empire and its economy. But hey, "the glory of Rome" allows us to gloss over this right? (And please, please stop calling 400-1000 C.E. "The Dark Ages", since the 1970s it's been known as "Late Antiquity" for those of us in the university.) :p

I have some pet peeves as someone published in Late Antiquity scholarship. I admit, I think the university shares blame too. If we haven't been able, in 50 years, to change public consciousness over this time period as really being a flourishing of art, culture, law, philosophy, and theology, obviously we must share some blame for this too...

As you have certainly gleamed from reading, a lot of this AAR is, I hope, bringing out a lot of fun facts and history. I couldn't help myself in the post about the crescent moon back in the past now.

All of a sudden, I appreciate that 'The History Of Rome' podcast and 'The History of Byzantium' podcasts referencing those topics (if not discuss them in depth given the focus on a narrative history). It doesn't take much more than mention to dispel that vision of pure military glory, fortunately.

And given that my field (computing) hasn't made the names Shannon, Neumann, or Turing well known in the last 70 years (okay, maybe Turing now that he's been shown (in an overblown way) as the main character in a movie involving a side aspect of a major war), let alone Lovelace or Babbage, I'd not feel bad that the last 50 years have been slow for history. If my field hadn't shown a startling practicality, we'd be even more ignored. It's just the nature of such things to make it to the pop culture slowly, if at all.

And I did rather enjoy that post about the crescent moon (I don't know if you ever noticed, but when I introduced a major revolt in my AAR, I gave them reason to use a flag with the crescent moon after being inspired by that post).
 

volksmarschall

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All of a sudden, I appreciate that 'The History Of Rome' podcast and 'The History of Byzantium' podcasts referencing those topics (if not discuss them in depth given the focus on a narrative history). It doesn't take much more than mention to dispel that vision of pure military glory, fortunately.

And given that my field (computing) hasn't made the names Shannon, Neumann, or Turing well known in the last 70 years (okay, maybe Turing now that he's been shown (in an overblown way) as the main character in a movie involving a side aspect of a major war), let alone Lovelace or Babbage, I'd not feel bad that the last 50 years have been slow for history. If my field hadn't shown a startling practicality, we'd be even more ignored. It's just the nature of such things to make it to the pop culture slowly, if at all.

And I did rather enjoy that post about the crescent moon (I don't know if you ever noticed, but when I introduced a major revolt in my AAR, I gave them reason to use a flag with the crescent moon after being inspired by that post).

It perturbs me to no end. Especially since many self-proclaimed history enthusiasts still call this period the "Dark Ages" and continue to perpetuate the old myths. I mean, in the "Dark Ages" life expectancy rose compared to what it was in the Roman Empire days. New technology, inventions, great strides in culture, arts, and philosophy, hardly a "dark age" by any standard. I would figure such enthusiasts would at least get that right--it clearly shows they have little interest in proper scholarship, just read some books about Rome and what not and claim some sort of expertise on the matter.

Some podcasts are alright. I think they have their merit. They should not be taken as gospel however. It's like everyone who says Justinian was wonderful. Meglomaniac. Brought death and destruction to everything he touched. Created the equivalent of a humanitarian crisis when he invaded Italy. And if the Codex that bears him came out of the blue. Legal reforms occurred long before him to which he merely inherited and produced more reforms, the Theodosian Code, Hermogenian Code, and Gregorian Code all precede him, making life a lot easier for Justinian to further reform already reformed codes of law. But I digress. :p

I must have missed that. It's a fun tidbit. Albeit perhaps an important one all things considered.

I'm not sure computing has a major audience as "history", especially Roman and Byzantine history does, does it? :p I mean, I remember my basic history survey course that covered this era back as an undergrad, the prof had to state to the class "We don't call this period the Dark Ages anymore, so don't call it the Dark Ages so I don't have to say this the first day of class anymore." xD It's just for me, I can understand how a sudden paradigm shift doesn't catch on right away. But we've had since 1971 to change the dynamic of understanding "the Dark Ages" to "Late Antiquity" and yet far more people in the public still refer to it as the Dark Ages. I think horrendous "documentaries" on the BBC, History, or Discovery that have the title "THE DARK AGES" doesn't help.... :mad:

As my philosophy of AAR-ing entails, not only--I hope--can we produce a work that's interesting enough for readers to figure out what's going on in-game, I also hope we can take away critical perspectives, and enhance our knowledge of history (mostly cultural of course, since the game's unfolding of events is obviously not "true history" even if I used historical examples and cultural history as the foundation for basing my re-writes).

The History of Rome podcast is fair. One of the better ones.
 

NightmareSSV

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It's really interesting to hear you say all that, as someone who, despite loving history and the era especially, does see Late Antiquity as something of a dark-age. While I'm aware that a great deal of progress was made, you can't deny a huge amount was also lost. I think, as someone who is also very political, I see it as a 'dark age' because of the, quite literal, rise of tribalism and the fall of a united European political entity and identity that was the Fall of the West.

And yes, for all its majesty, the 'Glory of Rome' cannot hide the horror that was the Imperium. As you said, it was an empire built on slavery. However, every empire before it was, so I don't think that really tarnishes the Roman legacy – I love Rome for what made it stand out; the vast conquests and military excellence, the championing of Hellenistic thought that has given us the very foundations of the modern West, the breathtakingly long (over 2000 year) lifespan, and so on.

And anyway, the most and greatest progress of the time was made in the Islamic world, not Europe; the collapse of the Roman Empire did, undeniably, plunge Europe into a period of decline it would take centuries to recover from. While, as you described, Rome was far from civilised, it represented something almost as good: the veneer of civilisation. The states that succeeded it didn’t have this, whatever the reality. The Vandals, for example, preserved what they found in Africa and culture and learning flourished under them, but their very name has, quite literally, come to mean someone who is uncultured and destructive, even though they were the complete opposite. It is this connotation between Germanic and bad that, from the Romans themselves, has blinded many to the reality of post-Roman Europe.

I guess I am something of a Romanophile, but I'm not blind to the barbarity of it, nor any other state. Rome shared, like all other nations throughout history, in its share of blood and violence. Its only the sheer scale and efficiency of the Roman world that makes this dark side stand out compared to others.

But I suppose thats why I do so love Late Antiquity: during the Fall of the West, perhaps the darkest point in Roman history, there was still remarkable individuals who faught and died because they trully beleived that Rome was worth doing so for - Majorian is a great example of this, but Syagrius, is I would say, even better; he was doing this as an isolated duke ruling over a war-stricken land, while Majorian was a mighty emperor.

TL;DR: I think Rome's great, but I agree it has been romanticised beyond recognition.
 
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It's really interesting to hear you say all that, as someone who, despite loving history and the era especially, does see Late Antiquity as something of a dark-age. While I'm aware that a great deal of progress was made, you can't deny a huge amount was also lost. I think, as someone who is also very political, I see it as a 'dark age' because of the, quite literal, rise of tribalism and the fall of a united European political entity and identity that was the Fall of the West.

And yes, for all its majesty, the 'Glory of Rome' cannot hide the horror that was the Imperium. As you said, it was an empire built on slavery. However, every empire before it was, so I don't think that really tarnishes the Roman legacy – I love Rome for what made it stand out; the vast conquests and military excellence, the championing of Hellenistic thought that has given us the very foundations of the modern West, the breathtakingly long (over 2000 year) lifespan, and so on.

And anyway, the most and greatest progress of the time was made in the Islamic world, not Europe; the collapse of the Roman Empire did, undeniably, plunge Europe into a period of decline it would take centuries to recover from. While, as you described, Rome was far from civilised, it represented something almost as good: the veneer of civilisation. The states that succeeded it didn’t have this, whatever the reality. The Vandals, for example, preserved what they found in Africa and culture and learning flourished under them, but their very name has, quite literally, come to mean someone who is uncultured and destructive, even though they were the complete opposite. It is this connotation between Germanic and bad that, from the Romans themselves, has blinded many to the reality of post-Roman Europe.

I guess I am something of a Romanophile, but I'm not blind to the barbarity of it, nor any other state. Rome shared, like all other nations throughout history, in its share of blood and violence. Its only the sheer scale and efficiency of the Roman world that makes this dark side stand out compared to others.

But I suppose thats why I do so love Late Antiquity: during the Fall of the West, perhaps the darkest point in Roman history, there was still remarkable individuals who faught and died because they trully beleived that Rome was worth doing so for - Majorian is a great example of this, but Syagrius, is I would say, even better; he was doing this as an isolated duke ruling over a war-stricken land, while Majorian was a mighty emperor.

TL;DR: I think Rome's great, but I agree it has been romanticised beyond recognition.

Romanophiles are fine! I suppose I'm, in my own way, one since I spend so much time in the subject matter. :p

The age of Late Antiquity is wonderful. But you highlight a great divide among the scholars of the era, between the Continuists and Catastrophists. The Continuists tend to be intellectual and cultural historians. The Catastrophists tend to be political and military historians, or partial to such views. Naturally there's a ripe divide there. ;) And of course, as an intellectual historian and philosopher, I'm someone who considers "Islam" part of the Western tradition. Abrahamic religion. Classical Islamic philosophy and theology is premised upon Platonism and Aristotelianism, just like Christianity. But I'm not going to devolve as to why Islam is not considered Western, there's some cans I don't open on an internet forum...(Although you could have probably guessed that since I've actually spent time dealing with the Islamic nations in this AAR.)

Although as an intellectual historian and philosopher, Hellenism as the "foundation of the modern West" isn't really the University position... :p

I think we're on the same page, nothing of what I said was directed at you, personally. I just get off an anecdotal asides sometimes. :p I got really excited that you saw the connection between John X (John the Great in the game) and Majorian and a few others. Not that you should re-read the AAR, but now that you're aware of this being embedded in the text you might have a lot of fun seeing what so much of what I've written is premised off of. ;)

Have you happened to read the works of Peter Brown, the eminent historian of the period? He's wonderful. Peter Well's Barbarians to Angels and The Barbarians Speak are also among the best books of Late Antiquity that rank right up with Brown's World of Late Antiquity. As is Roger Collins' Early Medieval Europe. The problem is, though, if there was a "dark age" as claimed, it began during the late Roman period and not after the fall of the empire, so Rome very much shares its part of the blame in that story...

I find this quite amusing from a German-speaking perspective. It has always been The Middle Ages (Das Mittelalter). The term Dark Ages simply doesn't exist here.

Hey @GulMacet! Long time no see. I hope all is well. :)

It's mostly an English-speaking phenomenon. We're all screwed up in the Anglosphere for a lot of reasons. :p The German historians of the period are exceptional. Although I had to learn German for philosophical study and not Late Antiquity, doesn't mean I don't make use of that knowledge to read their scholarship. Secondary languages are, honestly, more important than the primary insofar that I'm more historiographer than primary source historian in real life.

It certainly stems from the putrid evil of "Whig History" that has so blinded Anglosphere intellectual history. xD
 
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volksmarschall

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These screenshots are so so so old. :p

This is ongoing during the current writing period. Rebels. Rebels. Rebels. Silence the rebels. My way of talking about Regent Andronikus's push against the conspirators, the nobles.



Also thought you all should get a look at what we've accomplished in 96 years.
 
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NightmareSSV

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The Continuists tend to be intellectual and cultural historians. The Catastrophists tend to be political and military historians

Thats me all over. My love of history is primarily (though by no means limited to) military and political bases, so yes, I'm very much a Catastrophist.

I'm someone who considers "Islam" part of the Western tradition. Abrahamic religion.

Tottaly in agreement; especialy suring the early years, the Islamic Empires were decidedly Western.

Hellenism as the "foundation of the modern West" isn't really the University position... :p

Of course, as with any such black & white / simplistic statement, it will always be untrue in so many ways. However without the Roman Empire, such ideas simply would not be so prevalent. A world without Romano-Greek philosophical dominance in the West, over a period of many centuries, would be a radically different one.
Anyway, I by no means claim to be a Uni-level professional; I just love history and now quite a bit about it because of it.

Have you happened to read the works of Peter Brown, the eminent historian of the period?

I can't say I have, thank you for the recommendation! :D

The problem is, though, if there was a "dark age" as claimed, it began during the late Roman period and not after the fall of the empire, so Rome very much shares its part of the blame in that story...

Oh, absolutely. Post Crisis of the Third Century, the corruption and decadence of the Empire only engrained themselves deeper. If the barrage of barbarian invasians and the cold period of the Migration Age had occured during the height of Empire, then I think it would have, with comparative ease, weathered the storm and come out on top.
The Roman Empire during the Dominate sowed the seeds of its own destruction, and in many ways, it made sure it dragged its neighbours down with it.

I think we're on the same page, nothing of what I said was directed at you, personally. I just get off an anecdotal asides sometimes.

Oh, I didn't think it was. Just very interesting and entertaining to talk history, especially with someone as knowledgeable as you! :p

I find this quite amusing from a German-speaking perspective. It has always been The Middle Ages (Das Mittelalter). The term Dark Ages simply doesn't exist here.

Hmm, that's very interesting; I didn't know that. I suppose that's because for the Germanic peoples it was anything but a Dark Age, it was a period of radical cultural, philosophical, military and political progress that, I assume, must be seen as something of a Golden Age from a German perspective.
 

volksmarschall

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Nah, I don't think everyone should be an academic to love history. I just have a slight anger towards those who read a few wikipedia articles and one or two books and a listen to a bad podcast and think they're experts! lol That's terrifying for us, I didn't spend all that time reading, writing, to have some 16 year old parade about how wonderful the Byzantines and Justinian was. :p I guess the Ivory Tower does that to you... I'm sure you know what I'm talking about since you seem to be more of a serious layman who can probably feel the same way.

Of course, part of my AAR philosophy on this forum is to bring out a lot of scholarship to help a lot of people, whom I know are interested in history at differing levels. Naturally, I doubt someone who doesn't like history wouldn't buy a P'dox game.

I greatly recommend the works by Peter Brown, Wells, and also Collins. Very good works on the subject matter. And since you're already interested in the era, I think you would greatly enjoy those works. They're mandatory reading in most grad programs in Late Antiquity.

It's a pity that I'm too interdisciplinary in my own academic work. I'm a bit all over the place: Late Antiquity/Byzantine studies, History of Philosophy, U.S. and Islamic History, Theology and Hebrew Bible/Old Testament. Economics too since my bachelor's is in the field. Haha. I need to narrow up by the time I send out my PhD applications. Have to choose one eventually.

Speaking of, you might find this AAR of mine of interest, although I haven't written an update now in 2+ years https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...a-history-of-europe-in-late-antiquity.775698/

There's a lot of stuff going on, of course, separating the real history from the in-game is always a treat! :p

Admittedly, another reason for the slowdown in this AAR is that I've been pulled away from Late Antiquity and more toward the History of Philosophy and Political Philosophy since that's what I'm doing at Yale. As such, I just have less motivation to write on this as I did. Although we're still getting close to the finale! :)

And yes, I'm an intellectual and cultural historian and philosopher by training. Although I can say in the historiography of the Continuists and Catastrophists, the latter are not that prominent anymore. Most catastrophists are "Moderate Catastrophists" who largely acknowledge it wasn't really as bad as previously thought, but there's still some unsavory things that have resulted from the decline and fall of Rome. I don't think the Continuists would disagree, but the Catastrophist perspective is generally very narrow they would say.

Historiography is fascinating. You would probably like to immerse yourself in the historiographical trends and war between the two camps. I spent 2 years doing for my historiography paper under review. It's quite illuminating and engaging to see how the actual discipline of history works, especially for people not necessarily in the academy but nevertheless have strong interests in the subject matter.

Although I hinted at to you, I think, in one of the response posts. I actually got sad when John and Sophia are both gone from our lovely AAR picture. They were such important figures for much of the second half of this AAR... I create them, then killed them off in the most byznantine of ways... :(
 
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GulMacet

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Hmm, that's very interesting; I didn't know that. I suppose that's because for the Germanic peoples it was anything but a Dark Age, it was a period of radical cultural, philosophical, military and political progress that, I assume, must be seen as something of a Golden Age from a German perspective.

Not really a Golden Age - I can't speak for all Germans, obviously, but from my observation of the general perspective, the 4th to 7th Century are generally subsumed under the name of Migration Period (Völkerwanderung, although it sounds a bit sillier in German, more like Peoples' Hiking Trip Age), but that is not what people think of when you say Middle Ages. My (and probably for most other people too) first association to Middle Ages is Feudalism, and that comes with mixed feelings. On the one hand, through Catholicism, we acquired a written language and a way to connect with the wider European community, but on the other hand, we also got everything that killed the Roman Empire - the serfdom from the Latifundia system, the rigid class division, the constantly feuding nobility...

So yes, an age of great progress and change, but not all of it in the right direction.
 

NightmareSSV

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Not really a Golden Age - I can't speak for all Germans, obviously, but from my observation of the general perspective, the 4th to 7th Century are generally subsumed under the name of Migration Period (Völkerwanderung, although it sounds a bit sillier in German, more like Peoples' Hiking Trip Age), but that is not what people think of when you say Middle Ages. My (and probably for most other people too) first association to Middle Ages is Feudalism, and that comes with mixed feelings. On the one hand, through Catholicism, we acquired a written language and a way to connect with the wider European community, but on the other hand, we also got everything that killed the Roman Empire - the serfdom from the Latifundia system, the rigid class division, the constantly feuding nobility...

So yes, an age of great progress and change, but not all of it in the right direction.

Makes sense, yeah. Thanks for offering a perspective I've never thought about before! 'Peoples' Hiking Trip Age'? Ah, translation...

@volksmarschall Yeah, Sophia + John were at the centre stage for so long I can't really remember what came before them :S
I really like that blurring of the lines between real/realistic history and the game that you do. And yes, I very much appreciate the sprinkling of serious history into the tale that you do; interesting and informative but in no way breaks the pace and tone of the story. While I'm sure many have passed me straight by, I think I've noticed a few over the course of this AAR ;)
 

volksmarschall

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Yeah, Sophia + John were at the centre stage for so long I can't really remember what came before them :S
I really like that blurring of the lines between real/realistic history and the game that you do. And yes, I very much appreciate the sprinkling of serious history into the tale that you do; interesting and informative but in no way breaks the pace and tone of the story. While I'm sure many have passed me straight by, I think I've noticed a few over the course of this AAR ;)

Well who can blame you? This AAR was started back on Jan 7 2014, so we're approaching a 3 year anniversary with 77 update posts and we're still not done with it. :eek: :p
And God only knows how many more updates it'll take to complete this. Oh man, I really know how Edward Gibbon felt having to write his history over 13 years lol.

Yeah. Everyone has a unique style for AAR. So most people who know me, outside of a few shorter AARs I've done, know what to expect in a volksmarschall AAR. I suppose that's one thing to have a benefit from over the years.

Although I've always wanted to do another EU4 AAR. Another "big one." But I'm not sure I want to burden myself with that again.

But if you really do love Late Antiquity, Brown is much commended. I've read his World of Late Antiquity, The Rise of Western Christendom: Triumph and Diversity, Through the Eye of the Needle, and his biography of St. Augustine (widely praised as the best biography of the eminent thinker available). Many consider him the Fernand Braudel of "our" time (he's still alive, although 81 now). A once in a generation historian who inaugurates an entire paradigm shift and is fondly remembered by not just Late Antiquity historians, but historians of all genres and subject matter, who regard him as possibly the finest historian of the last 40 years. One can only wish to be the next him. :rolleyes:
 
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