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AgisTournas

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You are going to put me out of business! :p You might be able to help me concerning the actual painting, I've read that it might be depicting Achelous, 917, but the source I read that from did not have additional reference material to support the claim, other than it linked the painting with the battle. It could very well just be an imaginative painting of what war was like and therefore is not depicting an actual event. Since you know Rosa, and you knew Cole, I figure you must be a cultured man of the arts like me. I have a huge book from Vienna going over Baroque-Era paintings and painters which I find fascinating and soothing all at the same time!
Salvator Rosa created large-format heroic battle scenes that did not describe specific historical events but expressed formally the fury of combat. These heroic battles won him fame throughout Europe.
link
On another note, your motto "Ιστορικός της ο ανατολής" should be written as "Ιστορικός της Ανατολής" meaning "Historian of the East".
The "ο" could be used either as an article ("Ο ιστορικός της Ανατολής") or just be omitted (the most correct form).
 
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Range

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Ah...a navy...the true backbone of any coastline nation. And, as for the battle fought against Trebizond..in chapter 1...superbly written...as if you had seen the battle taking place...very crisp, and clear.
 

General_Hoth

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It's excellent!
 

volksmarschall

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@ Enewald: The real decline of the Roman navy and sailing presence is a true tragedy. Oh how the mighty have fallen! But in this timeline, we'll see about that. To quote Virgil from the Aeneid (yet another shameless plug for the Aeneid!) "Fortune Favors the brave!" :cool: (and the lucky too)

@ Tanzhang: Very intriguing explanation, I must admit, I've let my linguistic prowess slip since I stopped studying, but I think you might've sparked an interest in all those languages I labored through for so many years thinking they might be important to me, only to realize they were just fluff for my resume! :p

Thank you so much for your kind words. Yes, I sat thinking to myself, "How I am going to write a captivating and engaging chapter over the fact I took out some loans, built a few ships, and hired an admiral. Something that can be said in a paragraph, I had to drag out into 4 pages of word text! :cool: We should expect more trips to the classical world, of which I am well acquainted with and trained in. But as someone writing a fantastic narrative/history yourself, you know (I'm sure) how to take some uneventful gameplay and craft it into an interesting read.

@ GuG: There would be nothing wrong for most writers and most AARs to simply put " built some ships." But I decide to write a history and take it so seriously I sometimes force myself into a corner of having to make sure I don't disappoint all of the readers, and ensure that something incredibly boring game-wise is still interesting to you all. :cool:

@ agistournas: We will be seeing more Rosa as this AAR progresses. So I'm sure you'll be able to spot them when they appear. Paul Rubens is another one of my favorite Baroque artists, "The Fall of Phaeton" is probably my favorite work from him. :)

@ Range: Thank you Range for your kind words. It always makes authorship more worthwhile when you all give encouraging feedback, and make me feel like all the work in writing an engaging prose, sometimes taking an hour or more, well worth it!

@ General Hoth: merci beaucoup mon ami! I've just stumbled upon your (double) AAR, and while I've only skimmed through some of it, I should probably stop by so you know that I'm not an invisible lurker! Protect New France until the end! :cool: Louis-Joseph de Montcalm would be proud of your accomplish at Carillon! ;)

-----

Anyways, a late night in the office!


Your's truly is now officially beginning to re-read all of his books (and a few others as well) for a paper and lecture I have to present in May over the evolving historiography of the Byzantine Empire from a Western (American, but predominately European) perspective! Hey look, I see Gibbon, one of my heroes to whom this AAR is robbing from! :cool: Although I must admit, I'm using my abridged version because I'm not going to re-read all 6 volumes. The Penguin classics version I have is still very good and informative, and concisely summarizes the chapters properly that have been abridged (some chapters are fully included, others abridged). It's very affordable off amazon too! Brownworth's "Lost to the West" is probably the best introductory book on the Byzantines I've read. 300 (about) pages from Constantine to Constantine, covering all the important points over her 1100 year lifespan!

I think I'll have the next chapter up sometime this weekend, covering Diplomacy and Caste in the Late Period Empire! :cool:
 

GreatUberGeek

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Hey! A couple of those books are at my local library! :p MAybe I should check them out...
EDIT: Roger Crowley also wrote a book about the battle for the Mediterranean, which was my first 'real' history book I read. It's worth checking out...
 
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General_Hoth

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Gibbons is one of my favorite book of all time. Good choice. After each time I read it, i always take time to wonder why a man who hate so much the greeks take his life to write a book about them !
 

Seelmeister

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As others have already said (who were quicker to discover this than me!) fantastically written and wonderfully detailed introduction. Looking forward to see how your history departs from reality. The invasion of Trebizond both highlights how far Byzantium has fallen, and what unorthodox strategies will need to be employed if you are to evade the Turk is threat.
 

volksmarschall

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Hey! A couple of those books are at my local library! :p MAybe I should check them out...
EDIT: Roger Crowley also wrote a book about the battle for the Mediterranean, which was my first 'real' history book I read. It's worth checking out...

"Empire of the Seas" by Crowley! ;) I'm sure many of these books are at my local library too, it just so happens I have a more local library about 5 feet from my computer! :p although right now, I need another bookshelf because some of my books are sitting on the floor because I have no more room! :eek:

There are two types of "real history" books in my world - the Academic history book, filled with footnotes and references and citations, (a la Gibbon) and the popular history books that are much easier to read but generally aren't filled with many footnotes and references. So in my field of work, the "best history books" are the ones with hundreds or thousands of footnotes! hahaha! :p Although I love popular history books more because I can sit and read one in a week. It took me almost 2 years to finish all of Gibbon (non-abridged).

Gibbons is one of my favorite book of all time. Good choice. After each time I read it, i always take time to wonder why a man who hate so much the greeks take his life to write a book about them !

Decline and Fall is the pinnacle of Enlightenment era history and historiography, for these reasons, I adore it. Although, as you mention, Gibbon hates everything "Roman" (Greek), and I sometimes wonder why Gibbon took 13 years of his life (if memory serves me correct) to complete his magisterial 6 volume set too!

As others have already said (who were quicker to discover this than me!) fantastically written and wonderfully detailed introduction. Looking forward to see how your history departs from reality. The invasion of Trebizond both highlights how far Byzantium has fallen, and what unorthodox strategies will need to be employed if you are to evade the Turk is threat.

Thank you Seelmesiter! It's nice to know that people will still read through an AAR that is predominately text-driven with few pictures, and the pictures included aren't gameplay (although a few will certainly arrive at timely and appropriate spots). I invaded Trebizond....because I really had no where else to go! :glare: All other "easy" targets had more powerful friends that would really be brutal if I went that route...
 

volksmarschall

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Chapter III

Diplomatic Arts in the Late Empire

One of the most disgusting practices the Romans engaged in, disgusting in the eyes of the European successors to the Western Roman Empire that is, was the quick and often too heavily relied upon incessant diplomacy of the rulers of Constantinople. The Latin conquerors of Constantine’s city remarked, back in the thirteenth century – that the “Greek” reliance upon diplomacy was the reason they had no claim in calling themselves Roman, for the true Romans (of Rome) would had resorted to the power of the sword instead of the power of the pen. In this sense, I suppose the Greek-speaking Romans took the message of Jesus, “He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword,” more to heart than the Latin Christians.

Of course, one might argue that without Roman diplomatic skill, the empire may have fallen before the fifteenth century. Not to mention that the modern understandings of diplomacy come from this noble Roman tradition came into being inside the walls, palaces, and churches of Constantinople as foreign dignitaries, enemies, and friends alike, were brought to the settlement table by the power and mysticism of Constantine’s glistening city on the Bosphorus. While by this point in her history, Rome no longer had much diplomatic sway over the world, let alone her more immediate neighbors – diplomacy was a central part of Roman culture and identity. While the formal fallout with the Latin Church was finalized, which brought some hardship in securing marriages and alliances with the Latin West, who saw the Orthodox East as brethren who had fallen from the true faith in Christ and therefore subject to subjugation to save them from damnation (more likely to plunder what riches that remained), the schism of the Eastern and Western church did not stop “faithful” Catholic monarchs who certainly eyed the potential impending collapse of the Romans with eager hands.

Thus, perhaps, John’s wedding of family members (he had no children despite being married three times) to the royal courts of Serbia and Hungary had different motives for both parties involved. However, Manuel II’s marriage to Helena, a princess of Serbia, plus the fact the Serbians were part of the Eastern Christian faith, meant the two could be natural allies. After all, both “empires” were threatened by an ever expansionist Mohammedan state headed by the Turkic sultan, Mehmed “the Conqueror.” John’s niece – the daughter of his brother Thomas, Helena, was endowed to the Serbian Grand Prince Lazar, and the marriage cemented, for the time being at least, a solid friend north of the Mohammedans. John also married a sister, whose name is lost to history, not being named by any historical sources, to Ladislaus the Posthumous, the eventual King of Hungary – securing a larger and more powerful friend just to the north of their Greek homelands.


A medieval manuscript depicting a royal wedding. Royal marriages were a quick and easy way to secure political and military alliances, of which the Romans were in desperate need of to ward off a Mohammedan invasion that was sure to come.

The art of diplomacy was necessary for the survival of the Roman state, for, if war to break out between the Romans and the Turks, the Romans would be dependent upon foreign aid to even the scales of battle to a much more manageable level. However, neither Serbia nor Hungary was particularly well suited for this. The Serbians had been decimated at Chernomen in the previous century, nearly whipping out the entire Serbian aristocracy, and they were also present at the fiasco at Varna. Likewise, the Hungarians were not a very formidable military power. While modest and having a large pool by which they could quickly create an army, the Hungarians had proved themselves less than capable against the Mohammedans and Nicopolis and Varna in the past 50 years, they were also constantly embroiled in losing conflicts with the expansionist Venetians along the Adriatic Coastline. Despite alliances with two powers that had constantly proved ineffective against the Mohammedan armies, a triune of Hungary, Serbia, and Rome was in the mutual interests of not only each of these states, but also the rest of Europe. Should the Mohammedans continue their advance, perhaps the Romans, Serbians, and Hungarians could slow the tide and give the Europeans the time necessary to prepare against a foe who they likewise had little success against in multiple crusades – each time with the European coalitions marching off confident of victory only to be utterly defeated by the Turks each and every time.

Elsewhere, the Romans could count upon the Duchy of Athens to join in the military affairs of the Roman emperors. Although the ruling family was from Italy, and the official state church was Roman Catholicism, both the Duchy, the empire centered in Constantinople, and the Despotate of Morea, which said it was part of the empire but John’s brother Constantine wielded a large degree of autonomy, it was in the best interests of the small duchy to remain in the good graces of the Romans just as much as it might had been to submit themselves under Mohammedan rule. Another natural reason for the Athenians positive reception of imperial gravitas was the fact that most of the subjects of the Athenian state were Greek, were part of the Greek Church, and saw themselves as separated brothers of the Roman state. So political moves away from the decaying Roman empire would had created a swirl of angry commoners that would had loved nothing more than displace their Latin overlords if given a chance.

John VIII also set out on a path of appeasement to another great Mohammedan power based in Egypt, and the Rus Tsardom of Moscovy – which had become a religious rival to the Romans for the Moscovite domains now had the largest population of Eastern Christians, and the constant attempts of the Palaiologoi emperors earned the scorn of the Patriarchy of Moscovy who saw any attempt to surrender Eastern independence to the Latins as heresy. Even by the end of the fourteenth century, the Christian leadership in Russia had been claiming itself to be the new center of authority for the Eastern world, a claim that the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Antioch (who were based in Damascus), Alexandria, and Jerusalem all disputed. Both served the interests of the empire, a friend in the Mohammedan Mamluks seemed natural – the Mamluks were south of the Mohammedan Turks, the two were rivals of the Sunni faith, and the two seemed like they would eventually come at loggerheads to settle Islamic conflicts in the Holy Lands. Likewise, the Rus people had a long attachment to the Romans. The Romans had converted the Rus people to Christianity, and they had given them their alphabet and modern systems of education and law. The Rus people even liked to think of themselves as Romans, or at the very least, the favored child of Rome! And like the Romans, who were fighting against the dynastic and hegemonic threats of a Mohammedan kingdom, so too were the Rus long fighters against Islamic domination over their lands; they both shared a similar religious and political culture, and a common enemy of the faith.


A manuscript detailing diplomacy within the Byzantine palaces. The modern art of diplomacy and negotiations were born from this timely and noble Roman tradition, although the more warlike Europeans thought diplomacy was for the weak.
If it is true that civilized societies resort to diplomacy before the use of force, than despite their small imperial holdings, which centered around Constantinople, Trebizond, and the Peloponnese, the Romans were still one of the most civilized societies in the world despite their poor predicament. The diplomatic endeavors of John VIII earned modest admiration throughout Europe. Indeed, some suggested that the rise of the Mohammedans and the decline of the Romans had been exaggerated, and the evidence for this, although the evidence itself was folly, the diplomatic prowess of the Romans operating out a single city – Constantinople still had much staying power on the world’s diplomatic stage, even if that admirable power was regionally located and did not extend into the Western diplomatic sphere.

Furthermore, the Romans, in comparison to the more “civilized” Europeans, were ahead of the curve when it came to diplomacy. While many European nations only engaged in the tradition of diplomatic marriages, often in bids to eventual have claims to their rival’s throne, the Romans, ever the shrewd diplomats, often formed alliances for mutual benefits and coalitions. It was obvious that the Kingdom of Serbia and the Empire of Rome were in no position to challenge the Mohammedans alone, but together, with the prospect of half of the Mohammedan army stationed in Asia Minor for border conflicts against the Mamluks, the two nations could stand a fighting chance before the Turkish armies from the south circled north of the Black Sea and swept south like a horde intent on destruction.

As it was clear that the Roman army was not in a state to achieve victory, even in defense of the empire, let alone in an offensive bid to reclaim their historic homelands, diplomacy was the only avenue for the survival of the empire. It was not a matter of if the Mohammedans would attack Constantinople and seek the final destruction of the Roman Empire, it was a matter of when. Although a small revival on the shores of the Black Sea was bidding, the Romans, knowing that the real jewel of the empire lay in Constantinople, would leave the Despotate of Trebizond to its fate when a war would break out. And when a war with the Turks would bring a thundering sword to pierce the heart of the East, John VIII wisely understood that it was better to be prepared than not, and it was better to put his trust of survival into the hands of former rivals – for God only knew the Romans wouldn’t be able to defend Constantinople alone.


An etching of the city of Constantinople, the only city (province) that really mattered to the Roman Empire in 1447 AD. The city was given priority defense over all other imperial territories for obvious reasons.

 
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GreatUberGeek

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Very nice explanation of your diplomatic dealings. :) Great description of Moscovy and the Mamelukes-the Egyptian Mohammedans! :p Interesting that you chose to garrison Constantinople the most, though a very strategic one-but methinks the Turks will attack there first. My personal favorite part of this update is your dissection of the Duchy of Athens and the Despotate of Morea.
 

Deus Eversor

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tfw anyone of us moved back in time to those times would become Alexander The Great, or at least Iulius Caesar.
tfw when we could explain basic for us things, like logistics and management to the folk to whom it was still beyond imagination.
tfw games using logistic mechanics do just that - allowing for armies to march around the globe to reach their target.
:)

well, fighting with a pen can just as well end with a penalizing friend :D
 

Range

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Your explanation of the Roman and the world's use of diplomatic strategies was perfect, and quite clear. The post shows how the old would eventually would see the light as you wrote, I quote "shrewd diplomats, often formed alliances for mutual benefits and coalitions." So, as I bite my tongue, maybe the best way for you to survive (for a time)...would be to strike a deal with the devil (the Turks). While that's taking place, find friends and influence people. You can't stop the Turks from trying to kick down your door, but maybe in time relief could reach you...delay for now...what's the Roman's feelings on expanding beyond the reach of the Turks? Of course, you would then become embroiled in Western European politics. I would be first to admit, I'm learning the Roman's logic from you.
 
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General_Hoth

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That's what happened in real world in fact ;)
 

LordTempest

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I hate to hold myself up to widespread ridicule by giving the impression that I'm some kind of Cathar or some other flavour of heretic, but I've never actually read Gibbon myself! I've wanted to ever since I read Brendon's history of the British Empire some four years ago, but I've always found the prospect too daunting to undertake, and although there are abridged versions out there, can one truly claim to have read Gibbon if they've only read an abridged version? It's a paradox I tell you. :)

Not sure how much help Serbia will be in terms of men or materiel, but I suppose at this point Rome has to make do with whatever allies it can muster, even if they happen to be... *gasp* Mameluke.
 

General_Hoth

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Reading Gibbons is really like strating an adventure. Is english your native language? It's not mine and I managed to have a wonderful time reading the complete version of Gibbons in english. You have no excuse ;)
 

volksmarschall

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Very nice explanation of your diplomatic dealings. :) Great description of Moscovy and the Mamelukes-the Egyptian Mohammedans! :p Interesting that you chose to garrison Constantinople the most, though a very strategic one-but methinks the Turks will attack there first. My personal favorite part of this update is your dissection of the Duchy of Athens and the Despotate of Morea.

In hindsight, it may not have been the best idea to place all of my troops in Constantinople, just as the Turks have a large (and more advanced) army in Edirne...

Ah, Athens! Maid of Athens, ere we part, Give, oh, give back my heart! Or, since that has left my breast, Keep it now, and take the rest! Hear my vow before I go!

Ah, the new problem with Turks deciding to march around Black Sea in order to get to Europe. :p
Very realistic! :eek:

I had to include this because in an earlier Byzantine game, I got a nasty surprise when I saw Crimean and Turkish units coming down from the north! :eek:

tfw anyone of us moved back in time to those times would become Alexander The Great, or at least Iulius Caesar.
tfw when we could explain basic for us things, like logistics and management to the folk to whom it was still beyond imagination.
tfw games using logistic mechanics do just that - allowing for armies to march around the globe to reach their target.
:)

well, fighting with a pen can just as well end with a penalizing friend :D

I need a new Alexander if I hope to survive! :cool: And to quote Dr. Brody in Indiana Jones, "You see Henry the pen, the pen is mightier than the sword!" Well, the Turks will put that to the ultimate test very soon...

Your explanation of the Roman and the world's use of diplomatic strategies was perfect, and quite clear. The post shows how the old would eventually would see the light as you wrote, I quote "shrewd diplomats, often formed alliances for mutual benefits and coalitions." So, as I bite my tongue, maybe the best way for you to survive (for a time)...would be to strike a deal with the devil (the Turks). While that's taking place, find friends and influence people. You can't stop the Turks from trying to kick down your door, but maybe in time relief could reach you...delay for now...what's the Roman's feelings on expanding beyond the reach of the Turks? Of course, you would then become embroiled in Western European politics. I would be first to admit, I'm learning the Roman's logic from you.

Thank you again my friend for such kind words. Of course, as you might know, one of the problems I'm running into when writing this AAR is trying to keep the prose and style in describing the Romans as historically accurate from OTL as possible, even in this timeline. I must admit, I am also playing the game based on all of my readings of the Byzantines. Their tactics, strategy, diplomatic dealings etc., sometimes I have to force myself through writing - and I often go back and re-edit before posting! So I'm glad to know it is well worth the extra effort! :)

That's what happened in real world in fact ;)

But hopefully I will keep the Romans alive, for as long as possible, unlike what happened in our history! ;)

Excellent read so far. I really enjoy this...
Thank you for taking the time to create such a wonderful historical journey.

Thank you my friend! :) Even if it is an AAR, I do think one should, and could, make it as real to our history as possible! In so many ways, I am not just writing an AAR, but I am trying to paint not only a historical picture of what Byzantine life was like, but what it could have been like if they had not fallen in 1453! So I'm glad to have the support of a true Hellene such as yourself, because I only have a few primary works - Anna Komnenos, The Alexiad! Everything else is secondary sources, which is sometimes hard to get away from the biases of the authors. Which I readily and always admit - it is impossible to write objective history. As a historian myself, anyone who thinks otherwise is deceiving themselves.

I hate to hold myself up to widespread ridicule by giving the impression that I'm some kind of Cathar or some other flavour of heretic, but I've never actually read Gibbon myself! I've wanted to ever since I read Brendon's history of the British Empire some four years ago, but I've always found the prospect too daunting to undertake, and although there are abridged versions out there, can one truly claim to have read Gibbon if they've only read an abridged version? It's a paradox I tell you. :)

Not sure how much help Serbia will be in terms of men or materiel, but I suppose at this point Rome has to make do with whatever allies it can muster, even if they happen to be... *gasp* Mameluke.

Easy with the Catharism jokes! :p Well, I would say, if you read the Penguin classics abridged version I have, or this one, I think you would come away with the best possible introduction to Gibbon in print today! You will still get Gibbon's prose and his general argument. However, if you want to read all 6 volumes, more power to you! But my 6 volume set is over 5000 pages, so I don't have the time (by May) to re-read all of that in union with about 10-12 other histories of the Byzantines for my work. That said, the abridged version tries to stay true to him. And you're right, it is a daunting task - it took me over a year to read all of Gibbon in full! :confused:

Reading Gibbons is really like strating an adventure. Is english your native language? It's not mine and I managed to have a wonderful time reading the complete version of Gibbons in english. You have no excuse ;)

General Hoth, you are absolutely right. Gibbon is an adventure - which is why he is still so relevant and read (and re-read) to this very day! Everyone who is a Roman/Byzantine fan, not a fan in the sense that they read through wikipedia, but take a serious interest in Byzantine or Roman studies, need to read Gibbon! He is the first historian of Rome after all, and still the most influential (for better and worse). Although I might add the works of men like Polybius, Tacitus, Livy and Seutonius have great works about Rome too, but they are Roman after all!



To All: Update sometime later this week, probably on Thursday or Friday. Btw, has anyone read Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas by Hunter Thompson? I couldn't believe Paradox included an easter egg referencing his work in their game! :cool: (They also include "The Shining" to go with it!) Sorry, I love cultural references, especially in games!
 
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GreatUberGeek

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What was the easter egg? :)
 

volksmarschall

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What was the easter egg? :)

"Fear and loathing in [Capital city]" (All work and no play makes [ruler's name] a dull boy - made famous in "The Shining"). Option to kill heir. Afterward, a later event fires "The Discovery" (if you killed your heir) in which one of the options says "Here [ruler's name]" (again references Jack Nicholson's portrayal in the movie).