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Enewald

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What about the Arabian old pagan religion, especially something about the moon as a icon of worship?

Go complain on the Ck2 forums that half of the Islamic iconography is historically inaccurate. :D
 

volksmarschall

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What about the Arabian old pagan religion, especially something about the moon as a icon of worship?

Go complain on the Ck2 forums that half of the Islamic iconography is historically inaccurate. :D

There is no historical evidence that the pre-Islamic Arabs ever used the moon as a symbol of icon reverence, those who claim that are generally not cited in the field of iconographic study. Nor am I familiar with any serious work published suggesting that (and I've just spent the last 2 months gathering much of the published work in the field for my paper). Some suggest that the symbol was introduced to Islam after the conquest of Persia, but again, there is very little reputable work to suggest this. Most of the work that is reliable is that the crescent moon is inherited by Islam after the conquest of Constantinople. Not to mention the wikipedia articles on the subject are woefully inaccurate, not just without proper citations (part of my continued begrudging attitude against all the errors of wikipedia!) :p

The Crescent Moon and star feature prominently in Orthodox Christian iconography from the middle 3rd Century-14th Century. In fact, the usage of the cross as a Christian form of iconography is rather recent, the moon and star was the most commonly used icon depicting Christ, the Saints, Mary, Joseph, and other prominents. Likely the case of Christians incorporating the pagan custom of icongraphy into their practice as a was common in the ancient world. There are no icons that have ever been discovered in the Islamic world that use the moon and star from the middle 7th century-14th century, until after the conquest of Constantinople.

And yes, I usually don't through a cow about the misuse of icons and symbols in games. But then again, I don't spend much time playing CK2 since I'm woefully terrible at that game compared to all the other Paradox titles I own (I just don't get it, and don't particularly care to learn the finer details of the game). But with a seemingly nice size of people following this AAR, who may or may not have an interests in the Byzantines (let alone my professional work), I thought I'd share some of the more 'unknown' facts about the Byzantines and how I hold my nose whenever I see them in Paradox and other videogames who simply get them wrong.

<<< Interesting Facts about Constantinople (on previous page).
 
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Dr.Livingstone

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So what flag did the Ottoman Turks use before 1453?
 

Idhrendur

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Haha, there's more to life, history, and culture than Rome (coming from someone who writes on the Romans)! History isn't Roman-centric, nor is 'classical civilization!'
I agree! It's just a matter of where the focus is in the AAR (or other writing).

I only wish I had access to AI archives so I could spend a lot of time writing about what's going on with the Ottoman Empire (since I had formal training in Islamic history, a special preference of mine), and be able to re-create the tour of the Mediterranean and European world (even Far East Asian -- the Mongols) that Edward Gibbon provides in his own work. Alas, I'm stuck with only a few visible tidbits (like the Mamluks and Turks fighting it out in Syria) to base any possible work on them upon.
Well, the data is more or less in there in the save. It's just a lot of data to crunch. Then again, you're a historian, so it's probably less tedious than you're usual research. At least there's a consistent format!

Quite a pity really, I otherwise wouldn't bore you all with the history and tolerance of the Ottoman society, in part, because it would also ruin the narrative form of attempting to have the feel and style of an early twentieth century piece. Looking back, I probably should've been using that era's grammar too! :rofl:
I do love early twentieth century grammar and usage.
 

Idhrendur

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Interesting Facts About Constantinople as told by a historian:​
The weird things people often don't know about history! ;) Most accurately, the Byzantine emblem should be shown with the crescent moon which the empire used from about the fifth century until it's final collapse in 1453. At this point, the image transferred to the Ottomans (the Muslims). Also, the use of the double-headed eagle caused other European rivals who liked to claim inheritance of the Roman Empire, in principle, the Habsburgs and the Grand Duchy of Moscow and later Russia, also used the image to claim their 'rightful' status as the new Rome or Third Rome. There should be an event that changes the national iconography of the Ottomans only after the Byzantine Empire is destroyed!

Sadly, I don't think that'd be 'easy' in the current game engines.

Scare quotes because it'd really just involve a tag change, but that's yet another tag, which adds to the processing, etc.
 

volksmarschall

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So what flag did the Ottoman Turks use before 1453?

The famous red banner without the crescent moon or star, which was taken from the Byzantines before hand anyway:



I agree! It's just a matter of where the focus is in the AAR (or other writing)...Well, the data is more or less in there in the save. It's just a lot of data to crunch. Then again, you're a historian, so it's probably less tedious than you're usual research. At least there's a consistent format!

Yeah, I like the province history which is nice, but I don't have access to the wars, men killed, troop numbers (at least I don't know how to access it if its available) unless I have an alliance with someone or have some units in the region and watch a fight between x-amount of units from both armies then calculate the losses after they withdraw! The real problem with research is gathering the material (can take a very very long time, like 1.5 years... :glare: and then there's always the part of getting to read all that material, and then find out that a 300 page book maybe has two relevant areas for you to cite! :p)

Sadly, I don't think that'd be 'easy' in the current game engines.

Scare quotes because it'd really just involve a tag change, but that's yet another tag, which adds to the processing, etc.

I'm not really suggesting the changes, I was sort of light-heartily playing on the fact that video games, even games from Paradox which I do think they do a pretty decent job in historicity (much better than CA and the Total War series anyway which is hardly historically accurate despite many on the Total War forum saying that CA makes their games "based on historical fact") that a paper could probably be written on the mistakes made in games that profess some degree of historical authenticity. The moon and star don't appear in any Islamic iconography until the middle of the fifteenth century, and the actual symbol of the Byzantine Empire besides the many standards of religious iconography (like Christ the Conqueror) or the Tetragrammatic Cross was actually a famous red banner with a yellow half crescent moon (or white) in the middle of it that another usurping power started to use after 1453! :p


This was the official emblem of the Byzantine Empire and the standards of the city of Constantinople before it was captured by the Turks, who conveniently just decided to use it after they took the city to legitimize their claim as being the New Roman Empire and Mehmet stylizing himself "Caesar of Rome." Of course, again the deficiencies of wikipedia are apparent, you won't find this image listed on the page on Byzantine flags and insignia's as one of the empire's main symbols (which is odd since it was the official symbol of the empire and the flag of the city). At least the article says that the double-headed eagle comes from the Hittite tradition and isn't Roman or Greek in origin...

It might be odd for 'fanboys' to click on the Byzantine Empire and see a red shield and a moon in it and think it's the Ottoman Empire! :rofl:

But, on an aside, they already include tag and shield changes anyway. When you form the Netherlands with a Dutch minor for instance, you get the Dutch tags! :cool:
 
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Idhrendur

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Yeah, I like the province history which is nice, but I don't have access to the wars, men killed, troop numbers (at least I don't know how to access it if its available) unless I have an alliance with someone or have some units in the region and watch a fight between x-amount of units from both armies then calculate the losses after they withdraw! The real problem with research is gathering the material (can take a very very long time, like 1.5 years... :glare: and then there's always the part of getting to read all that material, and then find out that a 300 page book maybe has two relevant areas for you to cite! :p)

Not that I really want to add to your work (I was just teasing before), but the information you mention is in fact in the save. If you search for active_war and previous_war you'll get a list of wars, with dates of who joined when, battles (including losses), who left when, and the peace terms. Though beyond the occasional look, it's probably not too helpful without a tool making it easy to pull out data. Which wouldn't be hard to write, given programmer-time to spare.


I'm not really suggesting the changes, I was sort of light-heartily playing on the fact that video games, even games from Paradox which I do think they do a pretty decent job in historicity (much better than CA and the Total War series anyway which is hardly historically accurate despite many on the Total War forum saying that CA makes their games "based on historical fact") that a paper could probably be written on the mistakes made in games that profess some degree of historical authenticity. The moon and star don't appear in any Islamic iconography until the middle of the fifteenth century, and the actual symbol of the Byzantine Empire besides the many standards of religious iconography (like Christ the Conqueror) or the Tetragrammatic Cross was actually a famous red banner with a yellow half crescent moon (or white) in the middle of it that another usurping power started to use after 1453! :p


This was the official emblem of the Byzantine Empire and the standards of the city of Constantinople before it was captured by the Turks, who conveniently just decided to use it after they took the city to legitimize their claim as being the New Roman Empire and Mehmet stylizing himself "Caesar of Rome." Of course, again the deficiencies of wikipedia are apparent, you won't find this image listed on the page on Byzantine flags and insignia's as one of the empire's main symbols (which is odd since it was the official symbol of the empire and the flag of the city). At least the article says that the double-headed eagle comes from the Hittite tradition and isn't Roman or Greek in origin...

It might be odd for 'fanboys' to click on the Byzantine Empire and see a red shield and a moon in it and think it's the Ottoman Empire! :rofl:

But, on an aside, they already include tag and shield changes anyway. When you form the Netherlands with a Dutch minor for instance, you get the Dutch tags! :cool:
Indeed! I was attempting to allude to that. It's just that it's mildly more work to put in a new tag and everything associated with it than if they had a mechanic to allow a single tag to have multiple flags depending on context (as in Victoria 2). France/Revolutionary France is perhaps an even more apt example of the phenomenon.
 

Enewald

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Well, you ought to force Paradox to alter its inaccurate portrayal of Muslim iconography for CK. :cool:

It is your destiny, harbinger of ancient knowledge! ;)
Educate the heathens! :p
 

volksmarschall

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Not that I really want to add to your work (I was just teasing before), but the information you mention is in fact in the save. If you search for active_war and previous_war you'll get a list of wars, with dates of who joined when, battles (including losses), who left when, and the peace terms. Though beyond the occasional look, it's probably not too helpful without a tool making it easy to pull out data. Which wouldn't be hard to write, given programmer-time to spare.

Hmmm. I might have to look into that, although, based on how far we are in the game and AAR, and based on the current dimensions of how the game developed (completely different, naturally, than the fall of Rome as it is retold by Gibbon when he spends a lot of time talking about the Barbarians as they incurred into Roman lands (I have no Barbarian incursions to deal with), the arrival of the Mongols (no Mongols, or Timurid resurgence), I'll likely not be spending the time to write chapters only about the Ottomans who are right along the border! But, for future reference, I think I'll be looking into that! :D

Well, you ought to force Paradox to alter its inaccurate portrayal of Muslim iconography for CK. :cool:

It is your destiny, harbinger of ancient knowledge! ;)
Educate the heathens! :p

Well, some of the Muslim iconography is still inaccurate for EU4, which I spend more time playing! :p Paradox needs to make a game set in Late Antiquity! :cool:

I've always found it funny that the double-headed eagle (a symbol that was really only associated with families and not the empire proper) and the tetragramattic cross (a symbol that was, in fact, associated with the empire but never an official symbol of the city) are used over the real symbols the empire used and lined the walls of Constantinople. Wouldn't it be odd, with our current knowledge of images and symbols, to go back to the siege in 1453, and see a bunch of red banners and crescent moons and think the Turks just captured the city, when, in fact, those are the imperial banners of the empire? :p

Not to mention, at least among anti-Catholic and anti-Orthodox Protestants, that the most commonly used symbols in Christian iconography through the middle ages wasn't the cross, but the moon, star, and sun...they'd think it is further evidence of the two original Christian church's apostasy! :rofl:
 

volksmarschall

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The Battle of Adrianople​

Heading into the Roman-Turkish War of 1499-1503, Emperor John was filled with his characteristic youthful vigor that had created in his own psyche, perhaps, the truest belief that he was the greatest soul treading the earth. As Thomas Carlyle noted of John, “The emperor is the beginning of a great line of great man-kings who stepped onto history at the turn of the sixteenth century.” While this is probably too much unfettered praise for a man, whose proper demense did not extend much beyond the walls of Constantinople despite the recent gains of the past Roman emperors in delaying the final collapse of the Roman Empire – the emperor himself was not devoid of personal courage, visionary excellence, and a penchant for war that rivalled the line of old Caesars going back to Julius and Augustus, or even being filled with a militaristic spirit of Marc Antony or Flavius Aetius.

The constant storm from the east – ever since the Arab invasion of Roman Palestine in the seventh century, had been a constant thorn and serious threat to the integrity of the empire for now, nearly a millennium. At present, the Mohammedans were winning the war of attrition – and had been the de facto leaders and victors in the constant struggle for Greece and Asia Minor ever since the Battle of Manzikert. Now, however, recent gains against the Mohammedan Turks in Greece had afforded the Romans a temporary calm and sense of patriotic pride and virtue as I outlined with the new spirit of the Roman army. While their foes were numerically stronger, superior, and had a better political system – the Romans were not devoid of courage and spirit, and with the inclusion of their allies in Europe – principally Hungary and Austria to come to the aid of John, there was a real expectation that the Turks, who had failed to take into consideration the fears of Vienna, could be driven out of Europe with their rash decision to re-invade Greece in the aftermath of their failed invasion of Syria.

The Roman army that accompanied John into the field was an army both modern and backward. While the Roman army possessed a certain quantity of cannons and modern firearms, the majority of the soldiers were still armed with swords and pole-arms, principally, spears and pikes. The Roman military formations were largely constructed around the ideals of Renaissance warfare in Italy – having learned from their Italian mercenary captains of the new waves of European warfare. As an empire and military force that situated itself on the crossroads of east and west, the former splendor and glory of the Roman military in the east was the fact it had been a quality composite of western and eastern military tactics and ideals. Now, however, it was largely Westernizing itself with European mercenaries, mostly from the Iberia and Italy, and with few horses and horsemen – thus depriving the empire of its famous mobile eastern composite of the army, was not well suited to battle the Mohammedan troops in Asia Minor – although the fields of Greece still benefitted a Western-esque army.

The Roman army that marched with John, therefore, was in the awkward disposition of having to be able to fight a war both in Greece and Asia Minor while principally only being capable of fighting a war in Greece. It is for this reason, or the numerical superiority of the Turkic armies in Asia Minor – standing around 25,000 professionals, caused John to march on Adrianople (Edirne), where the Mohammedan Army, about 8,000 strong, was stationed. The Imperial Army under John was 12,000 strong, with an additional 4,000 soldiers from the Great Domestic of the Morea marching north to invade Mohammedan Macedonia. The Roman army marched well, and seemed high in morale and expected to be victorious in battle.


The Roman Army marching through Thrace on their way to war with the Turks. The newly reformed army would be put to the test at the Battle of Adrianople.

One of John’s aids, watching the 16 year old emperor at the head of “this magnificent army” wrote in a letter before the battle:

The young emperor was at the head of this magnificent army, while being far smaller in size to the armies of old Rome, was still filled with the professional spirit and ethic of war that carried Scipio’s men into Africa and Caesar’s men into Gaul and across the Rhine. There was a hope among the officers, and the minor rank of the nobility, that the Mohammedans could be driven from Greece for good. John had informed us that the Latins were coming to our aid at long last – putting aside their pompous arrogance and attitudes to the true Church of Christ, coming to their senses that the Mohammedans were as much a threat to them as to us. As this great army marched, there was an expectation that the war would be won in the first battle between us.

This hopeful and naïve optimism would prove wrong –the war would certainly not end in the first engagement, and although the Latins: the Austrians and Hungarians had pledged their armies in the fight; it was unlikely that they would play any significant importance in the first year of the war – which they didn’t. At Adrianople, John rejected the offers from Manuel Phokas to take direct control away from the young emperor – deciding instead, like emperors of old, it was proper from the Caesar of Rome to lead the Roman armies even if he was young, inexperienced, and in doing so threatened his own life as he was sure to be targeted by the enemy.

The plains of Adrianople had long served as a battleground of the Roman army. It was the site of the terrible defeat at the hand of the Goths where the emperor Valens had been killed in the fourth century. It was also the site, of recent, where the Romans reversed their fortunes in the Macedonian War against the Turks. Naturally, the stain of Adrianople (378 A.D.) had not been cleansed from Roman memory, but there was a thoughtful belief that another victory – a decisive victory – would erase the embarrassment of Valens on these very fields.

John addressed the troops and filled them with inspiration. He had the archbishop bless the troops before the battle. Despite the “magnificent” army that marched out with him – the army was inexperienced and raw. Many of the experienced soldiers had either been killed in the civil war that overthrow Theodoras or were too old to fight. Even the emperor’s new Imperial Guard was largely composed of inexperienced men who had never fought in a battle before. For these reasons, it seems that the decision of Phokas to want to take control of the inexperienced army from the inexperienced emperor makes sense.

The field was manned by at least 20,000 men, who crammed into the fields and a Mohammedan cannon sounded the beginning of the battle. The Romans counted their numbers at 12,000 while the Mohammedan armies totaled around 8,000 or so foot-soldiers and horsemen. The two sides rode forth to meet each other – Emperor John at the center of the advancing column with the new Guard surrounding him for protection. As the battle raged all around, he ordered his Guard into battle around midday. As the emperor watched his pride march off to their glorious deaths, he noted, “the guard shouted praise as they passed me, it was a spectacle that would have warmed the loftiest of souls.”

The Guard performed well enough, suffering about 300 losses and they managed to break the Turkish center. The Mohammedan cavalry then slammed into the gaps, but were repulsed by concentrated Roman cannon fire and a counter-attack led by Manuel Phokas. However, the Battle of Adrianople was not the great victory that the Romans were expecting or had hoped for. By the end of the day, the Mohammedans had withdrawn in good order, and although a victory as the Romans controlled the field – they lost over 3,600 men compared to around 2,100 for the Turks. Although the great disparity in casualties, John considered the battle “a great victory” and proof of his divine favor from God himself who he credited with granting him this victory, the Romans would press further into Turkish Greece, and with the Armies of the Morea moving north as well, John had a foolish optimism that “another great victory, and the war will be won.” As we will see, another “great victory” would not end the war, and even though the momentum favored the Romans – the war would protract itself for a full four years before being brought to a close. In addition, the Roman army did not crack or break, but stood and fight despite suffering heavy losses and eventually drove the Turks from the field in victory.


A fanciful painting of the Roman victory at the plains of Adrianople. Despite heavy losses, the Romans prevailed.

Indeed, it is perhaps right that the Romans were blessed with a young and energetic emperor at this time, rather than a lethargic or otherwise incompetent ruler presiding during a time when Rome was once more facing a hard trial against the constant pressures of the Turks and other Mohammedans. While it may be said he earned his epithet, “the Great”, during his performance in the war – he was not, however, comparatively equivalent with the other great rulers of history. Rome, graced with an otherwise lackluster line of caesars after the death of Michael VIII, was therefore granted one last great emperor – in a sense of the ability to guide and manage the decline of the empire rather than precipitate over its most grandiose and long decline. This ability is evidenced by his victory at Adrianople, thereby, like John VIII, shielding and masking the real holes and trails of the monarchy and the army with a victory that blinded even him – the great reformer as others would remember him as, from seeing the extreme holes in the ancient yet ‘modern’ Roman body politic and superstructural mediums – most prevalent and important being the Roman army that was still the shield of Christendom against the Turkish Mohammedan horde.


 
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General_Hoth

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Ah finally war is begining anew. I can't help but to feel sad when reading that all this is hopeless
 

Idhrendur

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The foreshadowing is a harbinger of sadness. But I'd like to hope that the fall of Roman Civilization is also the rise of something yet better.
 

Dr.Livingstone

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And so begins the prologue to the prologue to the final decline. Poor Romans, they have no idea that the gains they made were pointless in the long run.
 

volksmarschall

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Ah finally war is begining anew. I can't help but to feel sad when reading that all this is hopeless

Blessed by the Lord he is, the Blessed by the Lord. ;)

The foreshadowing is a harbinger of sadness. But I'd like to hope that the fall of Roman Civilization is also the rise of something yet better.

And so begins the prologue to the prologue to the final decline. Poor Romans, they have no idea that the gains they made were pointless in the long run.

The great tragedy of history no? Of course, none of you know exactly how, when, or by whom, or what, I will be writing about the fall! The anticipation must be palpable, especially since, the rest of the second volume is still to be written, far removed from the prospective decline and fall that awaits the end of the AAR! :p

And to what arises in the aftermath of it all, either the most tolerant and liberal society in prior to the Enlightenment (the Ottoman Empire), a Western claimant that is still marred by the inequities of its Roman inheritance (the West), or a possible nation in the east who bills itself as the Third Rome and has an otherwise over important view of itself in the world and in world history! :rofl:

But it's certainly not all for loss. The Greek Renaissance, which I still have to write, gives birth to the still more famous Italian and Western Renaissance (rather than the fall of Constantinople in 1453 spurring the Renaissance as per OTL, this pseudo Roman revival will relight the flame of the West toward the road of humanism and Enlightenment at long last. Plus, the Orthodox Church (faith, as represented in the game) gets to stay around longer rather than be 'converted' to Sunni Islam if all these territories remained under Ottoman control (even though IRL, the Ottomans didn't pursue a forced conversion policy since a large segment, even a majority of its population at certain times in its history, were not among the Islamic faith but Jews and various Christians).
 

GulMacet

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The story (alternate history? I'm unsure as to the proper terminology, just calling it 'story' seems to disregard the efforts in authenticity and historicity) is called 'The Decline and Fall of Roman Civilization', not Empire. I still hope the Empire can cling on somewhat, becoming an analogue to the Ottoman empire - military successes, but while Western Europe advances, they stagnate technologically. By the 17-18th century, the Roman Empire (now encompassing Asia Minor and maybe the Balkans) has a large population but many religious and ethnic minorities, and it seems like it will soon crumble under its own weight. But - a Napoleon analogue appears, ridding the Empire of its Roman pretensions, embracing Greekness and rule of law and generally modernizing! And that's the Fall of Roman Civilization, it being replaced by the modern Nation-State.

At least, that's my fantasy. :D
 

Metternich30

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Napoleon embracing the modern nation state! Nah, that's definitely not Napoleon. After all, he did style himself as the Emperor of the French (unlike, say, the Austrian Emperor, who at least had the decency to delineate a specific territory to view as his birthright :p) and engaged in some rather... grand scale nepotism throughout territories that he subjugated. Tbf, it could be argued that Napoleon's actions helped to spur nationalism and the idea of the nation-state (perhaps most spectacularly in what would become Germany), but him promoting it himself? No. I can imagine such a figure in a putative timeline like that being comparable to Sultan Mahmud II (though he hardly believed in the nation-state himself). But yes, that is a good fantasy :D
 

GulMacet

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Well, I meant Napoleon-like in the sense of 'seizes control of his nation and goes on a mad rampage across Europe, thus laying the foundations for its current political entities and boundaries' rather than someone who follows the policies and ideas of Boney himself.
 

volksmarschall

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The story (alternate history? I'm unsure as to the proper terminology, just calling it 'story' seems to disregard the efforts in authenticity and historicity) is called 'The Decline and Fall of Roman Civilization', not Empire. I still hope the Empire can cling on somewhat, becoming an analogue to the Ottoman empire - military successes, but while Western Europe advances, they stagnate technologically. By the 17-18th century, the Roman Empire (now encompassing Asia Minor and maybe the Balkans) has a large population but many religious and ethnic minorities, and it seems like it will soon crumble under its own weight. But - a Napoleon analogue appears, ridding the Empire of its Roman pretensions, embracing Greekness and rule of law and generally modernizing! And that's the Fall of Roman Civilization, it being replaced by the modern Nation-State.

At least, that's my fantasy. :D

Napoleon embracing the modern nation state! Nah, that's definitely not Napoleon. After all, he did style himself as the Emperor of the French (unlike, say, the Austrian Emperor, who at least had the decency to delineate a specific territory to view as his birthright :p) and engaged in some rather... grand scale nepotism throughout territories that he subjugated. Tbf, it could be argued that Napoleon's actions helped to spur nationalism and the idea of the nation-state (perhaps most spectacularly in what would become Germany), but him promoting it himself? No. I can imagine such a figure in a putative timeline like that being comparable to Sultan Mahmud II (though he hardly believed in the nation-state himself). But yes, that is a good fantasy :D

Well, I meant Napoleon-like in the sense of 'seizes control of his nation and goes on a mad rampage across Europe, thus laying the foundations for its current political entities and boundaries' rather than someone who follows the policies and ideas of Boney himself.

Ah, fair do's ;)

Napoleon was the embodiment of Enlightenment philosophy and his decision to crown himself emperor of the French was perfectly in line with Enlightenment ideas of the nation state and Enlightened Liberalism. Rousseau and Locke in their philosophical writings state that the monarchy is the only legitimate form of government by which the 'philosopher king' would be able to bring refuge and respite to the masses. The French Republic is actually the antithesis of what the Enlightened philosophes had in mind when it came to political governance, which is partially the reason why the monarchies of Europe went to war. It is important to also remember that the philosophes' patronage was coming from the nobility, so, they naturally had nice to things to say. But many subscribed to Thomas Hobbes's view of man -- that the masses would become uncontrollable and descend into chaos and 'the tyranny of the majority.' I actually study Enlightenment philosophy.

Also, the nation state had already been materialized before the Napoleonic age, and the rise of the modern nation state was in the sixteenth century. Nationalism also has its roots before the Enlightenment and the 1848 revolutions.

Philip S. Gorcki's groundbreaking article, published in 2000 "The Mosiac Moment: An Early Modernist Critique of Modernist Theories of Nationalism" traces the development of nationalism to the Protestant Reformation, and in particular -- Calvinism. "Biblical" Nationalism was the foundation of the Seven United Provinces, later England >> Great Britain, and the United States (it's a purely Reformed Protestant phenomena due to Calvinist Social Contract theology and their attachment to the Israelites of the Old Testament and the belief that "God works through nations, not a Church.") You can also read Robert D. Woodberry on the same subject who touches upon the same subject. Also, J.C.D. Clarke also published an article in 2000 "Protestantism, Nationalism, and Identity, 1660-1832" and should be read as a companion to Gorcki's more famous and influential article. The white-washing of history by anti-religionists is something that is troubling for history. I mean, all this stuff is rather largely accepted within mainstream academia that Protestantism gave rise to nationalism, the nation-state, and liberalism. To try and run and hide from that is intellectual dishonesty. Liah Greenfeld's book, published in 1992 before the new scholarship appeared in the 21st century, Nationalism: Five Roads to Modernity highlighted the importance of sixteenth and early seventeenth century Protestantism upon the birth of nationalism. Eric Nelson's book The Hebrew Republic: Jewish Sources and the Transformation of European Political Thought (Professor of History, Harvard) was so well-received it won several awards and prizes in political science and history since it's publication. (I'm Catholic, not Protestant, and have no 'biases' in promoting a view that Protestantism gave rise to nationalism, liberalism, and republicanism - but that's just the historical and political science fact that is often overlooked for many reasons I'd prefer not to get drawn into a discussion thereof).


Anyway, I'm sure everyone has a hypothesis as to how the AAR will end. But not even half-way through the second volume, which is the high water mark of Roman revivalism per the purposes of the AAR, we're about to enter the beginning of the Protestant Reformation too...And GulMacet is right. While the title is a very strong homage to Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, the deliberate insertion of civilization is important for the future of the AAR and how I intend to conclude the work.

And a happy and warm welcome again to Metternich30 for dropping by! :)
 
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