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volksmarschall

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Chapter XVII

The Syrian Wars Between the Turks and Mamluks

The Mohammedan world at the ascent of John’s reign was in turmoil, with two great powers – the Turks and the Egyptians (Mamluks) in a titanic struggle against one another for control of Syria, which had long been contested by both kingdoms. The Mamluks were a band of slave warriors, mostly from Central Asia and the Caucasus that had risen to power in the land of the Pharaohs. Naturally however, there was a problem with dynastic succession – as Muslims were forbade from owning other Muslims as slaves. As Mamluks were slaves, the son of the sitting Mamluk ruler was never allowed, for his life would be that of slave, to become the next ruler of the dynasty, which often led to power struggles within the ranks of the Mamluks. The Burji Dynasty was named not after their first ruler, but after the barracks. The Burji Barracks in Cario, located an island in the middle of the Nile, was a mighty site to see, and a stronghold that the native Egyptians would not be able to crack.

The Mamluks have a rich military history. They had defeated French Crusaders in the thirteenth century, and had even turned back the Mongols after their sacking of Baghdad and destruction of the theoretically unified Mohammedan Caliphate. For some, they were the saviors of Mohammedanism. And that they most certainly were. By the fourteenth century, Egypt was the most economically rich and industrially developed region in the entire western world – Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. When Timur invaded Iraq and later threatened the Mamluks, the great philosopher and historian Ibn Khaldun – acting as a sort of court diplomat, convinced Timur that the real riches of the Muslim world was in Turkey, and Timur and his army marched into the Turkish kingdom. At the Battle of Ankara, the Turks were dealt a severe blow – and this marked the beginning of the animosity between the two regimes, not to mention that the sitting Turkic Sultan had claimed the title of Caliph after the extinction of the title with the last Abbasid ruler, Al-Musta'sim Billah, who was trampled to death in a carpet by the Mongols when Baghdad fell.

The Mamluks, like the Turks, were a very tolerant and diverse people. Jews and Christians regularly held political office, even if they were rather menial and less important civil positions – which always went to Sunnis. The Mamluks themselves were not Egyptian, but as I stated, from various tribes and confederacies from the Caucasus Mountains and Central Asia – the Burji were predominately Circassians. They ruled over Egypt benevolently, and had helped to foster one of the world’s greatest economies during their stewardship. In particular, the textile industry in Egypt was the world’s finest, and her products were sought not only in Europe, but as far away as Asia too.

The resolute nature of the Late Period Empire in preventing the Turks to capture Constantinople in the fifteenth century, and some of the gains they had made once again in Greece at their expense, caused the Turks to turn their attention southward into Syria where the powerful Mamluks had amassed at their border. Although the Koran forbids the killing of other Muslims, and both being Sunni, the power of politics and rivalries over territory, empire, and economics is always more powerful than religious codes and laws. The animosity was multifold: the Mamluks had directed Timur to attack them in Asia Minor, the two had a bitterly contested rivalry over Syria – of which only one of the two powers could maintain rule or conquer the region, the Mamluks saw themselves as the legitimate defenders of the faith in saving the theoretical caliphate from Christian Crusaders and the Mongol Horde; yet, it was the Turkic Sultan who claimed the title of caliph and the spiritual authority over all Mohammedans. And lastly, the attention of Turkish conquest was set to the Middle East after the failures to crack the walls of Constantine’s fabled city.

Between 1470 and 1495, the two powers were at a standstill over Syria. The Turkish fleet had been destroyed by the Mamluk fleet, who possessed the largest navy in the world by the end of the fifteenth century, including one of the greatest arsenals of heavy ships that would make England or France envious of the naval power and prestige of Egypt. Even the newly revived Roman fleet would fail in combat against the Mamluks and their heavy mast ships if war ever broke out between the two great empires. By contrast however, while the slave sultans of Cairo may have controlled the war at sea, the war on land was much more static and harsh, and probably favored the Turks over the Mamluks.


The Battle of the Alexandrian Coast, where the Mamluk fleet stunned the Turkish fleet and gave the Mamluks supremacy of the Mediterranean.

The Turks, unlike the Mamluks, possessed the most advanced military in the world. Armed with many cannons and firearms, and the world’s most elite fighting force – the Janissaries, the bloodbath in Syria between the two empires was disastrous to say the least. One of the problems for the Mamluks was the lack of responsiveness to use gunpowder weaponry, which was seen as a tool not befitting of the slave soldiers of their empire to actually arm themselves with – with the fear that they might turn these weapons against their masters and overlords.

During the Third Syrian War, 1494, the two empires were locked in their worst struggle yet. At Aleppo, an Army of 30,000 Turks and 36,000 Mamluks would meet at the field of one of the great ancient cities of a bygone world. The Turks had with them some 50 cannons, as opposed to just a handful of Mamluk cannons that were poorly equipped, armed, and commanded by ill-trained artillerists. The two day battle of Aleppo was one of the most brutal conflicts between Muslims since the Battle of Karbala, the infamous battle in which the Sunni-Shi’a split was heightened when 70 members of the Prophet’s family were killed by the Sunni Umayyads. Indeed, the high preponderance of horses and camels, guns, swords, spears, and arrows made the oncoming fight something out of the apocalypse. In fact, some of the millenarian Mohammedans, believing that the apocalypse was soon approaching, identified the battle as the event before the Final Judgment. This millenarian fever was something that created an even more tense atmosphere. The Turkic sultan even wrote:

This battle between those of us who are the true believers can only be seen through the lens of the Return of Christ and the inauguration of God's Kingdom and the final judgment upon humanity. The wholesale slaughter of believers like what is forthcoming, can only be justified in light of the end of history and the beginning of God's Kingdom on earth.[1]

The battle commenced with a large cannonade by the Turks, dispersing the Mamluk heavy cavalry allowing for a general infantry advance. The Janissary corps reached within 50 yards of the Mamluk infantry, most of whom were armed with swords and spears. As the Mamluks rushed forward, three deadly volleys of musket fire broke out from among the Janissaries causing severe casualties to the Mamluk forces. The Turkish cavalry then charged forth, riding down and shattering the Mamluk infantry body. As the Mamluks retreated, the Turkish advance became somewhat disorganized, and the Mamluk cavalry slammed into the center of the overexposed Turkish advance. Splitting the Turkish army in two, the frontward half was cut to pieces. At the end of the first day of battle, some 10,000 Mamlukes had been killed and captured with about an equal number of Turks.

At the commencement of battle on the second day, both sides opened with prayers in the direction of Mecca. The Mamluks, possessing superior numbers, attempted to outflank the Turkish army 10 miles to the right of the Turkish lines. However, once again the Turkish artillery prevented the Mamluks from further advance dealing heavy losses to the Mamluk army. The Turkish cavalry attempted to seize the initiative and did so quite effectively. Riding down and dispersing the Mamluk cavalry, the Turks had a straight line to the main Mamluk encampment where Sultan Abraham Burji was standing. Fearing for his life, the Mamluk sultan fled the field anticipating defeat. The Turkish cavalry chased after him, but were gunned down by the six Mamluk artillery pieces and royal guard. When the Mamluk infantry broke however, the battle ended in the pyrrhic Turkish victory. The Turks had lost some 14,000 men in the battle, and the Mamluks nearly 20,000. Despite the victory at Aleppo, the Turks were routed north of Damascus about 4 weeks later – bringing both sides to the negotiation tables. Settling on an un-advantageous peace for both sides, the Third Syrian War ended just like the past two – neither side could claim true victory. The Mamluks however, were probably the closest thing to a winner, as they held back the Turkish invaders even if at great losses.


The Battle of Aleppo, a slaughter of Mohammedans upon Mohammedans was something that surely made Muhammad weep. The Syrian Wars forced Turkish expansionist ambitions back west to Greece, and soon enough, the Turks were set on besieging Constantinople once more.

The Third Syrian War is important for John X for the fallout that befell him and the Roman Empire as a result of the failed Turkish conquest. Although Theodoras was still emperor during the war between the Turks and Mamluks, by the time John ascended to the throne the Turks attention of conquest in Syria turned once more to Greece and Constantinople. Believing that the young emperor was inexperienced, and he certainly was, and that the empire was politically, economically, and militarily weak after the civil war that ended in Theodoras’s death – the Turks re-assembled their armies and prepared for another war against the Romans. Hoping this time would be the final deathblow against the heirs of Augustus, the Turks formally invaded the Roman Empire in April 1500. Emperor John was but 16 years old at the time, and faced his first major crisis.

The Turkish army was well-equipped and battle-hardened. Numbering at some 40,000 professional soldiers under arm. The Roman Army was half that size with a standing at only 16,000 strong, of which about half were mercenaries under the command of the various ranking nobles in Greece and their loyalty was also suspect (not to say that the normal Roman soldier's loyalty outside of John's new Imperial Guard were equally suspect). Although, for the first time since the Komnenoi Dynasty, the Roman navy was larger than their Mohammedan foe (but smaller than that of the Mohammedan Egyptians) – the real war wasn’t to be fought on the waves of the Mediterranean but the hills and plains of Greece. Rather than wait behind the walls of Constantinople, John sallied forth and marched out of the city – boldly taking the fight straight to the Turks at Adrianople. Another Turkish-Roman War had begun.




[1]In Islamic Theology, Jesus has a Second Coming to bring forth the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment of humanity, the inauguration of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth (Paradise), and he will reign for 40 years. In that aspect, Islamic eschatology is very close to Christian views of the end-times, with the notable exception of Jesus only reigning for 40 years, as opposed to the Christian pre-millennial view of 1,000 years commonly found among Fundamentalist Protestant circles.
 
Last edited:

GulMacet

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Do you have any allies? Even though they are schismatic Catholics, maybe the Hungarians can help. Hope you can defeat the Turkish Hordes in detail, before they manage to assemble overwhelming force!
 

Enewald

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I would think that crossbows and longbows would still be far deadlier and effective than the early 16th century muskets.
Good luck dealing with another Mohammedan onslaught. Lets see how the Walls of Thedosian stand against newer siege weapons.

Speaking of warfare between the faithful, were not Timurid campaigns quite brutal when it came to Muslims slaying each other? :p
I would think they were quite accustomed to everyone fighting everyone, whatever the religions of the combatants.
 

Idhrendur

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Another war, eh? Time to take back more Roman territory.
 

Dr.Livingstone

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I would think at the very least the Muscovites would be willing to help their Orthodox brothers. In any case, best of luck.
 

volksmarschall

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Do you have any allies? Even though they are schismatic Catholics, maybe the Hungarians can help. Hope you can defeat the Turkish Hordes in detail, before they manage to assemble overwhelming force!

Actually, I have several Latin allies, including Austria! ;) Although, they aren't too helpful, at least not until the war gets going...

I would think that crossbows and longbows would still be far deadlier and effective than the early 16th century muskets.
Good luck dealing with another Mohammedan onslaught. Lets see how the Walls of Thedosian stand against newer siege weapons.

Speaking of warfare between the faithful, were not Timurid campaigns quite brutal when it came to Muslims slaying each other? :p
I would think they were quite accustomed to everyone fighting everyone, whatever the religions of the combatants.

The primary documentation of Timur's invasions are vague, often propaganda against him, and are just unreliable. I mean, Edward Gibbon covers Timur's invasion in Volume 6 of his work, and provides a range of 'primary' documentation ranging from several hundred thousand to up to 1.5 million combatants! :eek: That's absurd. From my own studies, while Timur was certain brutal in his conquests, the number of dead are vastly exaggerated, and with regards to his fighting of actual Muslims, seems to have responded in victory in accordance to Qur'anic teachings (minus the rejection of the passages that say 'believers' should not fight and kill other 'believers' (ironically enough, this included Jews and Christians historically)). For example, after Bayezid was taken captive, he was afforded good treatment as a fellow believer. This seems to be the case with other Muslim captives during his campaigns.

Of course, that added bit by me is an attempt to incorporate the animosity and millennarian expectations of Muslims by the beginning of the sixteenth century and into the middle of it. The Ottomans and Safavids for instance, believed that the apocalypse was going to happen between their struggle (without Safavid Persia in this game, I've re-incorporated it into the struggles between the Ottomans and Mamluks). Of course, the Safavids thought that Ismail I was the return of the 12th Imam, a sign of the end times (Twelver Shi'a) and thereby was invincible in combat - so at the battle of Chaldiran, the Safavids didn't bring their artillery and modern weaponry and got slaughtered afterward. The propaganda machine for Ismail had to work overtime after that event.

Another war, eh? Time to take back more Roman territory.

Unfortunately, I have the problem of having Asia Minor otherwise completely exposed to invasion...something that inflates the warscore against me. :glare:

I would think at the very least the Muscovites would be willing to help their Orthodox brothers. In any case, best of luck.

Moscow is too far away for me to gain an alliance with them. Preferably I'd get a marriage then alliance, but +100 relations and I'm still -1 on the scale necessary for a marriage. So close. Actually, the "Russian" Orthodox Church didn't have much love for Greek Orthodoxy after the Council of Florence. The Greeks attempt to reconcile (for political reasons) was cause enough for the Patriarch in Moscow to condemn the Greeks as having gone heretical. Naturally, it wasn't until the fall of Constantinople that the "Third Rome" started to become popular and the Russians would use Byzantine lineage to further their legitimacy. The rift between Moscow and Constantinople is still pronounced today to some degree, the Patriarch there sees himself as the spiritual head of true Orthodoxy rather than the Ecumenical Patriarch still seated in Constantinople.
 

Kurt_Steiner

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No problem. We'll see Roman blitzkrieg all the way to Bagdad this time.



:laugh:
 

volksmarschall

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No problem. We'll see Roman blitzkrieg all the way to Bagdad this time.
:laugh:

I'm more focused on blitzing Venice and 'avenging' the loss of 1204 than marching on Baghdad! :p

The Venetians will fear the wrath of John, at least, not until we finish up these Turkish campaigns...
 

volksmarschall

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Oh Megas Basileus kai Autokrator thon Rhomaion, crush the Turks and restore Rhomania!

Ha, I only wish. Survival, and maybe a territory or two is the main agenda, not a sweeping conquest. I just lack the manpower and the economy to accomplish that...

Also, thanks for the comment josa235! :)
 

josa235

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Volksmarschall, can you make the Turks release states in Asia Minor? You could roleplay it saying that some emirs rebelled with some money given to them by John X and that they managed to expel the turkish garrisons from the former Karamanoglu or Candaroglu emirates for example while the Ottoman Empire was in a (mostly inconclusive) life or death struggle with the Roman Empire). It wold resemble the Sicilian Vespers although it would be harder.

P.S.-John X should reconquer what's remaining of Ottoman Greece, Bulgaria (or release it through the negotiation tables or through funding rebels if you have enough money, but I think the emperor has some coins as he rebuilt the Hippodrome), Venice (how our and realistic alternate histories are so ironic) and use the Italian Wars to restore the Catepanate of Italy and destroy the Kingdom of Naples (although he would have to contend with the Spanish and the French).
 

volksmarschall

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Volksmarschall, can you make the Turks release states in Asia Minor? You could roleplay it saying that some emirs rebelled with some money given to them by John X and that they managed to expel the turkish garrisons from the former Karamanoglu or Candaroglu emirates for example while the Ottoman Empire was in a (mostly inconclusive) life or death struggle with the Roman Empire). It wold resemble the Sicilian Vespers although it would be harder.

P.S.-John X should reconquer what's remaining of Ottoman Greece, Bulgaria (or release it through the negotiation tables or through funding rebels if you have enough money, but I think the emperor has some coins as he rebuilt the Hippodrome), Venice (how our and realistic alternate histories are so ironic) and use the Italian Wars to restore the Catepanate of Italy and destroy the Kingdom of Naples (although he would have to contend with the Spanish and the French).

I'm not going to be interfering with any of the politics through such actions, even if it makes a certain good deal of sense of plausibility, but strictly conforming to the play-thru I had with Byzantium hidden with, I hope has been, an engaging historical narrative as I've crossed the annals of Byzantine culture, society, politics, and military matters to additionally bring forth to some detail, the actualities of Byzantine history.

Although, certain revolts in Asia Minor, which are slatted to occur in the 1530s and early 1540s, will have a very serious and important story-line in the development of the final 'third volume' of this AAR history. Sadly, I won't be using the Italian Wars to conquer Naples, since they're now my allies. The Italian Wars will be a magnificent showdown with the traitorous Venetians, the pesky French, and the necessity to reclaim "The Horses of Saint Mark", actually and properly called, the Triumphal Quadriga as well as the Stature of the Tetrarchs, and other treasures stolen from Constantinople in 1204. ;)


EDIT: So I was ironically motivated, through the collection of new resources, to write a few updates while away. So, you all get to have the beginning of Chpater XVIII early!
 
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volksmarschall

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Chapter XVIII

This Magnificent Army​

For an emperor, John was the most intrepid of souls. He was, by today’s standards, a man who was filled with imperialistic impulse – yet, was seemingly filled with paternalism towards his subjects. A fellow traveler, he, in the middle of the civil wars, had done something few of the emperors since the Palaiologoi Restoration had done: travel extensively beyond the walls of Constantinople. He had spent such a long duration of time in Asia Minor, and to a lesser extent Greece, he had a heartfelt attachment to these lands, their people, and their needs. His inquisitiveness is something also to admire. If there ever was a soul in the era of the Late Period Empire who deserved to be raptured from the inevitable doom and judgment to befall the empire – it would have been him.

Upon his ascension, his advisers, keeping an eye on the conflicts in Syria, expected that the Turks would attempt to take advantage of the most recent civil war in Roman history – and strike at an ill-opportune time. To John’s credit, and Manuel Phokas’s as well, the Roman army had to be reformed to meet the demands of warfare in the age of the Renaissance.

This magnificent army assembled during John’s reign, tested in the Turkish War, reaching its apex during the Italian Wars, before declining at the end of his reign and death – was one of the finest armies ever fielded by the Romans since the disastrous defeat at the Battle of Manzikert. The Komnenoi Army never surpassed more than 40,000-50,000 men under arms at the height of their superficial restoration, which was more a result of the concurrent crusades by the Latins than with Roman ingenuity under the Komnenoi. The Palaiologoi Army reached its height under John X – fielding some 33,000 men during the Italian Wars, and just over 20,000 during this Turkish War – reaching therefore, the same amount of soldiers during the Palaiologoi restoration when Michael re-conquered Constantinople and destroyed the usurping Latin Kingdom. While far short of the number of men under arms during the reigns of Alexios and John [Komnenos], the army under John X was nothing short of fielding a prideful patriotism and vigor that can be said to have rivaled the forces under Belisarius when they marched across North Africa, Sicily, and Italy in their conquest of Rome.

The principle weapon, once more, was the spear and pike and sword for hand-to-hand combat when the spear or pike wall had been broken. Modeled after the armies of Western Europe, they moved and fought in tight compact formations with only a modest amount of armor and no shields. However, John’s army had in its possession several thousand matchlock firearms, and a dozen mobile cannons that travelled with the Imperial Army that commanded. While this would be first Roman army to have a principle force of modern firearms that had been slow to be employed due to financial constraints, the ‘modern’ army was still ancient in so many ways – having a vastly inferior cache of firearms and cannons than even the second rate powers of Europe like the Kingdoms of Aragon or Bohemia. Upon the outbreak of war, the young emperor provided over a personal review of the army – writing in his journal afterward:

I overlooked the men who served me. Their pride, patriotism, and appearance would have made a lesser soul cry with their appearance. The men, undoubtedly eager to test themselves in battle for the glory of dying for me – had a certain aura about them that signaled greatness. They were nothing less than magnificent. Evagrius informed me, the army that I have fielded to be the finest in our dynasty’s history! I could not agree more. I even wept at the inspection of my new guard.


The "magnificent" re-modeled Roman Army, forming itself as something comparable to the Renaissance armies of Italy, looked more like it was ready for a grande parade than actual war. It also gave the empire and its leaders, from John to Phokas to the general officers, an overconfident sense of optimism in the coming conflict.

Manuel Phokas shared similar beliefs when looking over the troops with the emperor, noting, “This splendid army is the greatest sight I have ever seen in my life. I am not worried about survival; I can see victory in the future.” For all the circumstance however, the Late Period Army was still plagued with its common problems of the past that Rome was never able to overcome. First, there was no chain of command. The emperor, the titular head of the army, and his generals, had control of the men they had personally raised and trained. The despotates therefore, had the real power to control and deploy the army. Secondly, nearly half of this army was comprised of mercenaries, mostly from Spain and Italy. Catholic, not Orthodox, Latin, not Greek, these troops had little attachment to Greece or the Roman Empire, fighting for the emperor only because he and the dukes of Greece had promised them a wealthy treasure chest of money and loot for their service. Could they be counted upon to hold their own in battle and not desert if given the opportunity or if it arose during the campaign or battle? Third, the army lacked any significant cavalry arm. While horsemen had since been on the decline since the beginning of the Renaissance, they still played in invaluable role on the battlefield, and one decisive charge in the middle of a battle could turn the tide of not just an engagement, but an entire war if not the fate of a nation. Fourth, despite fielding nearly 20,000 men at the beginning of the war, and some 6,400 marines and sailors in the navy – the empire’s war arm was short of men and losses could never be easily replaced.

Despite all these problems, the Roman army was properly trained and an effective fighting force, as we will see. Although it still possessed the characteristic problems that would spur the continuing decline and fall of the Roman Empire, the army was, in an ironic way – the medium by which the Roman Empire in its final decades would hide its inherent faults and weaknesses. Meeting success these last fifty years after nearly two centuries of military failures, this created new sense of private invincibility not only in the army but among the Roman population who saw these changes as proof that Providence was on their side. The new, albeit temporary, success also shielded the reality that the army was decentralized and lacked a coherent central authority even with the emperor’s presence.

The Turkish army was superior on every level. They possessed more guns, cannons, spears, swords, bows, arrows, men, and professionals. Despite the inherent superiority of the Mohammedans and their skillful ability in war – the division of the Turkish army, at most, only 10,000 soldiers were stationed in Europe as the rest of the army was fighting in the Orient – a quick Roman strike out of Southern Greece and Thrace could achieve the desired symbolic victory that John was seeking as was the rest of Europe (hopeful still, that the Turks would be expelled from Europe). An Italian serving in the Imperial Army therefore remarked, “We are off to battle the infidels for the heretics [speaking of the Orthodox], may God look over us in the forthcoming war.”

It was an odd marriage – Catholic Europeans serving an Orthodox Greek who claimed to be the scions of the Latin emperors of Rome even if that line of caesars had been extinguished more than a millennia ago. Yet, there seemed to be a willingness of the Catholic mercenaries to serve their heretical brethren who also bore the titles of “emperor of the Romans.” However, this new army was not without its pessimists. Duke Andronikus of the Morea opined, “This army that has so much unfettered praise is still so far removed from the men who marched with Scipio, Caesar, or even Titus and Belisarius that there should be no comparison of the armies…if one battle goes wrong, it is doubtful that even John [the emperor] could save the army from disintegration.”

Thus, the ‘magnificent’ army that marched out to face the Turks, while definitely the best army ever fielded by the Late Period Empire, isn’t saying much to a military force that knew nothing but defeat from 1265-1451 A.D., interwoven with only a few minor successors like the episode of the Sicilian Vespers, which was successful due to diplomatic skill than military prowess. It remained to be seen how this reformed Roman army, or rather, Italian army serving the Roman emperor, would hold up in a pitched battle against the Turks. The baptism of blood and fire that would test the army to its limits, and thereby create it, would occur on the fields where the Goths had destroyed the Roman Army of Emperor Valens in 378 A.D.


Baroque era artist, Peter Paul Reuben, depicting Emperor John of the Romans as the God of War -- Mars. This is an overly romantic and clearly inaccurate portrayal, but it served to suffice the dictates of Baroque style art. Interestingly, Reuben was a Catholic, and in this painting, depicts a Hellene Orthodox whose claim was Caesar of Rome.


 
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josa235

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Excellent update, Volksmarschall! Don't be offended if I make any critique but I think that although the 16th century Romans wouldn't have much money to make lamellar armour or import plate armour (especially if they couldn't make it in the Empire) for their heavy cavalrymen (although the importance of the heavy cavalry was decreasing since the early 14th century and the pike and shoot tactics were proving to be quite effective against them as the battle of Pavia demonstrated in our world) the Roman Empire would have a significant light cavalry arm formed by Greek and Albanian Stratiotai and probably some Turkish mercenaries or Turkopoloi.

I was seeing your posts much before I started posting on this forum and I still have some questions about the Greek Renaissance and its impact on the policies of the Empire. As Rhomania entered the Renaissance it provably rediscovered its classical past in its full entirety. Which will be the consequences of that rediscovery on John X, the last of the Romans? Is he going to inspire his tactics and perhaps the future organization of its armies on the Roman legions (with some obvious adaptations to the firearms and cannons)? Which will be the effects of that rediscovery of the ancient past in culture, coinage and the rituals and styles of the court? Will he try to “return” to a Classical past (with some compromises with reality and the Church, of course)? What will he do to the city of Constantinople (besides recovering the Horses and rebuilding the Hippodrome) and the Great Palace? Will he order a new majestic church to leave his mark (and perhaps build a new Hagia Sophia on the place of our own just as the Renaissance popes did with Saint Peter’s Basilica)? I saw your list of chapters and I wonder as well how he will try to reclaim the supremacy over Europe for the Roman Empire. How will he see the Western and Muslim states that occupy former Roman territories? As an emperor who wishes to restore the glory of the Empire I don’t think that at least legally he will renounce to any claims he has over those territories as the Empire was one and indivisible. My final question is how will be his relationship with the Pope and if he will try to sack or even conquer Rome in order to reclaim the birthplace and former capital of Rhomania alleging that the Pope acquired illegally those lands (without the Donation of Constantine the Pope couldn’t defend his claims on Rome based on being God’s representative on Earth as he was an heretic in John’s eyes) and try to restore the Pentarchy (creating more confusion in Europe, which has its fair share of reformed churches) with the Pope's exile being protected by the king of Spain in Toledo or Madrid or the king of France in Avignon (maybe with some kind of agreement with John)? That would change the geopolitics of that world a lot.

Thank you for reading this and making your AAR. Even if I think that sometimes your alternate reality could have been a little different and our views of History are different (you have a mainly negative view on the Roman Empire while I have a positive one) your timeline is realistic (perhaps even a bit optimistic as the Roman Empire was practically doomed in 1444 although Constantinople, especially if the Western nations had sent more supplies and men, would have been very hard to conquer as it happened in reality). I'm sorry if my questions are too many but I am so curious and love this AAR.
 

volksmarschall

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@ josa235: I most certainly appreciate that you are enjoying (and have enjoyed) the AAR. Most of your questions, I suppose, will be answered (perhaps satisfactorily or unsatisfactorily) in the rest of the planned "Volume 2". However, to answer you questions on the Roman/Byzantine Army, even though this AAR has been shielded with historicity and my commitment to try and stay within historical realms of plausibility, it is also still based on gameplay. I only 1,000 Knights in my army - the rest infantry (I just don't have the money to have a large cavalry arm which is 3x the maintenance cost of infantry) so this has to be reflected in my writings. Thus, even though you bring forth great points that I would have probably otherwise made if I had 3,000-5,000 horsemen (in gameplay terms), I do not.

Also, I wish to point out that I do not have an overly optimistic view since, as you point out, by 1444 (hell, by 1347 after their most recent civil war) they were, by all intents and purposes, done. However, I still have to reflect the fact I've survived this long in the campaign. In addition, I don't hold to an only negative view of the Romans (I'm not insinuating you're implying this, but I would perhaps like to take the time to properly clarify my stance). Rome (and Greece, if not more Greece) is the progenitor of "Western" Civilization, law and order, constitutionalism, ideas of justice, republicanism are all great legacies of the Romans that I think we all should be very grateful for. However, I do not share in the overly positive view of the Romans that many people, on Paradox Forums, the Total War Forums, and the rest of the internet have (i.e., non-professionals). In fact, I would say that great majority of modern historians of Rome are, at times, very critical in their assessments (at least the great majority of classical scholars that I read).

I hold this view because this "Glory of Rome" mentality draws away from the magnificent accomplishments of other Antiquity civilizations and cultures: the Persians, the Arabs (Muslims), even the "Barbarians" (whom, as a new generation of scholars have pointed out, since about the early 2000s, the "Barbarians" (except for Attila) were not as bad as others have always claimed). They were nomadic people only, not these "savages" that we often think about. Their entry into Roman lands was in part, because of the Huns invasion of their lands forcing them west. They requested safe passage, land and food from the Romans, and when they declined, naturally, a hungry and tired people will act to serve their own human impulses (Rome was dumb to not accommodate them, when they did - these "barbarians" were extremely loyal to Rome and her ideals). The Western Roman Empire lasted as long as it did because of the "Barbarians", men like Stilicho, and even Odoacer before he marched on Ravenna, were very skillful and loyal in their military service to the empire. Stilicho saved Rome, and what did he get in return? Arrest and execution. The Romans considered everyone else who wasn't Roman "Barbarians," including the highly cultured, cultivated, and civilized Persians. So, my negativity is tied to what I perceive, as a historian who writes on the subject somewhat professionally (even if I don't have a PhD), as a terrible outlook on Roman culture and history from others. I mean, by the 3rd Century, Rome was an incredibly immoral, decadent, prostitution-based (politically and economically, selling themselves to the highest bidder) society that had lost all sense of their republican and early imperial (pseudo-republicanism as many historians would list it as) virtues and patriotism. I actually think very highly of the Roman Republic (I know few who do not), but the growing view on the "Roman Empire" is shifting towards negativity, as more and more information is revealed to just how corrupt, immoral, paranoid, destitute, and violent, the empire was.

And by no means be sorry for your questions. As someone who realizes that my published work in small time journals doesn't receive much readership or attention (I am, at least right now, a complete nobody in the world of history despite my B.A. and writings, and this is also true for my other work). In part, I love the Paradox Forum because we can engage in dialogue in with others, and hopefully, provided fun, entertaining, and "historical" (I hope you all can learn something) through AARs and conversations with others and share in a promotion of common knowledge.

Thanks! :)
 

Enewald

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Ah, once again blood shall flow near the fields of the City of Hadrian? :p

Lets not forget previous Roman relations with mercenaries, such as the Catalans who ravaged Thracia quite thoroughly and other mercenaries who established their own small states in Greece, Achaea and Athens, then we have Roussel de Bailleul and his disastrous adventures in post-Manzikert Anatolia...
Greuthungi, Theurvingi, Franks, Burgundi, Suebi, Alemanni, Lombards, Heruls, Gepids, Alans, Vandals all begun their relationship with Rome by serving as mercenaries. One could claim that the Empire in the West was torn apart by mercenaries. :p

But then again one must, is not every soldier that stays employed in order to receive a wage a mercenary? Only those soldiers that join the defence of their fatherland out of some feeling and do not get paid, or join a revolution/rebellion without getting paid, are the only cases of soldiers not being mercenaries?
Isn't the state itself a bunch of mercenaries, offering protection and demanding to be paid by more or less willing employers (the people)? ;)

And judging from what you wrote, the true Fall of an Empire is coming soon?
 

volksmarschall

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Ah, once again blood shall flow near the fields of the City of Hadrian? :p

Lets not forget previous Roman relations with mercenaries, such as the Catalans who ravaged Thracia quite thoroughly and other mercenaries who established their own small states in Greece, Achaea and Athens, then we have Roussel de Bailleul and his disastrous adventures in post-Manzikert Anatolia...
Greuthungi, Theurvingi, Franks, Burgundi, Suebi, Alemanni, Lombards, Heruls, Gepids, Alans, Vandals all begun their relationship with Rome by serving as mercenaries. One could claim that the Empire in the West was torn apart by mercenaries. :p

But then again one must, is not every soldier that stays employed in order to receive a wage a mercenary? Only those soldiers that join the defence of their fatherland out of some feeling and do not get paid, or join a revolution/rebellion without getting paid, are the only cases of soldiers not being mercenaries?
Isn't the state itself a bunch of mercenaries, offering protection and demanding to be paid by more or less willing employers (the people)? ;)

And judging from what you wrote, the true Fall of an Empire is coming soon?

I never intended to move away from the title of the AAR. While I initially thought I would get stomped by the Turks, this didn't happen, so I had to re-evaluate the trajectory of the AAR and the narrative that I wanted to bring to you all. Thus, it follows: Survival >>> (Superficial) Revival >>> Fall.

I've always intended to have the fall in the "third volume" of the AAR. As it stands, we are progressing towards the half-way point of the second volume with Emperor John (I have this chapter, XVIII, XIX, and XX) to write to reach the 'halfway' point, or, at least until 'Part 2' of Volume 2 begins. Once Volume 2 is complete, we will be heading into the final third volume where the fall is slatted to occur. I've played through the game to the point, with certain developments occurring, that I was happy to say, "This is the Fall I've been looking for and will have a wonderful time writing about." ;)

The test, as well, for this AAR -- much like CatKnight "Beyond Tannenberg" is that one can write a 'good' AAR while not necessarily "conquering the world" as most AARs attempt to do (or re-create a large empire for a specific nation).
 

Idhrendur

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I hold this view because this "Glory of Rome" mentality draws away from the magnificent accomplishments of other Antiquity civilizations and cultures: the Persians, the Arabs (Muslims), even the "Barbarians".

Now I kinda want to write about the reformed Persia and nearly united Arabia in my AAR. Because I'm not slow enough at it already. :rofl:

Then again, I might be able to say a little something when I get to the 1650 update. Hmm...
 

volksmarschall

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Now I kinda want to write about the reformed Persia and nearly united Arabia in my AAR. Because I'm not slow enough at it already. :rofl:

Then again, I might be able to say a little something when I get to the 1650 update. Hmm...

Haha, there's more to life, history, and culture than Rome (coming from someone who writes on the Romans)! History isn't Roman-centric, nor is 'classical civilization!' I only wish I had access to AI archives so I could spend a lot of time writing about what's going on with the Ottoman Empire (since I had formal training in Islamic history, a special preference of mine), and be able to re-create the tour of the Mediterranean and European world (even Far East Asian -- the Mongols) that Edward Gibbon provides in his own work. Alas, I'm stuck with only a few visible tidbits (like the Mamluks and Turks fighting it out in Syria) to base any possible work on them upon.

Quite a pity really, I otherwise wouldn't bore you all with the history and tolerance of the Ottoman society, in part, because it would also ruin the narrative form of attempting to have the feel and style of an early twentieth century piece. Looking back, I probably should've been using that era's grammar too! :rofl:
 

volksmarschall

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Interesting Facts About Constantinople as told by a historian:​

So naturally the city of Constantinople is the focus of much of this AAR, as it naturally will be for anyone starting a game with the Byzantines. So it is here that I wish to dispel some misnomers and anachronistic depictions in the game by Paradox. As those of you following this AAR may know -- my professional work has taken me to write a paper on the "Near Eastern" influences upon Byzantine symbolism and iconography. So for starters, none of the Islamic powers (pre-1453) should be depicted with the crescent moon and star as their national symbol. The crescent moon was actually the symbol of the city of Byzantium, which becomes Constantinople -- the official image of the ancient Greek goddess Hecate. The crescent moon and star only enter into Islamic history after the Turks took Constantinople in 1453, and when Mehmet the Conqueror stylized himself as the "Caesar of Rome," he adopted the city emblem to legitimize his claim.

The Crescent moon and star was actually the national symbol of the Byzantine Empire before the Palaiologoi adopted the double-headed eagle as their own symbol (and it remained the national symbol since the double-headed eagle was only associated with families and nobility and not the empire itself). The eagle itself is not Greek or Roman, but was first prominently used by the Hittites, Mesopotamians and ancient Indians. The Byzantines don't start to use the eagle symbol until the late Macedonian Dynasty, and the eagle was probably introduced as a form of iconography as the Byzantines discovered pottery and artwork from the Hittites and Mesopotamians. As the Ottoman Empire spread, and became the dominant power associated with the Islamic world -- the crescent moon and star was adopted by other Islamic powers and future states in the aftermath of the decline and eventual dissolution of the empire.

The weird things people often don't know about history! ;) Most accurately, the Byzantine emblem should be shown with the crescent moon which the empire used from about the fifth century until it's final collapse in 1453. At this point, the image transferred to the Ottomans (the Muslims). Also, the use of the double-headed eagle caused other European rivals who liked to claim inheritance of the Roman Empire, in principle, the Habsburgs and the Grand Duchy of Moscow and later Russia, also used the image to claim their 'rightful' status as the new Rome or Third Rome. There should be an event that changes the national iconography of the Ottomans only after the Byzantine Empire is destroyed!

Cheers!