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Dr.Livingstone

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Have you tried inciting rebels in orthodox provinces yet? That seems the to be the best way to expand when not at war, and you can do so in many places, such as in the eastern ottoman provinces, the knights territory, even Genoa has an orthodox Provence in Crimea. The diplomatic route is second best for this sort of expansion, but it has the added bonus of having extra diplomats, which i'm sure would of been historically accurate had the Byzantium survived as long as this. Hope this helps.
 

volksmarschall

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No crisis should go to waste. You say the Neapolitans declare war, I say an excellent opportunity to reclaim Magna Graecia. You say the Ottomans are expanding in the Balkans, I say more Orthodox populations that will rise up when you play the attrition game against them.

Everyone needs a good casus belli don't they? Yes, I do think its time that Magna Graecia be restored to its rightful owners!

Have you tried inciting rebels in orthodox provinces yet? That seems the to be the best way to expand when not at war, and you can do so in many places, such as in the eastern ottoman provinces, the knights territory, even Genoa has an orthodox Provence in Crimea. The diplomatic route is second best for this sort of expansion, but it has the added bonus of having extra diplomats, which i'm sure would of been historically accurate had the Byzantium survived as long as this. Hope this helps.

I'm more reliant on natural rebellions occurring, like the one mentioned in the Macedonian War of War with Constantine, can't quite remember which one had a Greek nationalist uprising against the Ottos that I included in the post. Yes, diplomacy is one of the tech groups I aimed at, but truth be told, with only 2 diplomats at this stage of the game - one was drained for a long time annexing Athens, and the other has been busy creating good relationships with the Mamluks, Austrians, and Russians, being used to DoW or end wars, and other essentials! :p Although the idea of fomenting Orthodox uprisings is appealing...I really need a third diplomat for the opportunity cost to be worth it from my perspective.

I went Defense Tech group first. One, The Byzantines should have that historically anyways. Two, I almost always pick Defense first because of that 25% moral bonus which is very important in early battles, especially since Otto units are superior early in game to anything that the Byzantines/Eastern factions have.
 

volksmarschall

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Chapter XII

The Neapolitan War and the Conquest of Southern Italy

The Neapolitan War that raged from 1481-1484 was one of the great achievements in the imperial foreign policy of John IX. Although his triumphant entry into Athens ranks higher and certainly more memorable for all the pomp and circumstance associated with the return of the Roman emperor to the city of Athens that had long been under Roman control for over a millennium, the Neapolitan War would see the Roman Empire return to the Italian homelands.

The War itself was decided at the Battle of the Aegean Sea, as the Neapolitan and Roman navies bid haste to garner the favor of the wind and wreck the enemy fleet, which would permit an invasion of the native homelands of Greece or Southern Italy. On May 11, or 12 according to some documents (probably just a mistake) the two fleets met one another south of the Albanian coasts. The Neapolitan fleet included 18 war galleys and other warships, and around 30 or 40 smaller ships. The Roman fleet numbered 24 war galleys and various other warships, and around and equal number of smaller ships.

The naval reforms and training of the now deceased Philemon Tornikes would be put to the test yet again, this time against a European adversary on much more equal terms than with the larger Mohammedan Turkish fleets that required the equivalent to hit and run tactics to prevent the Mohammedan crossing of the Bosphorus. The Romans deployed their fleet in a traditional V-shaped pattern, with the head flagship leading the point. Roman marines lined the sides of the galleys armed with javelins and other missile weapons, and a few of the larger Roman galleys were armed with experimental cannons positioned at the ship’s bow. In the center of the Roman formation were the smaller and more vulnerable ships that had come with the Roman fleet. By comparison, the Neapolitan fleet organized themselves in an even more traditional straight line with their strongest ships at center and their weaker ships on the flanks.

The formation of the fleets gave a clear advantage to the Romans, if they managed to break the Neapolitan lines because it would effectively split the Neapolitan fleet in two. At two o’clock, the Neapolitan fleet broke in the center and was isolated. The Roman navy quickly encircled several of the isolated Neapolitan ships and captured two war galleys, and sunk about a dozen smaller ships of the Neapolitan fleet. The ships that remained headed home after a brutal beating. The Romans, having captured two war galleys and sunk 12 or so smaller ships, lost only 5 small auxiliary vessels during the fighting.


The Battle of the Aegean Sea, this manuscript is apparently detailing the moment when the Roman fleet breaks the Neapolitan fleet.

The Roman victory in the Aegean Sea ensured that the 10,000 strong army led by Emperor John IX would be boarding their transports and head off to invade Southern Italy. Fearing the impending catastrophe, Pope Gregory XIII sent a diplomatic envoy offering a peace settlement between the Neapolitans and the Romans, but was sternly rebuffed in his efforts.[1] By the summer of 1482, the Romans were landing forces in Southern Italy, but a Neapolitan Army gathered by the Duke of Lucania marched south to stop the Roman advance upon Naples while the Romans were themselves, still disorganized and could be defeated before being able to link up.

The resulting battle however highlighted the resiliency of the new Imperial Army of the Palaiologoi. While about 4,000 of the Roman soldiers were Condottierri, mostly Italian mercenaries in the service of the Roman emperors – their loyalty was without question. After all, national identity akin the nationalisms of the nineteenth century had yet to be formulated – they were loyal to the highest bidder for their service, in this case it was the Emperor John IX. The Neapolitan Army of 7,000 men, which could have split and defeated the Palaiologoi Army led by the emperor himself (6,000 or so men) and then turn to defeat the smaller mercenary corps (again, about 4,000 men), the failure of the Neapolitans to catch the Romans divided meant that the Neapolitans would have to fight the united Roman Army of 10,000 men.

The battle itself was hard fought, and saw the deployment of early and primitive firearms, that otherwise had little impact on the actual fighting. After the infantry bodies had come into contact with one another, the Roman cavalry, personally commanded by John IX, swung south to the left of the Neapolitan lines. The Neapolitan cavalry challenged them, but were quickly broken in battle. The Roman cavalry swung behind the Neapolitan line and began forming to strike the Neapolitan army from the rear. Sensing the impending doom, the Neapolitan army fled in order to save themselves. The Romans harassed the retreating Neapolitan army all the way to Naples, where the Neapolitans were humiliated at Abruzzi and Bari, and by the time the army had reached the walls of the capital, surrendered to the Roman Army outside of their walls. Over the next year and a half, the Romans pillaged through Southern Italy. The looting, by all accounts, was destructive and profitable.


The Surrender of the Neapolitan Army to the Roman Army, outside the city of Naples.

However, the war in Southern Italy wasn’t the only military concern for John IX. Georgian nationalists who had risen up against their Mohammedan Tartar masters had successfully re-established a quasi-Georgian kingdom from their former masters, who had been decisively defeated in two major battles.[2] The victory of the Georgian rebels shattered the prestige and power of the Mohammedan Tartars who had come to control the region through various wars and shrewd diplomacy. However, the Georgian rebels were poised to march across the border and invade Roman Georgia, part of the Despotate of Trebizond. The Duke of Trebizond, Manuel Komnenos, was only able to field a force of 4,000 men, about half the size of the rebel army that was situated across the Roman borders.

Attempts at diplomacy failed, and by news of the rebel invasion was delayed due to the emperor fighting in Southern Italy. When the news did arrive in late summer of 1483, the emperor was so grief stricken that he gathered his personal army and set sail from Southern Italy, leaving his generals in command of the Roman forces in Italy. The Roman generals were well aware of their difficult position. Most of the soldiers left in Italy were mercenaries, and the generals feared a mutiny was possible if a peace settlement was not reached. The generals also feared that the weakened Roman military presence would lead to a Neapolitan uprising, which would likely force the Romans out of Southern Italy if it was of substantial size.

As a result of their predicament, the Romans marched to Naples to bring about a favorable peace before the Neapolitans knew of the Roman situation in Italy. Thankfully, the Neapolitans were ready for peace, and opened their arms to the Roman delegation. The province of Salento, which the city of Taranto was part of, was requested as a war conquest of the Romans. The city had a long history under Roman control, and after the division of the western and eastern empires, the city was among the last cities to fall from Roman control after Italy was temporarily re-unified under the emperor Justinian in the sixth century.

The inability of the Neapolitans to realize what had just transpired would cost them dearly. Agreeing to the peace, the Romans regained a historic foothold in Italy. The re-emergence of the Romans in Italy also started many of the Italian powers, as well as the French. The French, who had hegemonic ambitions in Italy, were shocked that the Romans also seemed to have designs on Italy. In addition with the Austrian ambitions in Italy, the French allied with the Venetians, who also feared of a Roman revival in Greece, would eventually lead to a war between the two powers.

But more important issues were on the mind of the emperor. When John arrived in Trebizond, he was unaware of the peace settlement in Italy. Regardless, he and his 6,000 men rallied with Duke Manuel and marched off to fight the Georgian rebels who were marching on T’blishi. It could be of contention that Emperor John overreacted; after all, this was merely a rebel force of rabble? Those who advocate this notion are severely misled or deliberately misleading. Having repelled the Tartars in pitched battle on at least two recorded occasions, the Georgian rebels marching into Roman Georgia were a battle hardened and veteran force marching to liberate their former capital from the yoke of Roman rule. Although united by religion, the Georgians were a stubbornly proud and patriotic people, thus, even being part of the Roman Empire and benefitting from a lax administration, beneficial laws, and a homogenous religious culture – the Georgians were still determined to have an independent kingdom after their own.

Once more, in the crooked and steep mountains of the Caucasus, long a battleground for empires, cultures and religions would the Romans attempt to cement what power they did have in the region to prevent the formation of an independent Georgian Kingdom. I am reminded by the traditional stories of the contentious nature of the Caucasus Mountains, “[God] sneezed when making the Caucasus, spilling all different people and the rugged and uneven terrain in one confined place."[3]




[1]Game version of Pope Gregory XIII, not the Gregory XIII OTL.

[2]A reference to the Golden Horde. It was commonplace for older historians to call the successor Khanates to the Mongols simply as Tartars. Some very old fashioned Orientalists still do.

[3]This is a very traditional Islamic story of the origins of the Caucasus Mountains and its many different people told to me by my Russian History Professor. Personally, I like the humor in the story.
 
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General_Hoth

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Great victory for the Empire. So, all in all, how much province do you control? How much population? How many non greeks population?
 

Idhrendur

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Huh. Turns out I found the religion and culture writings more interesting than the war and conflict one. I'm just weird, I guess.
 

Dr.Livingstone

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Huh. Turns out I found the religion and culture writings more interesting than the war and conflict one. I'm just weird, I guess.

Nah, I prefer it too.
 

tnick0225

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Good to see you gain a foothold in Italy, with luck the Empire can prosper there as well! Hope you manage to defeat those Georgian rebels though...rebels can be a nuisance sometimes especially when they show up when your busy doing other things.

That little tidbit about the Caucuses sounds about right though, it's definitely a region that has seen its share of wars throughout history.

Thanks! Btw, I checked your inkwell for your earlier AARs and saw that you served in the 101 AB. Since this is memorial weekend, I would like to thank you for your service to this country! :)

I have to add my Milan and other CKII AAR to my inkwell, been meaning to do that sometime...

But thank you, and you are welcome. Had some adventures with the 101AB, not too mention meeting people I'd seen in stories of past wars and the real people that had been portrayed in a few different movies. But, Memorial day weekend for me is a somber weekend, spent most of it talking with the guys I served with and reminiscing about the ones we lost.
 
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volksmarschall

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@ Gul Macet: No, I don't believe you can begin the re-Hellenization until you've conquered all the required provinces, at which point they switch to their historic Greek names. Still working on that. Unless you considered the attempts to convert the populations to Orthodoxy as part of the re-Hellenization process. I think the re-Hellenization is separate for Asia Minor and Greece and they do not need to be achieved in tandem to achieve the name switch.

@ Enewald: Yes, Bari was the last holdout of the Catepanate until the Normans threw them in the late 11th century. I don't have the mission to reclaim Southern Italy, I'm not even sure if there is one? Haven't seen it yet. I'm just trying to recover Mainland Greece right now, but the OE is getting in the way of that plan! :glare:

@ General Hoth: I own the 3 starting provinces, plus have captured Salento, Thessaly, Athens, Candar, Sinop, Imerti, Kartli, Albania, and Cyprus. Candar and Sinop and now Salento are non-Greek since the Georgians are considered but of the accepted cultures of the Byzantines. Have no idea about the population, I don't want to dig out my Medieval Atlas and Population book to figure that out. However, in terms of in-game manpower, I'm still on the very low end, upper 20,000 like around 28,000 or so I think.

Historically, The Byzantine Empire never exceeded about 5 million people during the Palaiologi Dyansty's reign when they much of the old Asian Minor and Greek provinces under their control. In the late 1300s, Warren Treadgold lists the number at about 2 million. Although, in 1453, the wiki article says 4.5 million. That CANNOT be right - that just seems way too high for an empire that really only held Constantinople (never exceeded 1 million people according to most credible scholars on the subject) so I have no idea why it says that much! More of the reason why I don't really endorse encyclopedia's for research, ever... :p

@ Idhrendur: You're not weird, I prefer those updates and prefer writing about them. I generally get bored really quickly writing war and conquest. That's why most of the updates haven't been about war, but about state, society, religion and such. I have an update planned about Eastern Mediterranean Trade and economics in the works. However, I think most people on these forums, not referring to any of you kind readers, definitely (probably) prefer war and conquest since that is the main driver in Eu4, unlike say, Victoria.

@ Dr.Livingstone: Ditto. :p

@ tnick0225: The success of the empire will of course have to be offset by the "Fall" that still has to occur sometime in the AAR to make the title true to form! :p I had to retell that humorous story about the Caucasus here, I almost died when my professor told that story to the class. Who says academics don't have a sense of humor? Although, I have never been able to verify the story outside of my professor saying it was a traditional story. He traveled extensively in Russia and the Caucasus and said he was told that when he was over there back in the early 1990s.


To All: I have sort of hit a serious wall with writer's block. I most recently finished editing my historiography paper that I will be submitting for publication, and I have started gathering resources and have begun writing another paper on Persian influences on the Byzantine Empire. Naturally, this takes precedence over my AARs. There are only a few remaining planned posts for this first volume before starting volume 2 though!
 
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volksmarschall

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Diocletian really liked Persian style. :cool:

Interestingly enough, the purple royal robes and markers that the Senators and emperors would wear are supposedly Persian in style! Plus, the two most identifiable images of the empire are not Greek or Roman but Persian or have other Near-Eastern influences! :p





The Double-Headed Eagle comes out of the Hittite tradition and the Tetragrammatic Cross with the motto "King of King Rulers of other Kings" (The 4 betas) is Persian! How's that for revisionism? :eek:
 

Pilot00

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As far as the Porphyra (purple colour) goes, its certainly a Greek tradition (actually one that started by the Phoenicians). The paint was coming out from a very rare sea shell and it was so damn expensive only royalty could afford it, so in a way it was a show off, of Greek nobility.

As for the Tetragramic cross, I have never heard of it been of Persian influence but it certainly captures my interest. Or you mean the motto?

EDIT: The 4 Betas actually mean: Σταυρε, Βαλέα Βασιλέων τον επί Βασιλευούση Βοηθείν: Cross, Help the King of Kings residing in the Queen of Cities or so an orthodox priest once told me.
 

volksmarschall

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As far as the Porphyra (purple colour) goes, its certainly a Greek tradition (actually one that started by the Phoenicians). The paint was coming out from a very rare sea shell and it was so damn expensive only royalty could afford it, so in a way it was a show off, of Greek nobility.

As for the Tetragramic cross, I have never heard of it been of Persian influence but it certainly captures my interest. Or you mean the motto?

EDIT: The 4 Betas actually mean: Σταυρε, Βαλέα Βασιλέων τον επί Βασιλευούση Βοηθείν: Cross, Help the King of Kings residing in the Queen of Cities or so an orthodox priest once told me.

I had read that the Achaemenid kings first used the royal purple dress in their Court, although Purple quickly became associated with the nobility for the rarity and expensive cost of the dye. As for as any line of imperial colors go, most of the historians I have read are very confident that the line transfers: Persia --> Greek and Roman Aristocracy --> Roman Emperors (ergo, they say that the purple robes of the imperial nobility comes from Persia). Etymologically and the foundation of Tyrean Purple are definitely Greek in origin as you clearly note, but seeing that Book of Exodus wasn't actually written by Moses as virtually no scholar believes, the first five books of the bible (Books of Moses) are believed to have been compiled in current written form during the Jewish Captivity. The mentioning of purple as associated with royalty (in Exodus) is likely from the influences of the liberating Persian conqueror Cyrus the Great. As far as the first royal kings/emperors wearing purple, I'm fairly confident it begins with the Persians as they would have possessed the money and power to do so. I am not familiar with any earlier accounts stating that kings of other states were wearing purple before the Persians.

Both the cross and the motto are supposed to have Persian influences. The crosses themselves come from the Christian tradition, but I had read a very convincing article that the color scheme is deliberately taken from Zoroastrian symbolism (hence the red and yellow) as symbolizing the eternal flame associated with Zoroastrian religion.

Not to critique the Orthodox Priest, but almost everyone historian I've read who has translated the motto translates it akin to "King of Kings/King of Kings Ruler over other Kings/King of Kings Ruling over all other Kings" and other such variances (I have translated it myself as King of King who rules over other Kings). I've never seen someone translate it akin to "Help the King of Kings residing in the Queen of Cities," the last additional in the motto makes me suspicious of deliberate political-theology biases as "Queen of Cities" is a deliberate reference to Constantinople. The "King of Kings" motto is first used by the Persian rulers of the aforementioned Achaemenid Empire.

Who knows, when I complete this paper and assuming its accepted for publication, I could swing it your way if you'd like to read it and look at all the sources used? After all, this is the purpose of such research and publication - to stimulate thought and discussion among our kind! :p
 

Pilot00

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I had read that the Achaemenid kings first used the royal purple dress in their Court, although Purple quickly became associated with the nobility for the rarity and expensive cost of the dye. As for as any line of imperial colors go, most of the historians I have read are very confident that the line transfers: Persia --> Greek and Roman Aristocracy --> Roman Emperors (ergo, they say that the purple robes of the imperial nobility comes from Persia). Etymologically and the foundation of Tyrean Purple are definitely Greek in origin as you clearly note, but seeing that Book of Exodus wasn't actually written by Moses as virtually no scholar believes, the first five books of the bible (Books of Moses) are believed to have been compiled in current written form during the Jewish Captivity. The mentioning of purple as associated with royalty (in Exodus) is likely from the influences of the liberating Persian conqueror Cyrus the Great. As far as the first royal kings/emperors wearing purple, I'm fairly confident it begins with the Persians as they would have possessed the money and power to do so. I am not familiar with any earlier accounts stating that kings of other states were wearing purple before the Persians.

Both the cross and the motto are supposed to have Persian influences. The crosses themselves come from the Christian tradition, but I had read a very convincing article that the color scheme is deliberately taken from Zoroastrian symbolism (hence the red and yellow) as symbolizing the eternal flame associated with Zoroastrian religion.

Not to critique the Orthodox Priest, but almost everyone historian I've read who has translated the motto translates it akin to "King of Kings/King of Kings Ruler over other Kings/King of Kings Ruling over all other Kings" and other such variances (I have translated it myself as King of King who rules over other Kings). I've never seen someone translate it akin to "Help the King of Kings residing in the Queen of Cities," the last additional in the motto makes me suspicious of deliberate political-theology biases as "Queen of Cities" is a deliberate reference to Constantinople. The "King of Kings" motto is first used by the Persian rulers of the aforementioned Achaemenid Empire.

Who knows, when I complete this paper and assuming its accepted for publication, I could swing it your way if you'd like to read it and look at all the sources used? After all, this is the purpose of such research and publication - to stimulate thought and discussion among our kind! :p

Interesting info thanks for that. However on the 4 B translation. Wasn't the flag already designed with a political moto in mind? Given the fact that it was a very late addition it would make sense there was no King of Kings during the Palaiologoi period. The empire was no empire at all and the Persians were a bit of a past threat to the Romans back there. I have no actual idea to be honest and I think its a bit debated still. Also 0 knowledge on the Zorastrian field :D Were there many left during that time period?
 
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Philo32b

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volksmarschall, it is with pleasure that I nominate your AAR for the WritAAR of the Week Award. Many thanks for an excellent AAR! I have enjoyed it a great deal.
 

Dr.Livingstone

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Congratz volksmarschall! May this feeling of Déjà vu never wear off! (Seriously, isn't this the second time this month?) :D
 

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@ tnick0225: The success of the empire will of course have to be offset by the "Fall" that still has to occur sometime in the AAR to make the title true to form! :p

True enough, but first have to have a nice sized empire so that there is something to "Fall". It will definitely be interesting to witness what trajectory things go and if there will actually be a "Fall" :)

To All: I have sort of hit a serious wall with writer's block. I most recently finished editing my historiography paper that I will be submitting for publication, and I have started gathering resources and have begun writing another paper on Persian influences on the Byzantine Empire. Naturally, this takes precedence over my AARs. There are only a few remaining planned posts for this first volume before starting volume 2 though!

Congratulations on finishing that! Wish you the best of luck on getting it published!

Writer's block can be rough, but no need to hurry or rush an update. I sometimes lose the muse and don't find it again for a week or two or in some instances a few months lol :)

But anyways many congratulations on being this week's Writer of the Week!
 

volksmarschall

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Thanks all again for the kind words regarding the award. I do find it somewhat humorous (my sense of humor anyways) that the Showcase and Writer of the Week have all happened in a time when, I must confess, my interest and enthusiasm in writing these updates is waning do actual work commitments. :ninja:

volksmarschall, it is with pleasure that I nominate your AAR for the WritAAR of the Week Award. Many thanks for an excellent AAR! I have enjoyed it a great deal.

Many thanks Philo for thinking the AAR is worthy of being the recipient of the Writer of the Week! And it's great to see that other people are reading this! :cool:

Writer's block can be rough, but no need to hurry or rush an update. I sometimes lose the muse and don't find it again for a week or two or in some instances a few months lol :)

But anyways many congratulations on being this week's Writer of the Week!

Writer's block was probably a bad choice of word/phrase. Seeing that reading 7000+ pages and writing a giant paper on the actual Byzantine Empire can be draining, especially when you re-write/edit that thing so much - I more or less just have little motivation or enthusiasm to continue writing for this particular AAR for the time being. I generally like to say a few updates ahead on my files than with the AAR just in case these things happen, that way I still have a week or two of updates without having to need to sit down and write one. I just have a feeling, as I'm approaching that "buffer" that once I post through, I just don't know when my faculties will return to normal and allow for a high-quality of writing and prose which is naturally the main focus for this AAR (seeing that I haven't written an actual update with great joy for about 3 weeks now). All of this coming right at the close of the planned "Volume 1" and the beginning for "Volume 2."

On that note, I like to always keep my first completed draft on file to compare how much it changes with the final version. In this case, I completely re-wrote the paper from my first version to the fourth version I'm on (people seem to forget, writing paper's is not a one-time deal, they are a work in progress). One of my research papers took 1 1/2 years to complete! :glare: