The day the Byzantine emperor tried to sell his titles

[Cervantes]

1453 is the date of a sad year for all of us roman and byzantine fans out there, for it represents the day that Constantinople fell to the Ottomans. The Emperor died at the hands of their army, and thus the story of the Byzantines ended.

But did it?

Andreas Palaiologos was the eldest son of Thomas Palaiologos, brother of the emperor. Although Thomas died on 1465, his son would still live on to the year 1502. He tried to reconquer the Byzantine Empire, even to the extent of organizing an army. He tried to strike the ottomans while they were in some internal conflicts, but the opportunity slipt by. Afterwards, Andreas tried to sell his titles over the Byzantine Empire to rulers of Europe. He almost had an agreement with Charles VIII of France, although it didn't come to fruition due to him dying before reaching it. In the end, it was the Catholic Kings (Kings of Castille and Aragon) who bought it.

Could this be represented in the game?

I believe it could very well be. The same way that the Byzantine scholars fleeing is an event that only activates after their empire has fallen, there could be an event for which Andreas Palaiologos seeks the support of catholic or orthodox kingdoms (not republics, thus making ineligible Venice for reasons known to all of us) that have set the Ottomans as a rival and/or are a great power.

Then, three options could open up.

> "Let us be Emperors of the East, too" - An option to buy Thomas' titles, giving permanent claims to the provinces with a BYZ core + Constantinople. Maybe 500 ducats would be a good enough price? I am not sure about this.
> "Eastern Europe interests us none, bet let us welcome this poor man" - An option to keep Thomas for the country, making him an advisor. He was, in fact, trying to not die poor, so this may end his quest. Considering his lineage, I believe he could very well a Dip. Rep. advisor (greek culture, orthodox).
> "[COUNTRY.NAME] will not fight the Ottoman Empire for this cause" - An option to make Thomas leave, making another country eligible for the event. This could give a small prestige hit (-5), as the country is refusing a casus belli against their rival.

Upon conquering the byzantines land, I believe it would be appropiate to have an event to allow for tag switch. After all, your ruler is both the king/queen of X and emperor of byzantium, and isn't always better to be emperor?

> "Let us embrace our new identity" - Country and ideas change to BYZ. Culture changes to Greek, giving unrest to the culture that had been dominant up until now.
> "We shall now be Emperors of Byzantium first, [KING.TITLE] of [COUNTRY.NAME] after" - Country changes to BYZ (ideas only if chosen afterwards).
> "These are just our new lands. Our title has other uses" - I think this would allow for the Country to make use of the BYZ title in other ways, thus increasing yearly prestige by 1 until the monarch's death.

Now, should this be implemented in the game?

The fight for the legitimacy and the heritage of the romans had already started with the HRE, and later it would continue with Russia proclaiming itself as Third Rome. It is my opinion that this is believable enough to implement it to the game if only for historical reasons.

There are game reasons for it as well. This event would give a major power in Europe a casus belli good enough for them to fight the Ottomans, which would be interesting both for a player in the region and an Ottoman Empire player. The first would have new reasons to fight a rival that might otherwise be left to grow, and the latter would have to be careful not to leave their back open for an attack. And if you're watching from the safety of a non-eligible country, you might see the world burn! That is always fun.

To sum up, there was a day the "de jure" byzantine emperor tried to sell his titles. I believe that is a feature that can and should be implemented into EUIV, and I personally would enjoy it a lot!

 

[Al Davoodi]

Yeah and could get interesting tied with if the byzantine princess somehow marries a russian ruler. So the 2nd rome 3rd rome stuff could be interesting. It could even more interesting if the event you suggest fire for an orthodox realm. I thing that really could trigger a 2nd dynamic. Maybe later the dynasty marries also the last Byzantine princess, so the prestige boost grows.

I could see that other orthdox realms could get a prestige hit and something events and situations that simulates a race to glory to reconquecer byzantium. In the end similar to your idea but i think for orthodox realms there should be more dynamics and "political" "side effects".

 

[Cervantes]

Yeah and could get interesting tied with if the byzantine princess somehow marries a russian ruler. So the 2nd rome 3rd rome stuff could be interesting. It could even more interesting if the event you suggest fire for an orthodox realm. I thing that really could trigger a 2nd dynamic. Maybe later the dynasty marries also the last Byzantine princess, so the prestige boost grows.

I could see that other orthdox realms could get a prestige hit and something events and situations that simulates a race to glory to reconquecer byzantium. In the end similar to your idea but i think for orthodox realms there should be more dynamics and "political" "side effects".

I do not dislike your idea, but, would any country but Moscovy receive the event? I believe it wouldn't, since the idea is that Andreas Palaiologos is trying to sell his titles to someone who might have the power to reclaim the Byzantine's lands - not that Theodoro or Wallachia couldn't, it's just that this poor man can not know what players manage to do. Therefore, I am not sure if there could be any other country for Moscovy to race against... Although the idea is cool! You are fighting for the legitimacy of Rome, after all.
I do not know how it could be synergized with Moscovy's event of the patriarchy of Moskva. If they don't go independent, they already get claims on the area... although if I recall correctly it is on bulgarian lands and the thrace area, so it could synergize well. If the idea is liked, maybe there could be other events tied up to this one! That would be really cool.

 

[balmung60]

1453 is the date of a sad year for all of us roman and byzantine fans out there, for it represents the day that Constantinople fell to the Ottomans. The Emperor died at the hands of their army, and thus the story of the Byzantines ended.

But did it?

Andreas Palaiologos was the eldest son of Thomas Palaiologos, brother of the emperor. Although Thomas died on 1465, his son would still live on to the year 1502. He tried to reconquer the Byzantine Empire, even to the extent of organizing an army. He tried to strike the ottomans while they were in some internal conflicts, but the opportunity slipt by. Afterwards, Andreas tried to sell his titles over the Byzantine Empire to rulers of Europe. He almost had an agreement with Charles VIII of France, although it didn't come to fruition due to him dying before reaching it. In the end, it was the Catholic Kings (Kings of Castille and Aragon) who bought it.

Could this be represented in the game?

I believe it could very well be. The same way that the Byzantine scholars fleeing is an event that only activates after their empire has fallen, there could be an event for which Andreas Palaiologos seeks the support of catholic or orthodox kingdoms (not republics, thus making ineligible Venice for reasons known to all of us) that have set the Ottomans as a rival and/or are a great power.

Then, three options could open up.

> "Let us be Emperors of the East, too" - An option to buy Thomas' titles, giving permanent claims to the provinces with a BYZ core + Constantinople. Maybe 500 ducats would be a good enough price? I am not sure about this.
> "Eastern Europe interests us none, bet let us welcome this poor man" - An option to keep Thomas for the country, making him an advisor. He was, in fact, trying to not die poor, so this may end his quest. Considering his lineage, I believe he could very well a Dip. Rep. advisor (greek culture, orthodox).
> "[COUNTRY.NAME] will not fight the Ottoman Empire for this cause" - An option to make Thomas leave, making another country eligible for the event. This could give a small prestige hit (-5), as the country is refusing a casus belli against their rival.

Upon conquering the byzantines land, I believe it would be appropiate to have an event to allow for tag switch. After all, your ruler is both the king/queen of X and emperor of byzantium, and isn't always better to be emperor?

> "Let us embrace our new identity" - Country and ideas change to BYZ. Culture changes to Greek, giving unrest to the culture that had been dominant up until now.
> "We shall now be Emperors of Byzantium first, [KING.TITLE] of [COUNTRY.NAME] after" - Country changes to BYZ (ideas only if chosen afterwards).
> "These are just our new lands. Our title has other uses" - I think this would allow for the Country to make use of the BYZ title in other ways, thus increasing yearly prestige by 1 until the monarch's death.

Now, should this be implemented in the game?

The fight for the legitimacy and the heritage of the romans had already started with the HRE, and later it would continue with Russia proclaiming itself as Third Rome. It is my opinion that this is believable enough to implement it to the game if only for historical reasons.

There are game reasons for it as well. This event would give a major power in Europe a casus belli good enough for them to fight the Ottomans, which would be interesting both for a player in the region and an Ottoman Empire player. The first would have new reasons to fight a rival that might otherwise be left to grow, and the latter would have to be careful not to leave their back open for an attack. And if you're watching from the safety of a non-eligible country, you might see the world burn! That is always fun.

To sum up, there was a day the "de jure" byzantine emperor tried to sell his titles. I believe that is a feature that can and should be implemented into EUIV, and I personally would enjoy it a lot!

I would propose a fourth option in that event - "we are both King of [TAG] and Emperor of Rome/Byzantium, but our realms shall remain separate" (basically, asserting that it was your ruler's claim and not the country's that was pushed), which releases all held Byzantine cores as a junior partner in a personal union.