The dark side of the rivalry system.

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MaXimillion

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Yeah, the challenge is making the AI break alliances/change rivalries in a sensible fashion. People rage quite enough that the AI dares have its own priorities even when it's actually being sensible about it.
How about taking a look at missions like the one to take a province in India? Your game-long ally will break all treaties with you just because they need to take one province in India and you happen to have one there, even though the others are free for them to take without betraying you.
 

Brent15

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Yeah, the challenge is making the AI break alliances/change rivalries in a sensible fashion. People rage quite enough that the AI dares have its own priorities even when it's actually being sensible about it.

I'm not one of those players. Seeing the AI make good decisions in its own interest keeps the game interesting.

Obviously, breaking an alliance for trivial reasons or a random mission would be frustrating.
 

TheMeInTeam

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I'm not one of those players. Seeing the AI make good decisions in its own interest keeps the game interesting.

Obviously, breaking an alliance for trivial reasons or a random mission would be frustrating.

I see more people rage over alliance breaking on India/Spice islands missions than in general. Those two are particularly vexing since one can *easily* accomplish them without fighting their ally. The only other time AI breaks alliances that bother me is when doing so exposes it to its enemies because it literally has no alternative ally. That's just poor play.

Normally, when you snag some of Delhi you expect Timmy to drop you, same with **** blocking Ottomans with Syria (though I've been able to hold that alliance longer despite doing that, I don't expect it to last once I have a presence in their mission region). Taking Savoy from France (or being Savoy) is similarly right in its sphere; these outcomes are expected.

A solid alliance breaking over India when both can easily complete the mission without fighting is just stupid. A weakened, battered France dropping a 180 force limit Frankfurt not long after eating a 5 nation dogpile that it lost to is stupid (and vastly accelerated its demise). That's the kind of stuff the AI needs to stop doing.
 

Qemarar

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What bothers me about the rivalry system is the huge negative relations modifiers with almost no way of boosting. I've had a game of Great Britain where France had beaten me, Spain, and Burgundy in several wars and has gotten to the point where it's tied with Russia for the largest world army.

I'd at least expect Burgundy help me stop France, but nope.

France is literally their biggest threat for survival and they'd rather keep hating me, one of their greatest assets in helping take down France.

0V0CQ5E.jpg



France is even in the HRE, someone's gotta stop them.
 

Zones

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Yep, not a fan of the rivalry system at all. Also not a fan of the desired province system. Been an ally with Sweden as Brandenburg for nearly 100 years and we have helped each other fight off Muscovy and Lithuania and then all the sudden with no warning they decide they want a single province of mine (5 base tax one at that) and get a -60 relations hit instantly go hostile and break alliance with me despite our relations previously being 180 something. Rival status follows shortly after.

There isn't really a rational to it because by breaking that alliance now there is no one in Europe left who can fight the Ottomans who is magically allied to Crimea, Timurids, and Uzbeck who conquered all the other hordes. If I were playing Ottomans they all would have rivaled me due to desired provinces by now, but nope not to the AI!
 

Squirrelloid

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Yep, not a fan of the rivalry system at all. Also not a fan of the desired province system. Been an ally with Sweden as Brandenburg for nearly 100 years and we have helped each other fight off Muscovy and Lithuania and then all the sudden with no warning they decide they want a single province of mine (5 base tax one at that) and get a -60 relations hit instantly go hostile and break alliance with me despite our relations previously being 180 something. Rival status follows shortly after.

There isn't really a rational to it because by breaking that alliance now there is no one in Europe left who can fight the Ottomans who is magically allied to Crimea, Timurids, and Uzbeck who conquered all the other hordes. If I were playing Ottomans they all would have rivaled me due to desired provinces by now, but nope not to the AI!

Part of that is due to Hordes not being allowed to rival non-hordes (and vice-versa) in 1.7. It's a really dumb change, and it totally screws up asia.
 

Thrake

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That would be because European Christians in Europe basically never care about countries that conquer Arab Muslims in Asia and Africa.

I'm not expecting for a coalition of Muslim and Christian against the Ottomans when they destroy the Mamlukes, but rather things like Mamlukes plus some Muslims (Aq Qoyunlu, the minors of the Arabian Peninsula,...). I understand that Muscovy gets no coalition because no one cares about Orthodox when it annexes Novgorod, but Muslim nations are plenty, and there's quite a lot in the Mamluke's culture group (Turko semitic must be the bigger culture group).
 

Sir Tornado

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But I wouldn't want to scrap the rival system completely. While I find it way too static in its current iteration, there is historical precedent for long-term rivalries. Eg: England/Britain and France, or France and Spain, or France and Austria, or Bahmanis and Vijayanagar, or Persia and the Mughals, etc. What I would like is a timer for rivalries, probably based on the magnitude of the conflict in the ambitions/missions. If the ambitions are more regional in their character, then the rivalry exists for around 30 years (arbitrary number, but can be tweaked to get the right balance). For larger ambitions, like Britain's ambition of preventing a hegemon on the continent, the rivalry with France could last 200 years (again, arbitrary and requires tweaking). And the end of the rivalry can lead to a period of cool-down, probably designed as a ticking opinion-modifier titled "Former Rival" last for a couple of years.

Britain and France weren't rivals just for the heck of it. If we were to put this rivalry in the context of your and mine idea, it would go along this route:

1) England has the ambition to form a PU with France; hence Britain and France become rivals
2) England and France then both have ambition to form colonial empire; hence they become rivals
3) Britain and France both seek to dominate European diplomacy and become the preeminent European powers; hence they remain rivals.

However, then the following happened: Prussia defeats France and becomes the dominant power in Europe.

Now, England's principle rival in Europe is Germany, not France... Now, Germany's ambitions now become "to have the best army and navy in Europe and expand colonial empire". This puts them directly in conflict with both Britain and France. So, Britain and France now suddenly become Friends driven by the common ambition to bring Germany down.

Under EU4 rules, or, for that matter, any rules in which countries choose to become rivals by choice (rather than necessity) such a Diplomatic realignment will never take place).

France - Austria rivalry can, similarly be explained; up until Austria remained the most powerful German state, they were France's rivals. The moment Prussia defeated Austria in the War of Austrian succession and took over Austria's status as the most formidable German military power; it was Prussia who became France's rival, and Austria allied with them; just like that.

So, what I would like to see, is that the system be changed from nations designating other countries as their rivals to nations designating their short/medium/long term goals and ambitions (how many can depend on the size of the country, options, game balance etc) and rivals being generated for the country automatically depending upon their selected ambitions (and the ambitions of other countries which affect them)

The Power Projection system can be woven into this -- the more ambitions you achieve -- or the more you progress towards your long term ambitions, the more PP points you will get. This totally makes sense, because by definition, you will achieve your objectives directly at the expense of your rivals.

This will also allow for changing rivals based on changed political circumstances without you changing your ambitions. For example, if I am playing England and one of my ambitions is to dominate the Eastern America colonial zone, and Portugal is the other country in that colonial zone; they would become my rival. However, if they go to war against Netherlands and Netherlands manages to takeover all their provinces in the Eastern American Colonial zone, my rivals would automaticallly change from Portugal to Netherlands because now it makes no sense for me to be anti-Portuguese, we have no quarrel.
 
Last edited:

Zones

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I'm not expecting for a coalition of Muslim and Christian against the Ottomans when they destroy the Mamlukes, but rather things like Mamlukes plus some Muslims (Aq Qoyunlu, the minors of the Arabian Peninsula,...). I understand that Muscovy gets no coalition because no one cares about Orthodox when it annexes Novgorod, but Muslim nations are plenty, and there's quite a lot in the Mamluke's culture group (Turko semitic must be the bigger culture group).

Once yemen joined the mamluks coalition when I was playing Ottomans, worked out in my favor too. Was instantly able to reengage the Mamluks. But yea, the territory there is pretty spread out which means they don't really care about provinces that are distant from them. I believe with the reworks from AoW this may help a bit in this regard.
 

crusaderking

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How about something where rivals that are at peace for long enough slowly stop being rivals? Otherwise something for them simply not bothering each other long enough that the rivalry grows cold and eventually fades.

Yeah, that could work too.

Britain and France weren't rivals just for the heck of it. If we were to put this rivalry in the context of your and mine idea, it would go along this route:

1) England has the ambition to form a PU with France; hence Britain and France become rivals
2) England and France then both have ambition to form colonial empire; hence they become rivals
3) Britain and France both seek to dominate European diplomacy and become the preeminent European powers; hence they remain rivals.

However, then the following happened: Prussia defeats France and becomes the dominant power in Europe.

Now, England's principle rival in Europe is Germany, not France... Now, Germany's ambitions now become "to have the best army and navy in Europe and expand colonial empire". This puts them directly in conflict with both Britain and France. So, Britain and France now suddenly become Friends driven by the common ambition to bring Germany down.

Under EU4 rules, or, for that matter, any rules in which countries choose to become rivals by choice (rather than necessity) such a Diplomatic realignment will never take place).

France - Austria rivalry can, similarly be explained; up until Austria remained the most powerful German state, they were France's rivals. The moment Prussia defeated Austria in the War of Austrian succession and took over Austria's status as the most formidable German military power; it was Prussia who became France's rival, and Austria allied with them; just like that.

So, what I would like to see, is that the system be changed from nations designating other countries as their rivals to nations designating their short/medium/long term goals and ambitions (how many can depend on the size of the country, options, game balance etc) and rivals being generated for the country automatically depending upon their selected ambitions (and the ambitions of other countries which affect them)

The Power Projection system can be woven into this -- the more ambitions you achieve -- or the more you progress towards your long term ambitions, the more PP points you will get. This totally makes sense, because by definition, you will achieve your objectives directly at the expense of your rivals.

This will also allow for changing rivals based on changed political circumstances without you changing your ambitions. For example, if I am playing England and one of my ambitions is to dominate the Eastern America colonial zone, and Portugal is the other country in that colonial zone; they would become my rival. However, if they go to war against Netherlands and Netherlands manages to takeover all their provinces in the Eastern American Colonial zone, my rivals would automaticallly change from Portugal to Netherlands because now it makes no sense for me to be anti-Portuguese, we have no quarrel.

Fully agree with you on everything.

Also, while we are discussing the rivalry system and its eccentricities, I want to comment on the fact that OPMs have three rivals too, which I felt doesn't make a lot of sense. IMHO, larger powers should have more rivals, while the smaller you are, you will have more countries from which you can choose your rival, but you should be allowed to choose only one rival if you are an OPM, and two rivals if you have more than 4 provinces, but less than 8 (or something like that).
 
Last edited:

ahyangyi

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Yeah, that could work too.



Full agree with you on everything.

Also, while we are discussing the rivalry system and its eccentricities, I want to comment on the fact that OPMs have three rivals too, which I felt doesn't make a lot of sense. IMHO, larger powers should have more rivals, while the smaller you are, you will have more countries from which you can choose your rival, but you should be allowed to choose only one rival if you are an OPM, and two rivals if you have more than 4 provinces, but less than 8 (or something like that).

Fully agree with both of you.
 

nOxr

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A lot of very good suggestions in this thread!

What about introducing the possibility to select an Archrival? You would only be able so select one Archrival and it would be a rivalty that takas precedence over everything else. Two AI countries that share the same Archrival would seek to ally each other even if they are rivals themselves. To not act against your Archrival would make you lose PP.
 

Squirrelloid

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A lot of very good suggestions in this thread!

What about introducing the possibility to select an Archrival? You would only be able so select one Archrival and it would be a rivalty that takas precedence over everything else. Two AI countries that share the same Archrival would seek to ally each other even if they are rivals themselves. To not act against your Archrival would make you lose PP.

You forgot to add uber- to the front of that. xp

But seriously, that's kinda dumb. It would defeat the point of the proposed system (which is to allow rivalries to dynamically change because of changing geopolitics).
 

nOxr

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You forgot to add uber- to the front of that. xp

But seriously, that's kinda dumb. It would defeat the point of the proposed system (which is to allow rivalries to dynamically change because of changing geopolitics).


The suggestion was in relation to the existing rivalry system. It would work in the same way though in a dynamically system except that it would be assigned instead of seleceted.

The benefit is that the AI would get a way to separate between important rivalries and petty rivalries. And not let petty rivalries get in the way of beating the Archrival.
 

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Wiz,
I have an idea with regard to how to deal with the never-ending rivalries. What if the AI would only consider un-rivaling someone if opinion was positive in both directions? This would mean each nation has recognized a strategic benefit in improving relations with the other and has allocated a diplomat to doing so. It would take time with the -75 relations hit from rivalry, so there would be a buffer there if the situation changed (avoids the AI changing at the drop of the hat as you mentioned). All that would need to be added would be the AI decision to start improving relations if the strategic situation changed and to automatically, or maybe based on more TBD conditions as well, de-rival as soon as relations were positive in both directions. I'm thinking this might be a simple way to deal with it but I could be missing other complications. If the time to improve relations isn't enough buffer, maybe a more complicated counter of some sort could be used. For example, if it's a good idea to de-rival this nation start a counter. If it's still a good idea in 3 years do it.
 

lucaluca

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Wiz,
I have an idea with regard to how to deal with the never-ending rivalries. What if the AI would only consider un-rivaling someone if opinion was positive in both directions? This would mean each nation has recognized a strategic benefit in improving relations with the other and has allocated a diplomat to doing so. It would take time with the -75 relations hit from rivalry, so there would be a buffer there if the situation changed (avoids the AI changing at the drop of the hat as you mentioned). All that would need to be added would be the AI decision to start improving relations if the strategic situation changed and to automatically, or maybe based on more TBD conditions as well, de-rival as soon as relations were positive in both directions. I'm thinking this might be a simple way to deal with it but I could be missing other complications. If the time to improve relations isn't enough buffer, maybe a more complicated counter of some sort could be used. For example, if it's a good idea to de-rival this nation start a counter. If it's still a good idea in 3 years do it.

Honestly I would revert back to the old rival system, changing rivals should be fast. Then since rivals also give major bonues, there should be a cost, or maybe reduce the bonus and reduce the cost, or make rivals a trade thing only, based mainly on piracy