The Current Phase A Blues For the Axis...
- Thread starter Grimreapo
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We've got 3 maps and 6 divisions. There's loads more to come! I'm still hopeful.
At least in EE and ALB Eugen were fairly good at balancing factions. I'm not sure about RD, didn't really play it.
Wise move. :ninja:
What I worried most about the Wargames were always the game mechanisms. Somehow they were as full of holes as Swiss cheese. They look much much better so far in SD.
I really really hate current balance, but it's fixable. All the core issues in wargame were not.
Hence, I'm optimistic.
What I worried most about the Wargames were always the game mechanisms. Somehow they were as full of holes as Swiss cheese. They look much much better so far in SD.
I really really hate current balance, but it's fixable. All the core issues in wargame were not.
Hence, I'm optimistic.
My previous balance experience comes from CoH2 and I really hope it doesn't turn out like that.
You condemn us so fast...
We only delivered one balance patch so far so I don't consider ourselves out of options.
What are the drastic changes you're talking about because there is no balance problem we're facing at the moment that I consider impossible to solve with simple methods.
It's just a matter of time because we prefer to move slower rather than changing things back and forth from one patch to another.
Gave your reasoning for this please. How are Axis units underpowered.
Do not take pak36 against 2div - the only thing it can kill is the t30, and barely. If you have to take an ATG, at least use the Pak40- at least has HE rounds and can actually kill what it shoots.
In that match up, always take the 210mm offmap spotter. It provides 100000% annihilation of pesky ranger mortars and m1919 strongpoints. Alternatively, invest in the dual-purpose howitzer- almost as capable at AT as a pak38 while also providing anti-infantry/counter-battery support.
2div's dark secret is that they are brittle. Their pretty much OP infantry is not available in large enough quantities. If they suffer high losses they are forced to rely on their highly inferior tanks, which simply cant get the job done.
EDIT
Watched all of phase A. Luftlande player divided their forces into roughly equal companies, all of which had forces to resist light attack but were incapable of offensive action themselves. The company that fought the 2div players offensive group was completely not up to the task at hand, being out-equipped, out-pointed, and out of position by the initial thrust. The error was compounded by bleeding units in horribly unequal attempts to delay the allied players advance, such as getting their initial french tank destroyed for no reason at all. They were never able to concentrate enough forces or capability to even make a plausible attempt at stopping the main 2div concentration. Meanwhile, the axis overcommitment to the rest of the map was incapable of pushing the m1919s out of position, and poor choices burned away the only place where the axis player had an advantage - the reinforcing french tank advanced blindly into bazooka fire in the middle of open terrain.
TLDR- its hard to take a game seriously when 2 pak36 advance down an open road to engage a sherman
In that match up, always take the 210mm offmap spotter. It provides 100000% annihilation of pesky ranger mortars and m1919 strongpoints. Alternatively, invest in the dual-purpose howitzer- almost as capable at AT as a pak38 while also providing anti-infantry/counter-battery support.
2div's dark secret is that they are brittle. Their pretty much OP infantry is not available in large enough quantities. If they suffer high losses they are forced to rely on their highly inferior tanks, which simply cant get the job done.
EDIT
Watched all of phase A. Luftlande player divided their forces into roughly equal companies, all of which had forces to resist light attack but were incapable of offensive action themselves. The company that fought the 2div players offensive group was completely not up to the task at hand, being out-equipped, out-pointed, and out of position by the initial thrust. The error was compounded by bleeding units in horribly unequal attempts to delay the allied players advance, such as getting their initial french tank destroyed for no reason at all. They were never able to concentrate enough forces or capability to even make a plausible attempt at stopping the main 2div concentration. Meanwhile, the axis overcommitment to the rest of the map was incapable of pushing the m1919s out of position, and poor choices burned away the only place where the axis player had an advantage - the reinforcing french tank advanced blindly into bazooka fire in the middle of open terrain.
TLDR- its hard to take a game seriously when 2 pak36 advance down an open road to engage a sherman
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bad-to-shocking phase A. gimmick Beute Firefly masks how bad 12. SS' is.
only super cheap, overpriced, or overspecialized infantry. axis has nothing like UK/US Rifles for 20 points that they can rely on for phase A. Grenadier* could be molded into something like that. yes the MG-42 would be better than the Bren/BAR for the same price, but we're supposedly not doing direct 1:1 price comparisons this time.
direct fire support is generally weak compared to allies (IG. 18 suffers same fate as AT guns: instant mortar/airstrike and dead)
FlaK 38 20mm shockingly bad, planes tend to be quite slow compared to allied counterparts, its only tank of comparable price/ability to the M4A1 is a glorified bunker (Pz IV J with it's hand cranked turret)
those are some I can think of
You continue to ignore 12 ss support halftracks, 12 ss firefly...
I mentioned 12. SS Firefly in the first line of the post, boyo. The support halftracks are trash compared to AVRE, M7 DD, and MLG T30.
The halftracks are significantly cheaper than any of those options, and you're not even really mentioning the stuarts, which are significantly better than all of those options.
Cheapness only goes so far when you have elite units like the T30 which never miss.
You get one to last the whole of Phase A and the HE rounds just get you killed. Pretty much the first thing you should do with AT guns HE rounds is switch them off. A spotted AT gun is very quickly a dead AT gun.
Really though, you've got very little to work with in this matchup. Your infantry is worse. Your on-map arty is worse (mortar comparison is a bad joke). Your armoured options are worse. Your anti-tank is worse. Even your recon is worse. You have one trick, and thats a 210mm suprise which may/may not work. The other trick is to be the better than the othr guy, and that's naturally fairly unreliable.
I agree current axis decks are quite....awkward in phase A. However we do have 2 phase B/C oriented decks in game at the moment. Luftland has potential, but suffers from relying on AT guns/ISGs in a meta oversaturated with indirect fire. It also has no reliable way to translate any phase A success into mid to late game gains. It falls off a cliff very quickly.
Hopefully we get either of the axis infantry divisions wherever the French get added. Another armored division would be a bit disappointing honestly.
Hopefully we get either of the axis infantry divisions wherever the French get added. Another armored division would be a bit disappointing honestly.
I don't like taking the pak40 for that reason. If there's something i cant defeat immediately with luftlande i'd rather hunker down. There was enormous amount of shot blockers in the push area in the provided replay, highly conducive to defensive tactics.
I cannot agree about the recon. fs-abwehr are directly superior to ranger marauders and everything else seems pretty much pick your poison.
The infantry is a problem. Frankly 2div infantry is just underpriced. Capability-wise luftlande can match it but 2div just gets too much per point. I don't want the game to be pure cost balance, but, yeah...ouch.
and you are just wrong. you can be pushing the entire map with halftracks for the cost of an avre or dd, and get there faster to boot. DD is slow as shit, its really incredible...
I cannot agree about the recon. fs-abwehr are directly superior to ranger marauders and everything else seems pretty much pick your poison.
The infantry is a problem. Frankly 2div infantry is just underpriced. Capability-wise luftlande can match it but 2div just gets too much per point. I don't want the game to be pure cost balance, but, yeah...ouch.
i meant to type cromwell but i had firefly on the mind i guess
and you are just wrong. you can be pushing the entire map with halftracks for the cost of an avre or dd, and get there faster to boot. DD is slow as shit, its really incredible...
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A few of the more obvious points:
1) Infantry. Especially Phase A. It costs more and, while those infantry MGs may work great, most infantry casualties are either at close range, are from arty, or are from vehicles. They also lack vet. I haven't done extensive testing, but rangers support feel more effective than PzGrens and are cheaper. Strosstruppen are nice, but that's the only German infantry squad which actually competes on cost-effectiveness with the allies (except perhaps Ersatztruppen). This isn't fixed in B or C. You do get cheap infantry commanders though, which is nice.
2) Tanks. Especially in Phase A. The super-stug and the firefly are all well and nice, but you only get one. Once it's located, it becomes very hard for it to actually score any kills. The enemy just sits back behind cover in that area and moves forward everywhere else. You're weaker everywhere else because you've spent points on the tank. Allied options are more numerious and often more useful. If you can get SS Panzer rolling they'll have the advantage in later phases, and the other German divisions aren't awful once you get past A.
3) Air power. Especially in Phase A. Allies just get more.
4) Support vehicles. Only SS Panzer get any good ones as Germans. Luftlande get French tanks which are expensive, and not very good. 17 SS get SPW 221s which can do fun things, but only against other vehicles, and SPW 223 command vehicles which are kinda expensive to use as infantry support vehicles due to their command aura. Being able to direct anti-infantry firepower to where it is needed is really useful in A, and allies just do it better than Luftlande/17 SS.
The Germans advantages in A? 12 SS Panzer gets awesome infantry support vehicles. Luftlande get off map arty and spamtruppen. 17 SS get... huh. Come B and C the allied advantage drops, or even turns to Germans, but if you're coming out of A with a worse kill-death ratio and +1 victory point a second ticking in for the other guy, the counter attack is hard. While the Germans get cool stuff from B (hard to crack Panzers, Luftlande air power, nebels), and this cool stuff will often turn the tide somewhat you need time to recover, get the amount of troops on-field back to roughly even, and then take ground. I find I have "comebacks" a lot more with Germans, but it's usually too little too late.
Now - it's worth bearing in mind we have two infantry divisions on allies, and these two divisions are often cited as being the strongest divisions. Germans have no infantry divisions. This may simply just be an issue with the way that infantry divisions are designed: they have cost effecitve infantry and light support, and cost effective infantry and light support wins you Phase A.
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the problem is that only works until your enemy brings an atg or worse a stuart.
as soon as those units show up youre reduced to move at inf speed to not get all your ht blown up.
Dayum @TheDeadlyShoe I wonder why you didn't participate in one of those tournaments to showcase your deep understanding of the meta and how to actually play the axis divisions, to proof everyones consensus wrong who participated that axis is a piece of trash right now in 1v1?