The Cossacks ft. the actual cossacks?

[apsmisk_]

Sup forums,

So I was thinking, considering the title of the expansion and some of the new features, if anything will actually change in the eastern parts of Europe? I'm talking about the various nations in and around the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth like Kiev and especially Zaporozhie. When you release the latter whilst playing Lithuania it pops up as a feudal monarchy and can also be encountered in a later bookmark as a Tribal Democracy (though accurately labeled as a Hetmanate). Will they actually get any flavour or a less primitive form of government or are they - despite the focus of the expansion - doomed to stay boring and horribly average at the art of looting?

PS. The nations that employed the cossacks got far more cavalry combat ability than the actual cossack state. Ain't that a bummer.

 

[gdj]

PS. The nations that employed the cossacks got far more cavalry combat ability than the actual cossack state. Ain't that a bummer.

Oh, i suspect that at least this point will change. I presume that the estates system implies that a cossack nation would have a total dominance of the cossack estate, which should presumably give a lot of cav combat ability. Well, maybe.

 

[giant_sloth]

Will they actually get any flavour or a less primitive form of government or are they - despite the focus of the expansion - doomed to stay boring and horribly average at the art of looting?

Well, primitive government can be reformed into a normal one. As for flavor, as far as I understand, they'll get new unit models. Beyond that, I don't know, though doubt devs will add stuff.

PS. The nations that employed the cossacks got far more cavalry combat ability than the actual cossack state. Ain't that a bummer.

Yeah, once again, maybe now you know cossacks as cavalry, but back in a time when they had their own state, they were mostly infantry. They even had to ally Crimea because they needed their cavalry at one point.

 

[Johan]

PS. The nations that employed the cossacks got far more cavalry combat ability than the actual cossack state. Ain't that a bummer.

Winged Hussars were not cossacks, and heavy cavalry and light cavalry is not directly comparable.

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

Yeah, once again, maybe now you know cossacks as cavalry, but back in a time when they had their own state, they were mostly infantry. They even had to ally Crimea because they needed their cavalry at one point.

Pretty much this. I don't understand why do people associate the Cossacks with cavalry. Maybe it's because of the Don Cossacks, but I know really little about them so I can't tell. Meanwhile, Zaporozhian ones were definitely infantry focused.

 

[Hustred]

Zaporozhian army was infantry focused, but forces that cossacks provided to Poland was mostly light cavalry "Reestroviy cossacky" (registered cossacks)

 

[Closet Skeleton]

Will they actually get any flavour or a less primitive form of government or are they

'Primitive' in game terms due to tech tree placement, nothing more. Giving them a higher tech tree kind of government just to make them equal with their eastern tech neighbours isn't adding flavour and giving them a unique government when the only unique thing about them is their presence in Europe is unnecessary favouritism.

Tribal democracy fits the early Hetmanate better than noble republic and tribal isn't any more primitive than the other tribal states around like Crimea which had some of the best scholarly centres in the Islamic world.

Tribal states have spent just as much time developing as any other kind of state. They're just adapted to their environment. The Cossacks left a more organised state to develop a new society, this isn't unusual in how democratic societies form. The tribes of North America did pretty much the same thing to escape the tyranny of Cahokia. 'Primitive' is only from the perspective of outsiders, it might as well be a synonym for foreign.

edit: The post-Khmelnytsky Uprising state should probably be a republic, its the earlier Zaporozhian sich that makes sense as a tribal democracy

 

[apsmisk_]

Winged Hussars were not cossacks, and heavy cavalry and light cavalry is not directly comparable.

Fair enough!

 

[giant_sloth]

The problem with the cossack state(s) in game is that after ~1650, there should be two of them: Cossack Hetmanate (Hetmanshchyna) and Zaporizhian Sich (Viisko Zaporozke Nyzove). The letter is in game.

To put it plainly, Hetmanate was the state of registered cossacks, while Zaporozhia was the state of unregistered ones. Correspondingly, Hetmanate should be noble republic (as it was heavily influenced by Commonwealth political thought) and Zaporozhia should be, well, as it is I guess.

In game, Hetmanate is not present. It's territory is directly owned by Russia, while it should be a vassal of Russia till 1764 or so. But! It's hetmans ARE present in game, as rulers of Zaporozhia! Makes no sense. Zaporozhia was "ruled" by kosh otaman, not hetman.

I really appreciate all the dev attention Zaporozhia gets (cool ideas + you are called hetman, which is ok until mid XVII), but there's still room for improvement

 

[Isaios]

'Primitive' is only from the perspective of outsiders, it might as well be a synonym for foreign.

Beautiful.

Don't forget to be awesome.

 

[Chief of Staff]

Winged Hussars were not cossacks, and heavy cavalry and light cavalry is not directly comparable.

You know what would be nice? Split up Cavalry into Heavy Cavalry and Light Cavalry unit types. Same goes for infantry and artillery. Light Cavalry could provide reconnaissance while Heavy Cavalry does brunt of cavalry fighting or something. Honestly, mix of just three unit types seem a bit bland to me. I feel we could have more interesting mix. But I'll stop there, as this should go into Suggestions.

 

[mursolini]

The problem with the cossack state(s) in game is that after ~1650, there should be two of them: Cossack Hetmanate (Hetmanshchyna) and Zaporizhian Sich (Viisko Zaporozke Nyzove). The letter is in game.

To put it plainly, Hetmanate was the state of registered cossacks, while Zaporozhia was the state of unregistered ones. Correspondingly, Hetmanate should be noble republic (as it was heavily influenced by Commonwealth political thought) and Zaporozhia should be, well, as it is I guess.

In game, Hetmanate is not present. It's territory is directly owned by Russia, while it should be a vassal of Russia till 1764 or so. But! It's hetmans ARE present in game, as rulers of Zaporozhia! Makes no sense. Zaporozhia was "ruled" by kosh otaman, not hetman.

I really appreciate all the dev attention Zaporozhia gets (cool ideas + you are called hetman, which is ok until mid XVII), but there's still room for improvement

Indeed, one would expect the region would get fixes for expancion themed on this region!

Hetmanate was even ally of Sweden during the war, and in Battle of Poltava, Cossacs fought on both sides.

 

[Arinsar]

Winged Hussars were rich noblemen (retinue and horses costed a lot) most of them ever fielded was around 8000 in one battle.