The Cossacks Feature Stream 1500 CET 20th November

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Magnificent Genius

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I like all the diplomacy improvements. Very nice. One of my biggest problems in previous versions when playing as Muscovy, for instance, was wanting to take some of the Livonian Order, and feed it to Pskov, and vassalize the rest, but Pskov didn't have a claim. If I understand this stream right, if I set my opinion of a nation that borders a vassal of mine to hostile, they will fabricate claims. That is awesome.
 

loup99

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To clarify, Universities are not changing in 1.14. We forgot they already gave +1 building slot in 1.13
But what about the shuffle?
 

TheDungen

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But what about the shuffle?
Another building slot from universities wouldn't solve that. Just make the shuffle even more important.
 

Quaade

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You have a seriously skewed perspective on scandinavian history.

By citing history as it happened? Danish were elective monarchy, the treaty of Kalmar as it was written, the succession and disputes over them... I agreed the reasons could speculative, but many of your arguments are historical wrong or doesn´t take into account of what transpired prior or under. So pardon me for having a "skewed" perspective when looking at things objectively and not arguing that historical things like a treaty and succession laws are not like they are known.

Denmark went away from elective monarchy in ca. 1700, which were roughly 100 years after Sweden...

Language is NOT the same thing as culture, it's just one aspect and one that is fairly unreliable because national romanticism put so value into it. If you really want to track cultural kinship look at something that has seen less meddling, I'd advise cusine (a simple thing like what kind of bread was traditionally baked in a region will tell you far more about that people and who they interacted with intermarried with and traded with than language). When you do that you find that the cultural spheres are linked by the seas that the people sailed on. Which places most of sweden in the baltic sphere where denmark and norway end up in the north sea sphere, they are in many ways more similiar to the brittish than they are to the swedish. While sweden aside from language have much much more in common with Finland than with any other nordic country. Hence why the idea of scandinavia that english speakers seems to be so mindlocked into is counterintuitive becuase that's not how the nordics fit together.
You also find some other fascinating things for an example scanian is not a mix of swedish and danish but the last shred of a far older culture separate from both, swedish historian dick harrison actually wrote a book on the subject.
While aside from language western sweden has far more in common with norway and even the brittish than the rest of sweden.

The buildings were similar, the language were similar, their heritage were similar, their customs were similar, their genes are more similar than fins too (please note a say similar, not equal). The whole history since and during the vikings were intertwined both political, cultural and historical to each other and claims on each three kingdoms were often made at different times also supporting the association with each other.

Even the swedes I know have shared this view that we have more in common, apart from the obvious rivalry that have grown over into football. The rise of recent speculation of a union again like the Kalmar that began just after WW2 and began as the nordic council, also suggest that they are more similar as do most historians recoignize the historical and cultural similarities. Many of the laws are similar and some of the laws even have joint preparations with at least Sweden, Norway and Denmark which makes many of our laws similar. And then there is the scandinavism that were formed in the 19th that was based on the beliefs based on the common ethnic, linguistic, political and cultural heritage of the Scandinavian countries of Denmark, Sweden and Norway.

Yes these things are not by themselves proof of the similarities, but the sheer amount of these things are a heavy indicator at least. And I disagree that cultural spheres are only linked by the seas, since the three nations relied and intertwined heavily with each other, in part due to their heritage and common culture which made things a lot easier.

Again, you are welcome to sent in private :)
 

Promanco

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The exception that makes the rule. Outside of europe the naming conventions are diffrent than in europe. But in the nations who descend from the persian and egyptian empires (the middleast and europe) there are fairly few even there.
Stop changing the Goal Post, Naples proves your point wrong there was Kingdoms name after cities.
 
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TheDungen

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By citing history as it happened? Danish were elective monarchy, the treaty of Kalmar as it was written, the succession and disputes over them... I agreed the reasons could speculative, but many of your arguments are historical wrong or doesn´t take into account of what transpired prior or under. So pardon me for having a "skewed" perspective when looking at things objectively and not arguing that historical things like a treaty and succession laws are not like they are known.

Denmark went away from elective monarchy in ca. 1700, which were roughly 100 years after Sweden...



The buildings were similar, the language were similar, their heritage were similar, their customs were similar, their genes are more similar than fins too (please note a say similar, not equal). The whole history since and during the vikings were intertwined both political, cultural and historical to each other and claims on each three kingdoms were often made at different times also supporting the association with each other.

Even the swedes I know have shared this view that we have more in common, apart from the obvious rivalry that have grown over into football. The rise of recent speculation of a union again like the Kalmar that began just after WW2 and began as the nordic council, also suggest that they are more similar as do most historians recoignize the historical and cultural similarities. Many of the laws are similar and some of the laws even have joint preparations with at least Sweden, Norway and Denmark which makes many of our laws similar. And then there is the scandinavism that were formed in the 19th that was based on the beliefs based on the common ethnic, linguistic, political and cultural heritage of the Scandinavian countries of Denmark, Sweden and Norway.

Yes these things are not by themselves proof of the similarities, but the sheer amount of these things are a heavy indicator at least. And I disagree that cultural spheres are only linked by the seas, since the three nations relied and intertwined heavily with each other, in part due to their heritage and common culture which made things a lot easier.

Again, you are welcome to sent in private :)
The vikings had been gone for 400 years when eu4 starts! The people of that day had as much in common with vikings as we do with the witch hunts.
True the germanic nordics have a common origin but they divereged past that point. And just becuase most swedes think that they belong with denmark and norway today doesn't make it true. Yes I have also encountered those sentiments but then I worked for five years at the swedish national maritime museum along with people who actually understood history and they showed me how these common missconceptions were faulty. Sweden is in denial about it's ties to eastern europe, mainly because east has come to have such negative overtones. But truth is even before the failure of the kalmar union sweden traded in the baltic, even the swedish vikings sailed east. Denmark and norway have always had a link to the brittish isles, while sweden have had a link the the baltic coast and even russia. I can't say the general cultural ties of eastern europe are stronger than those to denmark and norway (except finland which are stronger period, but there we are both in denial) but I can say that those ties are way more powerful than most swedes are willing to entertain the idea of.

Sweden has no intrest in a union with denmark, just look at the reactions to the rebranding of öresund to "the greater copenhagen area", now that almost fired up the old dislike of danes for real, sure there are some oddballs who are facinated with the idea then again there is a unionst movement for uniting sweden with latvia too (not to mention finland). And truth be told I don't think denmark would be very happy with it either, since sweden would undoubtably dominate such a union (simply because it's has so much more people).

Stop changing the Goal Post, Naples proves your point wrong there was Kingdoms name after cities.
There was one kingdom named after a city. And remember that kingdom lost it's independence before eu4 started and never (asfaik) regained it. You can't really talk of naples as a kingdom in the EU4 era since it was just another title held by the kings of aragon and later spain.
 
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Quaade

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The vikings had been gone for 400 years when eu4 starts! The people of that day had as much in common with vikings as we do with the witch hunts.
True the germanic nordics have a common origin but they divereged past that point. And just becuase most swedes think that they belong with denmark and norway today doesn't make it true. Yes I have also encountered those sentiments but then I worked for five years at the swedish national maritime museum along with people who actually understood history and they showed me how these common missconceptions were faulty. Sweden is in denial about it's ties to eastern europe, mainly because east has come to have such negative overtones. But truth is even before the failure of the kalmar union sweden traded in the baltic, even the swedish vikings sailed east. Denmark and norway have always had a link to the brittish isles, while sweden have had a link the the baltic coast and even russia.
Sweden has no intrest in a union with denmark, just look at the reactions to the rebranding of öresund to "the greater copenhagen area", now that almost fired up the old dislike of danes for real, sure there are some oddballs who are facinated with the idea then again there is a unionst movement for uniting sweden with latvia too (not to mention finland).

Both Denmark and Hansa traded East too, was livonia or estonia not part of the Danish rule?
With that argument, Venice would be more similar with Mongolia, they sailed and travelled east to trade with Mongolia and did so for many years... does that make them Mongolian???

I see no reason why Finland, Baltic stages couldn't be part of the union, they have much in common and are enough similar to make it work :)
 
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TheDungen

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Both Denmark and Hansa traded East too, was livonia or estonia not part of the Danish rule?
With that argument, Venice would be more similar with Mongolia, they sailed and travelled east to trade with Mongolia and did so for many years... does that make them Mongolian???

I see no reason why Finland, Baltic stages couldn't be part of the union, they have much in common and are enough similar to make it work :)
So perhaps denamrk has some more eastern europe in it than it would like to owe up to as well. The hansa traded mainly in the batlic but compared to the fact that germany was created by prussia I don't think the cultural influences of that matter that much. But germany has a diffrent realtion to it's eastern roots. There are plety of germans who still was prussia back (at least after a few beers).

What union? A new nordic union? Why even discuss such a thing it won't happen. Norway would never join they have nothing to gain from it (and they probably do not relish the thought of ending up under swedish or danish rule again) and without them you are basically suggesting denmark become part of sweden because that is what practically will happen.
The nordic council is as close a relationship as we need. As for true unions there is a union for all of europe.

Or let me put it like this, creating such a union would be a massive administrative undertaking* and how would it really benefit people? We already have most advantages that it could gain us through the EU (in the case of sweden, denmark, finland and the balt states) and the schengen (in case of norway). It's a meaningless vanity project.

I mean we're talking several countries that have to use english to communicate with each other. Danes and swedes don't udnerstand each other unless they've had a lot of experience dealing with the other people (german is actually easier to understand than danish), and the finnish refuse to speak swedish despite being able to
 
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Golladan

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@DDRJake Will you be doing a stream for this expansion, like the one you did for Common Sense where you got eaten by Riga?
 
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Atlantians

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I wonder if the secondary effect of improving relations (improving your opinion of them) will help their relation improvement speed?
 

Magnificent Genius

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I wonder if the secondary effect of improving relations (improving your opinion of them) will help their relation improvement speed?

I don't know, but it will finally solve that, "I want to ally with you, but for some inexplicable reason I don't like you enough to ally you," problem that frustrates me.
 

Promanco

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The vikings had been gone for 400 years when eu4 starts! The people of that day had as much in common with vikings as we do with the witch hunts.
True the germanic nordics have a common origin but they divereged past that point. And just becuase most swedes think that they belong with denmark and norway today doesn't make it true. Yes I have also encountered those sentiments but then I worked for five years at the swedish national maritime museum along with people who actually understood history and they showed me how these common missconceptions were faulty. Sweden is in denial about it's ties to eastern europe, mainly because east has come to have such negative overtones. But truth is even before the failure of the kalmar union sweden traded in the baltic, even the swedish vikings sailed east. Denmark and norway have always had a link to the brittish isles, while sweden have had a link the the baltic coast and even russia. I can't say the general cultural ties of eastern europe are stronger than those to denmark and norway (except finland which are stronger period, but there we are both in denial) but I can say that those ties are way more powerful than most swedes are willing to entertain the idea of.

Sweden has no intrest in a union with denmark, just look at the reactions to the rebranding of öresund to "the greater copenhagen area", now that almost fired up the old dislike of danes for real, sure there are some oddballs who are facinated with the idea then again there is a unionst movement for uniting sweden with latvia too (not to mention finland). And truth be told I don't think denmark would be very happy with it either, since sweden would undoubtably dominate such a union (simply because it's has so much more people).


There was one kingdom named after a city. And remember that kingdom lost it's independence before eu4 started and never (asfaik) regained it. You can't really talk of naples as a kingdom in the EU4 era since it was just another title held by the kings of aragon and later spain.
Was Naples a Kingdom Rank title during the timeframe? Yes or No
Who held the title is irrelevant to the Rank of the title.
EDIT:This is without even considering Byzantium, who's modern name is based on the City of Byzantium, and who's contemporary name was well ROME which is a City they didnt even held any longer.
 
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TheDungen

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Was Naples a Kingdom Rank title during the timeframe? Yes or No
Who held the title is irrelevant to the Rank of the title.
EDIT:This is without even considering Byzantium, who's modern name is based on the City of Byzantium, and who's contemporary name was well ROME which is a City they didnt even held any longer.
I've already responded to this, Rome got it's name in a very diffrent time. The empire of Byzantium never existed it's just a word we use for the roman empire after it became greek.

My statement was relating the the EU4 timeframe, rome got it's name long before it, and naples didn't exist as a separate kingdom in it.

Anyway why it it even relevant? All I want is the hansa to be a formable tag, do you have any argument against that? I really don't see what naples naming have to do with that. Most factions get formable tags to aspire towards, and the hansa makes sense as such a one for the free cities in northern germany. Westphalen makes no sense (in any way, and make you a monarchy) and hannover requires you to be a monarchy.
 
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Quaade

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So perhaps denamrk has some more eastern europe in it than it would like to owe up to as well. The hansa traded mainly in the batlic but compared to the fact that germany was created by prussia I don't think the cultural influences of that matter that much. But germany has a diffrent realtion to it's eastern roots. There are plety of germans who still was prussia back (at least after a few beers).

What union? A new nordic union? Why even discuss such a thing it won't happen. Norway would never join they have nothing to gain from it (and they probably do not relish the thought of ending up under swedish or danish rule again) and without them you are basically suggesting denmark become part of sweden because that is what practically will happen.
The nordic council is as close a relationship as we need. As for true unions there is a union for all of europe.

Or let me put it like this, creating such a union would be a massive administrative undertaking* and how would it really benefit people? We already have most advantages that it could gain us through the EU (in the case of sweden, denmark, finland and the balt states) and the schengen (in case of norway). It's a meaningless vanity project.

I mean we're talking several countries that have to use english to communicate with each other. Danes and swedes don't udnerstand each other unless they've had a lot of experience dealing with the other people (german is actually easier to understand than danish), and the finnish refuse to speak swedish despite being able to

Twisting my words... But I did ask Dick Harrison about your statement of Swedish and Finnish culture, he assumed you had mistaken him since he had never stated that swedish culture were apart from danish and norwergian, he even went as far as saying that they in fact did share a lots of cultural similarities with them.

The union is not unlikely, since they are already cooperating on a number of things, and they are discussion of more ways to cooperate and the Nordic council have existed for over 60 years, so the issue with language is not that big of a deal. Since there are some ways to make such a union that doesn´t require much administration and the laws are quite similar anyway, I´ll assume that´s your political stand and respect that :)
 

TheDungen

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Twisting my words... But I did ask Dick Harrison about your statement of Swedish and Finnish culture, he assumed you had mistaken him since he had never stated that swedish culture were apart from danish and norwergian, he even went as far as saying that they in fact did share a lots of cultural similarities with them.

The union is not unlikely, since they are already cooperating on a number of things, and they are discussion of more ways to cooperate and the Nordic council have existed for over 60 years, so the issue with language is not that big of a deal. Since there are some ways to make such a union that doesn´t require much administration and the laws are quite similar anyway, I´ll assume that´s your political stand and respect that :)
Now who's twisting words the only thing I attributed to dick harrisson was the part about scanian having a separate origin from swedish and danish.
And I've never said that swedish adanish and norwegian aren't related, I'm just staying there are others almost equally related cultures in other language group. And that finnish is more closely related to swedish than danish and norwegian.
In my experience the only people who want a nordic union are the white supremicist crowd hopped up in national romantic ideas of the viking legacy.
 

Atlantians

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... hopped up in national romantic ideas of the viking legacy.

Hey, what is wrong with being hopped up in national romantic ideas of the viking legacy. :(
 

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TheDungen

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Hey, what is wrong with being hopped up in national romantic ideas of the viking legacy. :(
Because we are not vikings, the vikings are just one facet of our past. In fact realtivly few of our ancestors will have been vikings, remember 90% of the people of the norse countries were farmers and fishermen who never left the land they were born in. And the vast majority of those who did go else where were mercenaries and traders not raiders and conquerors.
And the vikings were a long time ago. Our contact with other countries have shaped us more than our viking ancestry has, france, germany, christian europe in general.
 

Quaade

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Now who's twisting words the only thing I attributed to dick harrisson was the part about scanian having a separate origin from swedish and danish.
And I've never said that swedish adanish and norwegian aren't related, I'm just staying there are others almost equally related cultures in other language group. And that finnish is more closely related to swedish than danish and norwegian.
In my experience the only people who want a nordic union are the white supremicist crowd hopped up in national romantic ideas of the viking legacy.

You used it as an argument that swedes and finns were more equal, but I´ll give you the benefit of the doubt there. However the Finns being more equal than Swedes doesn´t make Swedes less equal than the other scandinavians. Dick Harrison did explain that they had many cultural parallels to danes and norwegians, which you argued against.

Not sure about national romantics in Sweden, but in DK they are quite less willing to participate in a union, it´s more of an idea in the general populace that such a union could benefit all and strengthen our mutual position, due to our much easier circumstances to come to agreements and only builds on what we already have agreed upon.
 

Atlantians

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Because we are not vikings, the vikings are just one facet of our past. In fact realtivly few of our ancestors will have been vikings, remember 90% of the people of the norse countries were farmers and fishermen who never left the land they were born in. And the vast majority of those who did go else where were mercenaries and traders not raiders and conquerors.
And the vikings were a long time ago. Our contact with other countries have shaped us more than our viking ancestry has, france, germany, christian europe in general.

But... Vikings. :(


vikings.jpg



My maternal grandmother's family is descended from Norwegian immigrants. :cool:

We pillaged and conquered Wisconsin! :rolleyes:
 
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