So... wikipedia is lying then in an article on an obscure community? If those pesky facts dont agree, just get better facts I suppose.
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So... wikipedia is lying then in an article on an obscure community? If those pesky facts dont agree, just get better facts I suppose.
Yasko,
According to what I've found there was actually a fairly large Bulgar, Roma, Jewish, and Muslim population in Thessaloniki through 1917. That's the latest I could find facts for. Now, the Bulgar population and Turkish (Muslim) did drop quite a bit after 1913, about 40% for the Bulgars and just over 80% for the Turks, but there were still sizable populations there. To me that means no genocide, no ethnic cleansing, and no mass deportations. I would guess those who left did so, generally, of their own free will.
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Afaik quite many Jews lived in Thessaloniki until the German occupation. That minority lived there until 1940...
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I´m not talking about jews here, but the other population.
http://ieg-ego.eu/en/threads/europe...nd-emigration-of-the-muslims-from-the-balkans
http://ieg-ego.eu/en/threads/europe...nd-emigration-of-the-muslims-from-the-balkans
Really? Cuz what you said was:
So what I bloody well did was look up what happened to Theselloniki. And then you complain that I did that because it turned out that the preconceptions I had were tainted by going out and doing research.
And now the greeks are supposed to be to blame for the refugees of Bulgaria and Serbia to boot? Even the refugees that were fleeing into Greece? Give me a freakin' break.
They were kicked out, one way or another. Istanbul was full of Balkan moslem refugees after the Balkan Wars.
Around 17% of the moslems were left in Greece after the Balkan Wars. 630.000 were killed more than 800.000 had to flee to Ottoman Empire(numbers go for all Balkans regions). So yeah i stand with what i said, neither Greeks or Turks were prepared to show any tolerance to minorities during this time...
I'd like to see a source about the 630.000 civilian muslims killed in the Balkans during the Balkan Wars. It sound excessive.
It seems to me like he is taking random numbers and misattributing them. For instance taking the population of all of Macedonia and treating it like the population of Salonika, taking all displaced peoples in the Balkans in the 20s and using it as the number of Turks displaced from Greece.
I see. Well, four points:
1. I don't see anything about Greeks commiting atrocities on a large scale in this map. You are blaming Greece for the conduct of Bulgaria and Serbia. (not to mention the fact that Muslims in the newly conquered Greek territories where a minority - not majority except for Thessaloniki)
2. The paper itself says that there was no "ethnic cleansing" in Thessaloniki.
3. The paper itself says that numbers cannot be accurate as there was no consistent census numbers immediately before or after. The first census in Turkey was in 1927 while in Greece in 1913.
So for Greece you might have an image on how many muslims where left but you can never really know how many reached Turkey. 1927 is just too far away.
4. Your source is Pro-Turkish and strongly biased.
So yeah, i'd take it all with a grain of salt. Especially the "Greeks doing ethnic cleansing" part.
I won't deny that atrocities have been commited from both sides. This is a well known fact.
Genocide though? Not from both sides.
1. I don't see anything about Greeks commiting atrocities on a large scale in this map. You are blaming Greece for the conduct of Bulgaria and Serbia. (not to mention the fact that Muslims in the newly conquered Greek territories where a minority - not majority except for Thessaloniki)
2. The paper itself says that there was no "ethnic cleansing" in Thessaloniki.
3. The paper itself says that numbers cannot be accurate as there was no consistent census numbers immediately before or after. The first census in Turkey was in 1927 while in Greece in 1913.
So for Greece you might have an image on how many muslims where left but you can never really know how many reached Turkey. 1927 is just too far away.
4. Your source is Pro-Turkish and strongly biased.
So yeah, i'd take it all with a grain of salt. Especially the "Greeks doing ethnic cleansing" part.
I won't deny that atrocities have been commited from both sides. This is a well known fact.
Genocide though? Not from both sides.
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McCarthy doesn't argue that there was a centrally planned effort to murder Muslims, merely that enormous numbers of Muslims disappeared in the 14 years between the last pre-war census and the first post-war censuses, and that it is reasonable to assume the wars are to blame (rather than natural deaths, systematic over/underestimation, unrecorded emigration, or other factors). I find it hard to argue with this fairly basic conclusion? The PDF document also cites a lot of observations made by people during those wars, to support the point that the armies of the Balkan nations carried out ethnic cleansing in a pretty medieval manner and did so endemically throughout the region. There are no numbers associated with these observations but they support the original conclusion.
As for your point 4, is that not a little childish?
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Afaik we were talking about what happened in Thessaloniki and Greco-Turkish relations and refugee exchanges of the era.
Talking about the whole Balkan peninsula is bound to lead to incorrect conclusions, don't you think?
As i said, the paper itself cannot state even one occasion of ethic cleansing happening inside Greece.
The only think is says about Greece was based on the pop census afterwards, and it says that 17% of the total remaining Muslim pops in the area lived in Greece. That is not much to go by and Yasko used it out of context already.
Talking about the whole Balkan peninsula is bound to lead to incorrect conclusions, don't you think?
As i said, the paper itself cannot state even one occasion of ethic cleansing happening inside Greece.
The only think is says about Greece was based on the pop census afterwards, and it says that 17% of the total remaining Muslim pops in the area lived in Greece. That is not much to go by and Yasko used it out of context already.
Is it? If a source is biased is it objective? Is it to be trusted? Can anyone really base his numbers for 1913 on a 1927 census?
Showing that the source has zero credibility on the subject at hand? I can't think of a more salient issue.
Yasko,
This paper doesn't cite any specific instances of Greek ethnic cleansing. Furthermore, it doesn't support your population claims. The numbers you cite include people throughout the region. Some ended up in Bulgaria and some ended up in Serbia. One can't hold Greece accountable for the actions of Bulgaria and Serbia. Did large numbers of people move, yes. Was it do to ethnic cleansing on the part of Greece, probably not. At least this doesn't support it. Many people probably moved to what was left of the Ottoman Empire just because they didn't want to be subjects of the very Christian nations they had held under thumb for 450 years, fearing repercussions that may not have materialized. There were definitely atrocities committed , there often is in war. But to genocide and ethnic cleansing is, IMO, unfair.
I'm still not convinced the Greeks would have allowed any of the Turkish inhabitants to remain in its newly conquered lands had it won in '22. But this paper doesn't shed any light on the picture. Other than perhaps that the ethnic population would have left out of fear of reprisals. Reprisals which may or may not have actually happened.
The Point of paper is not show that a genocide was commited or not. Greeks would not tolerate any moslems in their new territory and that paper shows is pretty well. Does it really matter if its done in 1 or 10 years? At the end 17% of the moslem population remained in Greece after the Balkan Wars. In Anatolia it was worse, the greek army Went for ethnic cleansing in areas that was supposed to throgh an referandum according to Sevres Treaty. If they had succeded it would be the same here, most muslims getting killed or just gone after 1-2-5-10 whatever years....
You asked a scource for 630.000 killed moslems and you got it...
You asked a scource for 630.000 killed moslems and you got it...
Oh no? Well, look at the thracian muslim minority. They are living here now and are of course Greek citizens! How i wonder if the Greeks were that intolerant? I won't bother to elaborate on what Turks did with their orthodox minorities on the other hand.
Ok this is just stupid. 17% of the TOTAL REMAINING BALKAN MUSLIMS lived in Greece. That's all it says.
Do not use it out of context again please. It just loses all meaning.
I did prove that the figure is quite possibly very wrong and the source has no credibility, correct? Any paper is as good as its creator, his goals and his quality of research. And this source is doubtful at best - really he has the cheek to claim that there was NO Armenian ethnic cleasing. Ho-ho-ho.
Anyway, with all my points made and with no real discussion progress, i will refrain from posting here further. Enjoy.
Yasko,
I think this is starting to get too personal. You are repeating claims that have no basis in fact. The one source you do cite is suspect at best. I guess at this point we just agree to disagree and I'll say thank you for your perspective. I started this thread and there were some really interesting conversations. I thank everyone for their participation. Unfortunately, I think this thread has outlived its usefulness and I won't be replying here any longer.
I think this is starting to get too personal. You are repeating claims that have no basis in fact. The one source you do cite is suspect at best. I guess at this point we just agree to disagree and I'll say thank you for your perspective. I started this thread and there were some really interesting conversations. I thank everyone for their participation. Unfortunately, I think this thread has outlived its usefulness and I won't be replying here any longer.
the greeks didn't ethnically cleanse the dodecanese when they got them from the italians in the 1920s.
Crete was the only place that was attemtped (and succeeded) to get ethnically cleansed by the Greeks. And that mostly happened because the Cretans were provoked by the Turks.
I wouldn't argue against the fact that the Ionia Turks would have a similar fate if they refused to accept the fact that they'd be a non-ruling minority. It almost happened in Cyprus when the Turks started their terrorist attempts in the early 50s until the mid 70s when Turkey invaded. Even to this day, the Turks of Cyprus refuse to accept their status as a non-ruling minority. Not sure what this sort of mentality is, but it seems prevailing in Turks who used to be ruling Greek lands with only a few exceptions.
I wouldn't argue against the fact that the Ionia Turks would have a similar fate if they refused to accept the fact that they'd be a non-ruling minority. It almost happened in Cyprus when the Turks started their terrorist attempts in the early 50s until the mid 70s when Turkey invaded. Even to this day, the Turks of Cyprus refuse to accept their status as a non-ruling minority. Not sure what this sort of mentality is, but it seems prevailing in Turks who used to be ruling Greek lands with only a few exceptions.
The Greeks only received the Dodekanes and east thrace after WW2. There were no more ethnic cleansing then because times had changed between 1912 and 1945.
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