The Consequences of a Greek Victory in the 1919-22 Greco-Turkish War

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

JodelDiplom

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Apr 5, 2013
4.512
18.698
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
Did Greece even have enough people to populate Constantinople with? Or are we just operating on a EU4 scenario here, where all those Turks can be made into Greeks with a couple of adm points?
As mentioned already, Constantinople was a multicultural city. The Turks were only a minority in the city before WW1, and the the city declined enormously (in population and in wealth) after the war as the Turks expelled / pogromed most of the Istanbulite Greeks, Jews and Armenians in the 1920s-1940s. Population numbers can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul#Demographics

AFAIK it took until around 1950 for the city to return to its pre-1914 population, and by then most of the newcomers were poor illiterate people from the countryside, so the face of the city had changed enormously. It was poorer than it had been, and much less cosmopolitan.

If the Greeks took control, the same thing would have happened, more or less: There would have been expulsions and pogroms against Muslims and eventually also Jews, Armenians and other minorities, leading to a drop in population of maybe 20-40% over a course of 10-15 years and a hemorrhaging of wealth, while simultaneously they would try to attract diaspora Greeks to repopulate the city. That being said, the city was big but it was not actually a huge metropolis by continental European standards - its population at the turn of the century was perhaps 900,000 people, of which something like a third were Greeks and another third were non-Muslim minorities (Jews, Armenians, etc), so it would not be beyond the capacity of the Greek government to remove the Turkish element of the population and turn it into a majority-Greek city relatively quickly. Greek society after WW1 was rabidly and violently nationalist, but it did not become as culturally insular as the Turkish republic, so Greece might actually have been a little more benevolent towards minorities. Who knows. But since Greece is overall a smaller country, Constantinople would under Greek rule probably not have seen a population explosion in the 1970s and 1980s like Istanbul did.
 

JodelDiplom

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Apr 5, 2013
4.512
18.698
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
well, in the scenario presented, Greece has taken the most Greek regions of Turkey. There's still the Pontic Greeks and other populations, but it's not certain whether or not the population transfer would have taken place in light of a complete Greek victory in the Greco-Turkish War.
The Greeks would for sure have expelled most Turks. No way they would have let them stay. The Turks would have retaliated - it's not as if there weren't also Greeks and other Christians in the interior of Anatolia.
 

yerm

Field Marshal
68 Badges
Apr 18, 2013
4.662
4.867
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
It doesn't matter if the only Greeks in Constantinople are the troops who just recently occupied it; the choices are either make it the nation's capital or watch Western Europe turn it into another Danzig. There's a reason the capital of Italy is in Rome, not Turin, and it's the same reasons but even more pressing why Greece's capital in this scenario would be Constantinople, not Athens. Population numbers and local ethnicities don't really matter here - the entire city could be completely and totally deserted, the government would still move on in.

The Greeks would for sure have expelled most Turks. No way they would have let them stay. The Turks would have retaliated - it's not as if there weren't also Greeks and other Christians in the interior of Anatolia.

Would they have retaliated, or tried a population exchange? Did Greece historically retaliate when it was Turkey who won?
 

JodelDiplom

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Apr 5, 2013
4.512
18.698
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
Would they have retaliated, or tried a population exchange? Did Greece historically retaliate when it was Turkey who won?
Yes, they retaliated, and both countries eventually organized it into a "population exchange" which left Greece with a lot of Greek refugees from Turkey, but also Turkey with (a bit less) Muslim refugees from Greece.
NM_griech-turk-Bewegung_192.gif
 

Abnninja

Second Lieutenant
23 Badges
Jul 15, 2015
157
25
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Yes, they retaliated, and both countries eventually organized it into a "population exchange" which left Greece with a lot of Greek refugees from Turkey, but also Turkey with (a bit less) Muslim refugees from Greece.

This is a great graphic. The Greeks were not quite as xenophobic as Turkey and this may have changed things regarding population expulsions had they won. After all, there were a lot of Greeks who learned to work with the Turks, granted by necessity, while those Greeks resided in the Ottoman Empire. I think it's possible the Greeks may have allowed the Turks to stay...but not probable.
 

Abnninja

Second Lieutenant
23 Badges
Jul 15, 2015
157
25
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
After some thinking on the matter and remembering what the Greek army did to a few Turkish cities I may have to change my assessment. Perhaps a victorious Greece does expel all Turkish nationals...which would be nearly suicidal.
 

keynes2.0

Field Marshal
45 Badges
Jun 27, 2010
7.861
4.281
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Darkest Hour
  • East India Company
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Pride of Nations
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
I dont see why we would assume that. Mass deportations were the exception, not the rule. The Turkish xenophobia was exceptional even by the standards of the day, these were the people who did the Armenian genocide. I find it very unlikely that the greeks would be as xenophobic simply because almost all peoples in history weren't as xenophobic.
 

Doukan

Literally Who
22 Badges
Oct 14, 2012
803
176
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome Gold
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
I dont see why we would assume that. Mass deportations were the exception, not the rule. The Turkish xenophobia was exceptional even by the standards of the day, these were the people who did the Armenian genocide. I find it very unlikely that the greeks would be as xenophobic simply because almost all peoples in history weren't as xenophobic.
I'd say all that's needed for such things to occur are the right conditions, and that a Greek victory would have created the perfect situation.
In fact I'd go so far as to say the Ottoman empire wasn't uniquely xenophobic, but that's not the thread topic :p
 

keynes2.0

Field Marshal
45 Badges
Jun 27, 2010
7.861
4.281
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Darkest Hour
  • East India Company
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Pride of Nations
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
The Ottoman empire wasn't exceptionally xenophobic, no. But this is just a few years after the Armenian genocide. They lived with these people for centuries without doing that. Clearly it was an unusually xenophobic time in Turkey.

I guess "the right conditions" would prompt anyone to similar levels of xenophobia. But the greeks hadn't just experienced the stuff that made the turks so xenophobic. Sure the greeks had xenophobia of their own but most xenophobes didn't go to the extreme lengths that the young turks did.
 

Abnninja

Second Lieutenant
23 Badges
Jul 15, 2015
157
25
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Well, let's all remember xenophobia is a Greek word! Okay, sorry I've been reading each post in the thread and I had to add that.

I don't believe the Greeks would have done what the Young Turks did, but they were certainly capable of expelling the Turks from their newly conquered lands. I'm just of a divided mind on whether or not they would have done such a thing had they won in '23. The smart thing to do would have been to welcome and assimilate. There was a time when the Ottoman Empire was expert at doing just that and the Muslim population of Spain probably knew no peer in the art of assimilation. But this too is a different topic.
 

diegosimeone

General
69 Badges
Oct 5, 2012
1.886
1.184
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Sengoku
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
After some thinking on the matter and remembering what the Greek army did to a few Turkish cities I may have to change my assessment. Perhaps a victorious Greece does expel all Turkish nationals...which would be nearly suicidal.

That was done in retaliation* and from a defeated army. I don't think that a victorious Greek army would be so ruthless. Maybe some excpeptions where ultranationalists had more control over their regiments.

*Greek/Pontic genocide. And to be fair to history, the Turks once again didn't stop after that and did much worse stuff to Greeks of Ionia/Asia Minor in 1922. This history revisionism where Greeks are as guilty as Turks of such actions is really bothering, not the only case of course. Applies in Cyprus as well. Only difference here is that Greece pretty much started this in 1919 unlike 1974. And let's not forget the 1950s....
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Abnninja

Second Lieutenant
23 Badges
Jul 15, 2015
157
25
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
That was done in retaliation* and from a defeated army. I don't think that a victorious Greek army would be so ruthless. Maybe some excpeptions where ultranationalists had more control over their regiments.

*Greek/Pontic genocide. And to be fair to history, the Turks once again didn't stop after that and did much worse stuff to Greeks of Ionia/Asia Minor in 1922. This history revisionism where Greeks are as guilty as Turks of such actions is really bothering, not the only case of course. Applies in Cyprus as well. Only difference here is that Greece pretty much started this in 1919 unlike 1974. And let's not forget the 1950s....

Yeah, I'm a history buff and pretty good at military history, but I'm woefully ill-informed regarding this war. This is unfortunate since my Father's parents emigrated from Greece to the US early last century. Both emigrated from a portion of Greece called Mani. My Grandfather came from a very small village named Skifyanika, where supposedly the Maniati held off a Turkish army. I haven't been able to find out anything about the village though.

But I digress, there is little published in English about the Greco-Turkish war. I do know the victorious Turkish army was absolutely ruthless to Greek towns as it advanced. And now thinking about what you said, the Greek Army did not act in the same manner when it was victorious and advancing in the early stages of the war. So, my assessment is the Greeks may very well have been open to allowing some, if not most, of the conquered Turks to remain.
 

Yasko

Colonel
14 Badges
Feb 13, 2001
829
5
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Semper Fi
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
I dont see why we would assume that. Mass deportations were the exception, not the rule. The Turkish xenophobia was exceptional even by the standards of the day, these were the people who did the Armenian genocide. I find it very unlikely that the greeks would be as xenophobic simply because almost all peoples in history weren't as xenophobic.

Check how Theselloniki was handled during and after Balkan Wars, also how western Turkey was handled in 1919 and forward. If thats not enough for you you can also look into Cyprus untill 74. Neither Turks or Greeks would accept minorities during this time...
 
  • 1
Reactions:

diegosimeone

General
69 Badges
Oct 5, 2012
1.886
1.184
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Sengoku
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
But I digress, there is little published in English about the Greco-Turkish war. I do know the victorious Turkish army was absolutely ruthless to Greek towns as it advanced. And now thinking about what you said, the Greek Army did not act in the same manner when it was victorious and advancing in the early stages of the war. So, my assessment is the Greeks may very well have been open to allowing some, if not most, of the conquered Turks to remain.

It would probably turn ugly for the Turks IF a single Turkish state emerges from the Ottoman Empire. I don't think that'd be the case in a Greek victory though. The Greeks definitely wanted to 'cleanse' their state and have an almost homogenous population, but I think a minority of around 10% would be accepted and the Turks wouldn't be very militant if they had no allegiance to one of the new Turkish state (assuming that 'Turkey' does not form but the Ottomans are split into 2+ states). But there'd be a limit as the Greeks wanted a nation-state and not an empire, some nationalists may have made it harder for non-Greeks to live there while I'm not really sure where the Turks would want to go if they had to leave their homes. Most of the Muslim world was under British and French occupation at the time, wasn't it?
 
  • 3
Reactions:

Abnninja

Second Lieutenant
23 Badges
Jul 15, 2015
157
25
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Most of the Muslim world was under British and French occupation at the time, wasn't it?

Yes, the vast majority of the Muslim World was under European domination. Hence a lot of the problems we have now. Of course, before that a lot of Europe was under Muslim domination. And before that someone else dominated someone different in another place. And all of this has led to our current sorry state of affairs.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

keynes2.0

Field Marshal
45 Badges
Jun 27, 2010
7.861
4.281
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Darkest Hour
  • East India Company
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Pride of Nations
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
Check how Thessaloniki was handled during and after Balkan Wars

Okay, I googled around and this is what I got:

Before the 1913 conquest, Jews constituted a majority of the population. Five years later there was a fire and afterwards, Jews constituted a majority of the population. Five years after that there was a massive influx of refugees and the population grew from news greeks. At the same time economic migrants, both Greek and Jewish, left Greece in general and huge greek and jewish expatriate communities were sprung up around the world. Thessaloniki was 5% of the population of Greece so naturally many of these immigrants came from the population of Thessaloniki. This massive turnover in population made Jews no longer a majority, only a plurality. Wikipedia states that on the eve of the first world war, Jews were 40% of the population of Thessaloniki. Given the growth of the city between 1913 and 1940, this means that the Jewish population was stable during Greek rule. There was a riot in 1933 where 1 Jew was killed and about 500 made homeless. Then came the Nazis. 98% of the Jewish population of Thessaloniki was killed by the Nazis, making it perhaps the worst hit major city in the world.

So, like I said, mass deportations were the exception, not the rule. There are incidents of brutality in almost all wars but the scale of the post-Sevres crisis was massive and not what you would generally expect. There is a graphic on the wikipedia page for the Jews of Thesaloniki which shows that the Turkish population didn't disappear until Sevres and the Jewish population didn't disappear until the holocaust.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Saloniki_population_graph.png
 

Furion Matsuya

Nyarlathotep
80 Badges
Jun 19, 2011
1.360
894
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Victoria 2
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
Yes, the vast majority of the Muslim World was under European domination. Hence a lot of the problems we have now. Of course, before that a lot of Europe was under Muslim domination. And before that someone else dominated someone different in another place. And all of this has led to our current sorry state of affairs.

Indeed you could almost say history if two individuals fighting with one occasionally getting absolutely dominated and sat upon only to later get up and resume the fight and potential reverse the previous outcome for a time. All the while much blood is spilt and bones broken and such but the two continue to live and carry on fighting
 

Yasko

Colonel
14 Badges
Feb 13, 2001
829
5
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Semper Fi
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
Okay, I googled around and this is what I got:

Before the 1913 conquest, Jews constituted a majority of the population.

I doubt that jews were in majority, but a large group, maybe largest. There were a large muslim population too, up to 600.000 fled to Turkey right after the Balkan Wars(many from newly made greek lands), they are not part of that "pop exchange" later since they were kicked out right before WWI. Greeks constituted a very minor part of Teseloniki back than.

Ethnic cleansing started as soon as greeks landed in Anatolia, that was the what started the turkish resistance in Anatolia and it was pretty serious, people that fled towards east woke up the population in anatolia, without the ethnic cleansing i pretty much doubt that Ataturk could start a national resistance in Ankara. There were some allied investigations on this so its not only turkish scources.

Like i said earlier, neither greeks or turks would tolerate any large minority during this time...

Pop of Selanik province pre-Balkan Wars

Selanik
502 175 Moslem
294 624 Greek
239 290 Bulgar
43 423 Jews
1 038 973 Total
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Abnninja

Second Lieutenant
23 Badges
Jul 15, 2015
157
25
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Pop of Selanik province pre-Balkan Wars

Selanik
502 175 Moslem
294 624 Greek
239 290 Bulgar
43 423 Jews
1 038 973 Total

Yasko,

Where did you get your information from? My searches show the total to be much lower...around 10%. Also, my search shows that the Jewish population was indeed just a tad over 50% and larger than your figure by about 13,000. My figures come from a 1910 census. And, apparently the Greeks did tolerate a very large Jewish population up until WW II. It was then that Nazi Germany, with the help of Fascist Greeks, murdered over 90% of the Thessaloniki Jews.
 

Yasko

Colonel
14 Badges
Feb 13, 2001
829
5
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Semper Fi
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
Yasko,

Where did you get your information from? My searches show the total to be much lower...around 10%. Also, my search shows that the Jewish population was indeed just a tad over 50% and larger than your figure by about 13,000. My figures come from a 1910 census. And, apparently the Greeks did tolerate a very large Jewish population up until WW II. It was then that Nazi Germany, with the help of Fascist Greeks, murdered over 90% of the Thessaloniki Jews.

Province numbers? Census of 1910, mind you its the province but the city didnt have more than 150.000 anyway so even with all the jews in the city it had a subtantial moslem and bulgar population which dissapeared right after the Balkan Wars.

  1. ^ Συλλογικο εργο, "Ιστορια του Ελληνικου Εθνους", History of Greek Nation Том ΙΔ, "ΕΚΔΟΤΙΚΗ ΑΘΗΝΩΝ", Athens, 1973, p. 340. (Yunanca ve İngilizce)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.