• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

unmerged(212)

Captain
Jun 27, 2000
372
0
Visit site
It's clear that stability is one of the most important aspects of EU. When it hits -3, the Nation is essentially on the brink of disaster and when it reaches +3, life is peachy. I think this represents a major step forward in the realism of strategy games, after all… which Civilization player hasn't sent armies on a suicide mission in order to 'calm' civil disturbances in the home city?

Recently, I've been thinking about the relative stability of societies in real life. For example, I recently read an article about the differences in business opportunities in two huge developing markets: China and India. The theme of the article was: China appears orderly, but is chaotic underneath, but India appears chaotic yet is orderly underneath. The logic for this position was based upon the author's belief that India has an established legal tradition, one generally spoken business language (English), a generally functioning electoral system, and a higher degree of cultural tolerance. Clearly, India isn't any type of utopia, but these advantages would result in a better living environment in the long-run.

However, which of these countries would be modeled as having a higher stability rating if they were to be added to EU? I would suppose that it would be India, due to the Chinese Tianammen Square massacres. You'd guess that China has a lower stability, but keeps the cities well garrisoned, so that a riot is put down immediately.

Now another comparison would be 17th century France versus England. Some historians argue that the English parliament gained political power during this period, as religious minorities believed vesting this institution with greater authority would allow them to maintain their right to worship as they chose. Conversely, it's believed that France responded to changes in its society by centralizing power in the monarchy. Louis XIV created a powerful monarchy that gave him absolute power. He used the slogans 'One king, one law, one faith' and 'I am the state' to demonstrate his attitudes toward what a leader should be in the setting of seventeenth century France. I'd argue that these two different approaches towards governance left an indelible imprint on the fabric of these respective societies. Ultimately, the heavy-handedness of the French Kings eroded the 'stability' that by the end of the 18th century, the peasants rebelled and then marched all the aristocrats off to the guillotine. While England did have to shake-off the loss of its American colonies, its society was much more stable and well on its way to the golden Victorian era.

Now, we all know that in EU different leaders, random events and player actions all have a major impact on stability. I'd like to see it become a little more 'persistent' so that actions taken by one ruler will have an impact on society as a whole and can have a potential impact a century later. From the AAR's I've read, it seems like the game allows many players to wait until stability hits +2 or +3, and then they're off to war again. However, the player should be rewarded for avoiding war, and perhaps the benefits of a period of peace and high stability should compound over time. Yet in conclusion this type of issue is outside the scope of the current game, but I think it's something to think about for EU ][.
 

unmerged(90)

Marshall Ombre
Feb 13, 2000
3.550
0
Visit site
'However, which of these countries would be modeled as having a higher stability rating if they were to be added to EU? I would suppose that it would be India, due to the Chinese Tianammen Square massacres. You'd guess that China has a lower stability, but keeps the cities well garrisoned, so that a riot is put down immediately.'

I think you are mixing one global concept (stability) with various political organizations of a society (ie democracy vs dictatorship).
EU has one 'stability' regardless of the political system (English Parlamentarian Monarchy, French absolute monarchy, American republic, etc.)
Depending on the political system, stability is not gained and maintained the same way as you point out.
A dictatorship is stable when people are kept silent (through army, terror, political police etc.) whereas a democracy is stable when the political confrontation can be kept within the borders of a peaceful opposition (through liberties, good economic conditions, and all what philosophs, thinkers and politicians have explained better than I could).
In EU, stability is a general concept (and the beta testers had discussions about whose stability it should represent. Peasantry? Merchants? Princes?). When it's high, all goes better than when it's low (well this is a profound sentence :D )...

Regarding peace, the point is: do I have to do something when at peace ? EU is a game. As a player, just being at peace and looking at the treasure enlarging is boring: I have to do something. So my mind of player is always working to design the next evil masterplan that will allow me to expand... and become the Master of the World (yek yek yek).

Clearly, an isolated minor next to me, with no alliance, little army is soooo tentating!
 

unmerged(212)

Captain
Jun 27, 2000
372
0
Visit site
YND -
Yes, I know that I'm mixing the EU concept of stability with different types of political models. In a future game, I'd like to see stability rounded out a little bit more, and probably have the type of government have a direct impact on the nature of stability. Alpha Centauri allowed you to mix and match different types of governments, cultures and economies; in my opinion while this was innovative it was also a bit mechanical. I don't think that a society would be able to tolerate an overnight shift from a Free Market Democracy to Green Economy Totalitariansim. I would think that the stability would suffer immensely and you'd see Drone Riots all over the place (just to complete the reference to SMAC).

Shifting back to the EU model, I could see different types of governments having only certain levels of stability. For example the French Authoritarian Monarchy: it would use secret police and the King's Musketeers to rule with an iron fist. Most of the time, people would live the fear of imprisionment (or worse) and therefore would be kept at bay. Perhaps stability stays at +2 in this case. However, they're just biding their time for an all out revolt; and when either taxes go too high, or the bread lines get too long, they rebel overnight, and stability plunges to -3.

Juxtapose the French example with that of their neighbors across the channel. I would argue that the English parliament gives the people an outlet for their political frustrations. If you begin with a situation when the economy is good and the Nation is at peace, stability would be at +3. However, a special tax increase could reduce it to +2, and then a recession cuts stability to +1, and then a plague reduces it to zero, and then an unexpected military engagement cuts it to -1 and so forth. This range of stability could give the ruler time to respond to the worsening situtation before the country sinks into anarchy.

I am glad to know that a long period of peace results in a significant accumulation of victory points. Although, I'd still like to see a long period of peace & stability have an actual impact on the way the game is played. A higher birthrate, improved infrastructure initiatives, increased scientific discovery, greater cultural output (artists, musicians, etc) would all be logical benefits.

I know that it gets very tempting to pick fights with your neighbors after a long period of peace. Hopefully, setting the game speed to 'maximum warp' (where a decade goes by in 30 seconds) would be way to alleviate the boredom. Another would be to allow the player to play more of a 'Sim EU' and have more options for improving the infrastructure and economy of the country.
 

unmerged(90)

Marshall Ombre
Feb 13, 2000
3.550
0
Visit site
In a future game, I'd like to see stability rounded out a little bit more, and probably have the type of government have a direct impact on the nature of stability.

Indeed, this could be done. But I see one drawback. You do not always decide what kind of government you will enact. It's not like in Civilization III (discover Republic, change governmant to Republic)...
Of course, a revolution or coup d'état (like the Bolcheviks or Nazis) will dramatically change this. But the society has a force of its own and evolves beyond government's control. From fairly similar Monarchies at the beginning, England and France diverged with time. Putting France in a category and England in another with various pro's and con's would be a bit too rigid, inasmuch as the 'history' in the game diverges from the real one. So it would be hard to determine when France 'becomes' an absolute Monarchy and WHY.

If someone can model such a thing (ie a whole society evolving) then I'll be amazed. A possible representation could be a 2 or 3 dimensions political map where the country would be positionned on the 2 or 3 axes.
For a modern society, one axe could be left-right, another dirigist-libertarian and a third -I don't know- materialist-spiritual perhaps.

Communist North Korea would be extreme left, extreme dirigist, extreme materialist, our western democracies would be somewhere in the middle of the left-right axe (depending on elections), France rather more dirigist than US, etc.

Now stabilising/destabilising factors could be weighted following the placement on one/two/three of these axes. This must be a hell of a lot of work...
 

unmerged(212)

Captain
Jun 27, 2000
372
0
Visit site
YND -
I don't know if too many games have contemplated this approach towards defining a society. Like I mentioned, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri allows a player to mix and match different variables like economy, government type (and two other things I can't recall). But like I said, this was too mechanical as the changes occurred overnight and there wasn't much of a period of unrest or anything.

I've heard about another game that seems to model this in a more reasonable fashion. It's called Tropico and is under development by PopTop the same group that made Railroad Tycoon II. In Tropico you're the dictator of an island in the Caribean and have the choice of how you want your society to run, from either a tourist paradise to a agricultural machine. The concept is pretty detailed, so I've attached this link to their page if you're interested: http://www.poptop.com/Tropico.htm

You are so right about the real tough issue being how the game would acutally implement the changes in different aspects of society. One thought would be by adding different types of ministers to a cabinet, and then allocating them more or less responsibilities. Different ministers would have differing types of levels of both competence and loyalty to the player (initially represented as a Monarch). Granting more autonomy to your ministers over time would begin to limit the ability of the Monarch to issue unilateral decrees, but the trade-off would be that the government would become more efficient. Also allowing opposition type ministers into the government would make the Nation more unified, but may result in the minister doing things that aren't aligned with the wishes of the Monarch.

Any rate, these are just thoughts and nothing that would be added into EU (at the present time).
 

unmerged(90)

Marshall Ombre
Feb 13, 2000
3.550
0
Visit site
Thanks for the link Jiminov (their server seems down right now as I write but I'll try again later).

The last thing I can add is that as close as one simulation can go, it will always be impossible to simulate the evolution of an open society (or in this case, I'll lose what little faith I still have in humanity ! !).
 

Dark Knight

Troll-slayer
2 Badges
Jun 8, 2000
9.512
1
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • 500k Club
Jiminov,
I looked at Tropico. It seems rather amusing, but I suspect in practice it will be very similar to other Simcity type games.

Maybe you should try convincing the people at Paradox to make a 1792-1914 game next. This would need to have a much greater emphasis on domestic politics, both for historical realism and to compensate for less external action (e.g. wars) than the time period of EU offers. A 19th century historical simulation would, IMHO, offer wonderful opportunities for the types of political models you're thinking about.
 

unmerged(212)

Captain
Jun 27, 2000
372
0
Visit site
DK -
Yep, Tropico is clearly in the builder genre, but as you'd expect for this type of game, experienced players will run a more stable country than newbies and probably win the game.

I agree, a 1792 - 1914 add-on to EU would have some very interesting topics to explore. In addition to trying to model the evolution of society, there would need to be an added emphasis on infrastructure due to the influence of the industrial revolution and the railroad. However, my ability to influence Paradox is pretty much non-existent, if I had any clout, I'd be playing a copy of the demo/beta right now.

YND -
The real question is: even if you lost your faith in humanity, would you play the game? I have a feeling you'd be right next to me trying to sign up to be a beta tester for a game that offered such complexity.
 

Sidney

Texan by Choice
22 Badges
Jun 20, 2000
1.602
0
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
Louis XIV created a powerful monarchy that gave him absolute power. He used the slogans 'One king, one law, one faith' and 'I am the state' to demonstrate his attitudes toward what a leader should be in the setting of seventeenth century France. I'd argue that these two different approaches towards governance left an indelible imprint on the fabric of these respective societies. Ultimately, the heavy-handedness of the French Kings eroded the 'stability' that by the end of the 18th century, the peasants rebelled and then marched all the aristocrats off to the guillotine. While England did have to shake-off the loss of its American colonies, its society was much more stable and well on its way to the golden Victorian era.

Keep in mind that the French Revolution was not (Walter LeFebvre be damned) a result of a peasant uprising but rather a revolt of an educated middle class and lower nobility. The stability loss was not due to heavy- handedness and an oppressive government but due to a chronic fiscal crisis that left the monarchy broke and forced them to try and compromise with the Parlements. The French Revolution was an event that escape the control of it's creators. What should be in EU is that financial problems should effect your stability.

Also, don't forget that the great stability of England wasn't as strong as one might think. England suffered from a prolonged civil war though the 17th century and then by the late 18thc suffered a colonial revolt that caused a lot of discord at home.
 

Dark Knight

Troll-slayer
2 Badges
Jun 8, 2000
9.512
1
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • 500k Club
Sydney,
I'm not certain about the exact details, but I know that bankruptcies do have an impact in the game. They lower the morale of your armies and lower your stability as well.

You're right about England, though. To outsiders, it seemed almost ungovernable during part of this period.
 

unmerged(212)

Captain
Jun 27, 2000
372
0
Visit site
Sidney,
I don't really know if anyone can make a definative case for the exact causes for the French Revolution. It seems to me though that the history of absolutism created a culture of limited political tolerance. This ultimately turned into a very bloody situation that doesn't parallel anything that occured in England.

Again though, the ultimate issue is how these historical precedents could be incorporated into challenging and innovative game characteristics. My entire goal is to state how games could endeavor to show a long-term impact of cause and effect.
 

unmerged(237)

Recruit
Aug 21, 2000
6
0
Visit site
Dropping my 2cents here...

One of the main causes of the French revolution was the lack of representation the ascending 'bourgeoisie class' had. They had grown rich and were the largest financers of the state, either by tax or by lending, yet they had few sway over how their money was to be spent. Being rich yet having few political power has always been unsettling, even dangerous for the affluent ones. The philosophers of the enlightenment provided them the excuse they were fighting for a lofty reason. ('we fight for equality and liberty for all' sounds better than 'we want more power')
Combine this with a peasantry that had suffered repeated famines, lived in paltry conditions (the English peasantry was reported to live in much better conditions) and the cataclyst of a financial crisis caused by the luxerous living of the court and the aristocracy and military adventures (not from the point of view of the American revolutionaries of course) and its only logical a revolt broke out. The Court had lost its legitimacy.

About Tropico, I've read more detailed previews than the one on Poptop's site and if it's true what they say, Tropico should also have a complex political simulator. For instance, you'll have to consider the wishes of different sides, be careful not to offend the military while keeping the clergy satisfied or consider financial stability while satisfying the needs of the people etc (if anyone's knows the game 'Hidden Agenda', I believe Tropico is supposed to look like it)

Lastly, the only game that could make me enthuse more than EU is a EU set in the imperialism era. :) I especially loved/love building an economy, solving the continuous bottlenecks in labor supply, factory capacities, transport network etc whilst extending the influence of your empire over the globe with your mighty navy of fresh from the shipyards ironclads... *SLOBBER* ;)
 

Doomdark

Design Director
Paradox Staff
61 Badges
Apr 3, 2000
5.434
11.328
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Starvoid
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • War of the Roses
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Dungeonland
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Gettysburg
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Impire
Lastly, the only game that could make me enthuse more than EU is a EU set in the imperialism era.

Personally I am more interested in the age of exploration portrayed in EU, so I am happy just the way it is. :)

Second to that, I would love to play Carthage, Rome, Greece, Persia, India, China, Maya or Inca in the true imperialism era. :p

I would also like to see the EU engine used for a Viking era game. Lastly, I think it could be employed for a killer WW2 game. (What happened to all the grand strategy WW2 games anyway?!)
 

unmerged(212)

Captain
Jun 27, 2000
372
0
Visit site
Cylon -
<chuckle> Quick, wipe off that drool! So how would you implement stability type issues in your dream game? Would you expand the options related goods production so the game reflects at least a partial consumer economy? (the way tobacco was converted to cigars in Imp II). Or would you allow for certain types of infrastructure to be built to improve morale, i.e. a Theatre or Hospital?

Doomie -
It looks like you and I are in the same boat, waiting, waiting, waiting for the game. Yeah, I'm also happy with the current concept of EUlooks, but just for fun... what do you think about the concept of stability? What would be added to your list of suggested tweaks? :)
 

unmerged(237)

Recruit
Aug 21, 2000
6
0
Visit site
Personally I would have loved to see the imp1 engine in a modern time set (post WW1 till present) with an electronics industry, automobiles etc and weaponry, like submarines, jets... I'll stop before I start drooling again. :) But any era, anywhere, seems fine time to me, yet somehow Imp2 isn't as much fun when it comes to building an economy.
Maybe its because its less complex, no more transport network limits or mill capacity limits and less layers of production. (eg timber to lumber to furniture) Maybe its just because of the era, the industrial/imperialism era is my 'favourite' era, yet I'm not really less interested in the exploration era. Maybe its because I no longer can see the factories running on my screen...

Anyway, in the imperialism forum at Sidgames I once expressed my 'vision' of an Imp3, that was set in the modern era. While in Imp2 you could only export consumer goods for cash, it would be possible sell those goods as well to an internal market. And since there are more types of industries you'd have to import consumer goods (like cars) from other 'major powers'. Maybe you could link 'hapiness' to the amount of needs for consumer goods satisfied, combining it with the level of political freedom etc

Sorry I'm getting carried away again. :)

To drop a 2cents on stability; for practicality's sake, you have to keep it somewhat summarised. EU is about managing the general aspects of a country and expanding its power. People don't want to deal with the finesses of domestic such as keeping all interest groups happy whilst dealing with international allainces and colonisation.

Tropico seems more like a game that focuses on domestic politics, and has scant attention on international politics. (you won't be able to consuer neighbouring isles or anything like that)
As I already mentioned before, there's another and rather old, game that centers around domestic politics, Hidden Agenda. You can download it on www.theunderdogs.org/ as abandonware. Try it out, it's fun though somewhat limited.