The complete book of Badboy, take two

[kurtbrian]

I have made some corrections and added some more obejcts


If you have any corrections you are more than welcome.

I'm feeling a bit overburdened at the moment so if someone would like to help me, I would very much like the checked and doublechecked numbers for diplo-annex and inheritance.

DOW = Declaration of WAR
same = same religion as country
other = Other Religion than country
CB = Casus Belli
NOCB = No casus belli
RM = Royal Marriage


Regarding DOW's the numbers below should be cumultive so a DOW without CB and with a truce should give 5

DOW same noCB RM
= 4

DOW same noCB
= 4

DOW same CB RM
= 1

DOW same CB
= 1

DOW other noCB
= 4

DOW other CB
= 1

DOW PAGAN
= 0

DOW same vassal
= 0

DOW other vassal
= 0
these two I don't understand but It seems to be free to delcare war on your vassal, anybody got comments??

DOW other Truce
= 1

DOW same Truce
= 1

1 province received in peace in offensive war with 'shield' aka National province
= 0

1 province received in peace in offensive war without 'shield' aka National province
= 2

1 province received in peace in defensive war with 'shield' aka National province
= 0

1 province received in peace in defensive war without 'shield' aka National province
= 1

1 province received beacuse of enemy goverment falling (Turbo-annexing)
= 3

1 province received in peace both def. and off. against pagans as european
= 0

Military annexation same
= 6 ( JohnMK, I tried it again and it still gives 6 even if I have a shield on their only province)

Military annexation other
= 1
Military annexation of Pagan
= 5 (note, that you don't recieve any additional points if you annex them with more than one province

Comission of Privateers
= 1

Force Vassalize other
= 0

Force Vasssalize same
= 0


Thank you so much for your commets and corrections in my first badboy thread

EDIT: added SM's research result regarding battling pagans as a european

 

[Murmurandus]

Keep up the good work!

 

[Wyvern]

Thanks Kurbrien this is really useful.

Can I ask for one clarrification please? What exactly is a defensive war? i.e. is it:

1. when someone DOW's me.
2. when someone DOW's my ally and I join in
3. when my ally DOW's someone and I join to support him?

I assume it covers 1 and 2, wasn't sure about 3.

Also, I've played Russia and annexed Crimea and only got 1 or 2 at most BB points. I remember because I was surprised it didn't take me into a BB war. I'll got a Byzantine save with a one province Ak koyunla (sp?) left which I can experiment with tonight if you want.

Cheers.

 

[InnocentIII]

Military annexation of same would be 7 in the end, because I'm annexing a one province minor, other would be two. Right?

The numbers are there, and you say it's cumulative, I just want to make sure that cumulative applies to annexations not just DoWs.

Good work, this explains why I was able to get four provinces from Lithuania without much BB (I went back to 'rather bad' very quickly). Maybe I don't want to annex Suzdal after all, just keep getting me into those wars!

 

[Wyvern]

Ok I've tested out annexing a different religion opponent owning one of my core provinces.

Scenario:

I'm Byzantium, declared war on Ak Koyunlu (yep I looked up the spelling ) Gives me 1 BB

Annexed their one remaining province giving me another BB for a total of two.

 

[kurtbrian]

Can I ask for one clarrification please? What exactly is a defensive war?

I would assume that it would be 1 and 2 not 3 just as you thought

Military annexation of same would be 7 in the end, because I'm annexing a one province minor, other would be two. Right?

Yes, you get one bb for declaring war and the 6 for annexing them

And thank you all for the kind replies

 

[Secret Master]

Kurtbrian,

If what your information says is true, then you end up getting BB penalties that are just as heinous for DOWing people of a different religion than you, CB or no CB, as for DOWing same religion as you (Pagans excepted). If this is true, then the game makes no real difference between beating up co-religionists and beating up infidels, unless you actually militarily annex them.

I am now tempted to do some of my own resaerch into this. I dont like the idea of recieving lots of BB for DOWing without CB those who are infidels and whatnot. Christians DOWing Christians and getting lots of BB is one thing. Christians DOWing hindus and building up BB is quite another. There should be some penalty, but it should not match the penalty for same religion.

Does that make any sense?

 

[unmerged(3999)]

Originally posted by kurtbrian


I would assume that it would be 1 and 2 not 3 just as you thought

And remember, even if a war started with a DOW against your ally, you can turn it into an offensive war for yourself with a separate peace.

Anybody know if force-conversion gives BB?

Good work Kurtbrian!

 

[InnocentIII]

And remember, even if a war started with a DOW against your ally, you can turn it into an offensive war for yourself with a separate peace.

I don't believe that this is correct. I did not check the numbers, but I was at rather bad, very near very bad, picked up four provinces from Lithuania in a separate peace, who had DoWed my ally, and was back to rather bad in only a few years (~20). Not the best example, given the uncertainties, but I do not think I got 8 BB, just the 4.

It would seem to me that the game would store offensive/defensive war solely at the time the war started, and not make distinct calculations for separate peace deals. Defensive means the province loser was on the side who initiated, Offensive means the province gainer was on the side who initiated.

FWIW - I'd like to see 3 included in defensive. Hey, as long as it wasn't me who DoWed, then I think I'm the good guy

 

[Grunthex]

As for the separate peace turning a defensive into an offensive, what he means is this.

Let's say A, B and C declare war on D, E (you) and F.

At the moment, you're a defender, and any provinces you take will reflect this. But let's say you (E) sign a separate peace with C, because you don't want (D) ending the war on you.

At this point, you are in a separate war versus A and B, and usually you're the attacker at that point. But not always. No idea how this works.

 

[Petrarca]

Originally posted by Secret Master
Kurtbrian,

If what your information says is true, then you end up getting BB penalties that are just as heinous for DOWing people of a different religion than you, CB or no CB, as for DOWing same religion as you (Pagans excepted). If this is true, then the game makes no real difference between beating up co-religionists and beating up infidels, unless you actually militarily annex them.

I am now tempted to do some of my own resaerch into this. I dont like the idea of recieving lots of BB for DOWing without CB those who are infidels and whatnot. Christians DOWing Christians and getting lots of BB is one thing. Christians DOWing hindus and building up BB is quite another. There should be some penalty, but it should not match the penalty for same religion.

Does that make any sense?

I don't quite like the way it's working now, either. At least the pagans are BB-less.

 

[kurtbrian]

I am now tempted to do some of my own resaerch into this. I dont like the idea of recieving lots of BB for DOWing without CB those who are infidels and whatnot. Christians DOWing Christians and getting lots of BB is one thing. Christians DOWing hindus and building up BB is quite another. There should be some penalty, but it should not match the penalty for same religion.

I totally agree that it seems a bit odd that there isn'ta huge penalty on declaring war on your fellow religionist.

 

[Castellon]

I wonder if any special rules apply to the papal states. Eg. do you get more BB for annexing Roma.

 

[kurtbrian]

Don't think so, but you could start a game, annex the Papal state and check your bb-score...

And if there are any weird results post them here

 

[JohnMK]

Originally posted by Secret Master
Christians DOWing Christians and getting lots of BB is one thing. Christians DOWing hindus and building up BB is quite another. There should be some penalty, but it should not match the penalty for same religion.

Does that make any sense?

You are 100% right.

 

[Secret Master]

Originally posted by Petrarca

I don't quite like the way it's working now, either. At least the pagans are BB-less.

Err, they SHOULD be BB-less.

Im doing some research, but wuth teh patch installed on my machine, Im getting a steady 2 BB per pagan province and 4 BB for no CB DOWs against them. I havent counted the military annexation penalty, but I think that is still there too... Assuming no one else, does, I will post more information as I figure it out.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Secret Master


Err, they SHOULD be BB-less.

Im doing some research, but wuth teh patch installed on my machine, Im getting a steady 2 BB per pagan province and 4 BB for no CB DOWs against them. I havent counted the military annexation penalty, but I think that is still there too... Assuming no one else, does, I will post more information as I figure it out.

Are you getting BB for taking pagans with a European nation or a non-European? It should only be free for Europeans AFAIK.

From the readme:
- There is no longer a badboy penalty for taking provinces from a pagan nation if you are european.

 

[Secret Master]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen


Are you getting BB for taking pagans with a European nation or a non-European? It should only be free for Europeans AFAIK.

From the readme:
- There is no longer a badboy penalty for taking provinces from a pagan nation if you are european.

Im getting the BB as Portugal no less...

Heh, I figured as Portugal Id go and annex the African Pagans to beef up my empire without upsetting everyone.... Boy was I wrong!

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Secret Master


Im getting the BB as Portugal no less...

Heh, I figured as Portugal Id go and annex the African Pagans to beef up my empire without upsetting everyone.... Boy was I wrong!

Quaint. Please sail west and annex the Mayans and see if you get the same result. This sounds decidedly weird!

 

[Secret Master]

Ok, I did some experimenting, and here is what i came up with.

It seems I was wrong in my earlier assesment of the BB situation. I am getting BB from pagans, but only in the following way.

5 BB for military annexation.

After several experiments, I noted Im not getting BB with just taking provinces or for any sort of DOW.

After chatting with BiB about it in the bug forum, it seems we are supposed to get the 5 BB for military annexation. So, this would not be a bug.

But it is still worth noting in the BB FAQ that you are creating Kurtbrian. If you fully military annex a pagan country as a European, you still get 5 BB for the actual annexation.