The Command and Control system still needs work.

[Lord of Beer]

Few hours in. First problems are apparent:

1. Certain traits are not explained. For example 'Cavalry Officer' gives 'Cavalry Leader experience factor: 100%', with the tooltip just saying 'trained as a cavalry officer'. What does this mean? Does the general gain XP faster when leading cavarly battalions? If so, why not tell us? Seems like lazy design - none of the tooltips really show any information useful to the player, they are just 'flavour' text.

2. Additional Army Groups cannot be added directly to an Army from the control UI on the bottom of the screen. Instead, they must be added through the command menu on the top right. It seems strange to require the player to use two different UI components to accomplish a task that could previously be done from one. (EDIT: You can right click the army groups onto the army to do this)

3. Generals cannot be shuffled around on the bottom side of the screen. It would be nice to position one on the left for my left front, one on the right for my right front etc. Devs, you've spoiled us with the production UI shuffle ability, now it needs to go everywhere! In general I found it too hard to figure out which general was controlling what. Maybe they need to flash or something when I mouse over a division under their command.

4. 24 divisions per general is too few. It adds a huge amount of extra micromanagement for little apparent gain in terms of gameplay. This is even playing as France today with only 60 * 40 width divisions! I don't know how players playing as China or USSR with hundreds of divisions will do it. I think the 24 divisions needs to be lifted to 72 as a base, or the extra division capability made easier to acquire. Maybe with a bit more play I'll get used to it, but for a player who prefers to micro troops manually in many instances (and with front shuffling a deadly problem when your troops lose entrenchment during a critical defense - eg. France) it has made the game less fun to play.

5. 'Last Stand' ability is literally unusable for large armies with big divisions. You can only hold a maximum of 100 command points, but with 19 divisions of 40 width, the command points needed to conduct the 'last stand' was greater than 100! This should be recalculated so that even a 50 width division of 24 divisions can still use the order.

6. The division capacity limit seems to change randomly. Playing as China, it jumped from 72 to 24 on multiple generals for no apparent reason. EDIT: When you have a garrison order, you magically can control 72 units :-/


Probably more to come as I continue playing. I'll add some more points based on discussion.

 

[Corner79]

3. Generals cannot be shuffled around on the bottom side of the screen. It would be nice to position one on the left for my left front, one on the right for my right front etc. Devs, you've spoiled us with the production UI shuffle ability, now it needs to go everywhere! In general I found it too hard to figure out which general was controlling what. Maybe they need to flash or something when I mouse over a division under their command.

This.

Even in 1.4.2, I was wanting to shuffle around the generals with ease. Now in 1.5 it is more apparent

 

[Zwirbaum]

Few hours in. First problems are apparent:

1. Certain traits are not explained. For example 'Cavalry Officer' gives 'Cavalry Leader experience factor: 100%', with the tooltip just saying 'trained as a cavalry officer'. What does this mean? Does the general gain XP faster when leading cavarly battalions? If so, why not tell us? Seems like lazy design. None of the tooltips really show any information useful to the player.

2. Additional Army Groups cannot be added directly to an Army from the control UI on the bottom of the screen. Instead, they must be added through the command menu on the top right. It seems strange to require the player to use two different UI components to accomplish a task that could previously be done from one.

3. Generals cannot be shuffled around on the bottom side of the screen. It would be nice to position one on the left for my left front, one on the right for my right front etc. Devs, you've spoiled us with the production UI shuffle ability, now it needs to go everywhere! In general I found it too hard to figure out which general was controlling what. Maybe they need to flash or something when I mouse over a division under their command.

4. 24 divisions per general is too few. It adds a huge amount of extra micromanagement for little apparent gain in terms of gameplay. This is even playing as France today with only 60 * 40 width divisions! I don't know how players playing as China or USSR with hundreds of divisions will do it. I think the 24 divisions needs to be lifted to 30 as a base, or the extra division capability made easier to acquire. Maybe with a bit more play I'll get used to it, but for a player who prefers to micro troops manually in many instances (and with front shuffling a deadly problem when your troops lose entrenchment during a critical defense - eg. France) it has made the game less fun to play.

5. 'Last Stand' ability is literally unusable for large armies with big divisions. You can only hold a maximum of 100 command points, but with 19 divisions of 40 width, the command points needed to conduct the 'last stand' was greater than 100! This should be recalculated so that even a 50 width division of 24 divisions can still use the order.


Probably more to come as I continue playing. I'll add some more points based on discussion.

1. It gives the more XP towards earned trait called Cavalry Leader. Basically they level up in that trait twice as fast.
2. ? What do you mean exactly? - That you can't create more army groups from the bottom, or what?

 

[Lord of Beer]

Alright, so after a few more hours, I have to say... I prefer the old system. The ability to just throw hundreds of divisions against a frontline and put a field marshall on them was substantially easier and better than having to add multiple different generals and then relying on the battleplan system working.

There are still quality of life things like if you have two divisions selected from two different generals, pressing H to stop their attack won't work - you have to select each one separately. Overall it feels like the new system was just awkwardly plunked on top of the old one.

Generals don't see to level up very fast, and there are too many picks in their trait trees. It just seems confusing and overall unnecessary extra complexity.

The whole change feels to me like something you would see in a Dawn of War type game. When rampaging across the world in World Conquest, it gets in the way. Heck, even defending France, it just gets in the way.

Plus the fact that the general capacity is based on divisions, when those divisions could be 1 width or 50 width.

I logged into the game again, to try out USSR after earlier playing China and France. I saw my 133 divisions, and thought if I could be bothered assigning generals against them, making them all fit into neat blocks of 24.... nope. Its too much work. I quit the game.

 

[myzael]

6. The division capacity limit seems to change randomly. Playing as China, it jumped from 72 to 24 on multiple generals for no apparent reason.

The command limit raises to 72 for garrison orders. I don't think that's explained anywhere in the UI though.

 

[Lord of Beer]

The command limit raises to 72 for garrison orders. I don't think that's explained anywhere in the UI though.

That's helpful, but just doesn't make any sense. Why can a general magically control 3x the amount if they are garrisoning an area?

The only way to save the system is to increase the general cap to 72 for all generals. Its just way, way too much micro right now. An unpleasant amount.

 

[Zwirbaum]

That's helpful, but just doesn't make any sense. Why can a general magically control 3x the amount if they are garrisoning an area?

The only way to save the system is to increase the general cap to 72 for all generals. Its just way, way too much micro right now. An unpleasant amount.

Because Garrison order doesn't give you planning bonus, and it's basically managed entirely by AI? You can't unassign units from Garrison order other way than removing them from army using said order. It is actually quite good change/idea IMO.

 

[Karaya 1]

That's helpful, but just doesn't make any sense. Why can a general magically control 3x the amount if they are garrisoning an area?

The only way to save the system is to increase the general cap to 72 for all generals. Its just way, way too much micro right now. An unpleasant amount.

i literally said the very same thing. I was trying to play china as 1st playthrough with the dlc. Got wrecked by the whole shuffling divisions around because just one army of that fieldmarshal got its front widened and then i had to adjust constantly and could never build up any entrenchment nessecary to fight them with the ridiculous -50% on offense and defence.

I do like that the garrison generals can have 72 divisions. Otherwise id probably just go mad trying to garrison a large empire.

 

[Edungeon]

I like the fact that nations that didn't have a big officer corps have to spend a lot of pp to stay competitive. And don't feel it is a lot more micro with the option to use fronts in the army group

 

[LordLoko]

Before the patch I used to use mostly 24 Divisions generals (Yes, even USSR). So, for micro: Git gud

But you do have a point, asigning front lines with Field Marshals right now is kind of broken right now when I try to asign my generals instead of using the Field Marshal.

 

[RisingSun]

I do agreed with that, wouldn't hurt to add a trait that allow to control more divisions or brigades. I wouldn't imagine adding Lieut. Generals or even Major Generals to the game that allow only control number of generals from previous Hearts of Iron Series and adding traits from there to be more interesting. But that is a big IF. If they did, gonna have to bring up a lot more generals to choose from. But a Major General shouldn't command more than three divisions at least, while Lieut. Generals having six, etc.

 

[Lord of Beer]

Before the patch I used to use mostly 24 Divisions generals (Yes, even USSR). So, for micro: Git gud

But you do have a point, asigning front lines with Field Marshals right now is kind of broken right now when I try to asign my generals instead of using the Field Marshal.

I suspect that this change just writes off a whole playstyle. I know there are some folks who like to painstakingly plan out every detail, and take days to finish games.

In fact maybe the micro wont be so bad in multiplayer, since the games take 6 hours anyway.

But for SP, where I want to just blast through the world as Germany after work, 'finishing' the game in a few hours, it really hurts. Its not really a matter of 'gitting gud', its just a chore. Plus, its kind of silly that the division count is not based on the width of the divisions (not that I'm suggesting that it should), which really nerfs everything except 40 width.

Its taken a game where you could focus on the production, research and grand strategy side of war, to one where you are literally microing which general takes the new division you just trained... Its an unpleasant change that doesn't suit the game.

 

[Zwirbaum]

I do agreed with that, wouldn't hurt to add a trait that allow to control more divisions or brigades. I wouldn't imagine adding Lieut. Generals or even Major Generals to the game that allow only control number of generals from previous Hearts of Iron Series and adding traits from there to be more interesting. But that is a big IF. If they did, gonna have to bring up a lot more generals to choose from. But a Major General shouldn't command more than three divisions at least, while Lieut. Generals having six, etc.

There is such trait. Skilled Staffer - you can earn that trait, and it will give +6 to limit of the divisions you can effectively command.

 

[Eh up me duck]

Alright, so after a few more hours, I have to say... I prefer the old system. The ability to just throw hundreds of divisions against a frontline and put a field marshall on them was substantially easier and better than having to add multiple different generals and then relying on the battleplan system working.

There are still quality of life things like if you have two divisions selected from two different generals, pressing H to stop their attack won't work - you have to select each one separately. Overall it feels like the new system was just awkwardly plunked on top of the old one.

Generals don't see to level up very fast, and there are too many picks in their trait trees. It just seems confusing and overall unnecessary extra complexity.

The whole change feels to me like something you would see in a Dawn of War type game. When rampaging across the world in World Conquest, it gets in the way. Heck, even defending France, it just gets in the way.

Plus the fact that the general capacity is based on divisions, when those divisions could be 1 width or 50 width.

I logged into the game again, to try out USSR after earlier playing China and France. I saw my 133 divisions, and thought if I could be bothered assigning generals against them, making them all fit into neat blocks of 24.... nope. Its too much work. I quit the game.

I felt the same. I've played two games now, as Germany and China. Both times it felt like I was spending most of my time fighting with the UI rather than the AI. It gets frustrating very quickly.

 

[TorAndreKongelf]

You can change the view of the Field Marshal. By clicking on the little tree-icon under the Field Marshal view. You will see all the divisions under the Field Marshal, making the generals invisible. And than you can assign all your 100 divisions to a frontline like before.

I have found that I could do all the old stuff I could before, now as well. So I it maybe that I do not entirely understand your issue.

 

[TorAndreKongelf]

I felt the same. I've played two games now, as Germany and China. Both times it felt like I was spending most of my time fighting with the UI rather than the AI. It gets frustrating very quickly.

It probably just takes a bit time get used to the changes. Objectively speaking it should be better as you can do the same stuff as before, but now you have even more possibilites.

 

[Eh up me duck]

How can it be better when it takes more clicks to do the same thing as before? Yeah the hierarchy of leadership is a cool idea but it's not enough to compensate for the increased complexity.

 

[myzael]

You can't unassign units from Garrison order other way than removing them from army using said order.

Oh the pesky devs, it was possible in 1.4 IIRC.

 

[a_sophist]

It probably just takes a bit time get used to the changes. Objectively speaking it should be better as you can do the same stuff as before, but now you have even more possibilites.

My particular problem is that's it's a nerf to org spam. When you have 800-1000 divisions arranged in a defense in depth, this system falls apart, especially at a quality of life level. Until the AI proves to me that it's decent, however, I won't be deterred. I'd rather take the hit from not stacking FM/General on all my divisions and be able to freely micro than adhere to this system.

 

[PhillyPhan321]

Few hours in. First problems are apparent:


4. 24 divisions per general is too few. It adds a huge amount of extra micromanagement for little apparent gain in terms of gameplay. This is even playing as France today with only 60 * 40 width divisions! I don't know how players playing as China or USSR with hundreds of divisions will do it. I think the 24 divisions needs to be lifted to 72 as a base, or the extra division capability made easier to acquire. Maybe with a bit more play I'll get used to it, but for a player who prefers to micro troops manually in many instances (and with front shuffling a deadly problem when your troops lose entrenchment during a critical defense - eg. France) it has made the game less fun to play.

5. 'Last Stand' ability is literally unusable for large armies with big divisions. You can only hold a maximum of 100 command points, but with 19 divisions of 40 width, the command points needed to conduct the 'last stand' was greater than 100! This should be recalculated so that even a 50 width division of 24 divisions can still use the order.

6. The division capacity limit seems to change randomly. Playing as China, it jumped from 72 to 24 on multiple generals for no apparent reason. EDIT: When you have a garrison order, you magically can control 72 units :-/


Probably more to come as I continue playing. I'll add some more points based on discussion.

4. Most Armies did not have more then 24 divisions in them. The largest US army in WW2 the 3rd army had 18 divisions in it at it's largest point. And you can still make one large front with your field marshal commanding the army group using all his sub generals and it works the same as using a field marshal before with now being limited to the 5x24 max divisions (unless some generals are doing garrison work then they get 72).

5. You don't need to select your whole army to do a command. You can select individual divisions or a group of a few and issue a command and it will use less command power. The command power is to high for you because you are selecting the whole army.