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DasGuntLord01

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Do you know if there's an explicit list of de jure titles somewhere in the CK2 data files? I would need that data to reallocate titles around.

Perhaps. If you look at \common\landed_titles.txt, it lists the landed titles in heirarchy, and I believe that this determines de-jure vassals. It looks like this:

Code:
k_germany = {
		color={ 150 150 150 }
		color2={ 220 220 20 }
		
		culture = german
		
		capital = 121 #Nassau
		
		d_holstein = {
			color={ 152 112 112 }
			color2={ 255 255 255 }
		
			capital = 263 #Holstein
		
			c_hamburg = {
				color={ 225 225 225 }
				color2={ 255 255 255 }
			
				b_hamburg = {
				}
				b_altona = {
				}
				b_harburg = {
				}
				b_brunsbuttel = {
				}
				b_buxtehude = {
				}
				b_dithmarschen = {
				}
				b_niendorf = {
				}
				b_lokstedt = {
				}
			}
			c_lubeck = {
				color={ 142 142 142 }
				color2={ 255 255 255 }
				
				b_lubeck = {
				}
				b_ratzeburg = {
				}
				b_travemunde = {
				}
				b_wulfsdorf = {
				}
				b_schlutup = {
				}
				b_starigard = {
				}
				b_weslo = {
				}
				b_bucu = {
				}
			}
			c_holstein = {
				color={ 219 219 219 }
				color2={ 255 255 255 }
				
				b_kiel = {
				}
				b_gottorp = {
				}
				b_itzehoe = {
				}
				b_reinholdsburg = {
				}
				b_elmshorn = {
				}
				b_gluckstadt = {
				}
				b_lauenburg = {
				}
				b_segeberg = {
				}
			}
			c_bremen = {
				color={ 216 216 216 }
				color2={ 255 255 255 }
				
				b_bremen = {
				}
				b_hoya = {
				}
				b_verden = {
				}
				b_stade = {
				}
				b_blumenthal = {
				}
				b_ritzebuttel = {
				}
				b_achim = {
				}
				b_beverstedt = {
				} 
			}
		}
 

KubaBVB09

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I don't want to seem pushy or anything but what's the approximate time this will take to be useable? Weeks? Months? I want to play a grand campaign all the way through all the games and am wondering whether I should wait for this to be done or if I should manually change the EU3 map to my world with an editor. ><

Thanks for all your work!
 

DasGuntLord01

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I don't want to seem pushy or anything but what's the approximate time this will take to be useable? Weeks? Months? I want to play a grand campaign all the way through all the games and am wondering whether I should wait for this to be done or if I should manually change the EU3 map to my world with an editor. ><

Thanks for all your work!

Months, probably.
 

rho

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I know that actual coding probably isn't anywhere near this point yet, but I've been thinking about EU3 domestic policy sliders. Generally, I think it should be possible to distil a lot of CK2 data down to EU3 sliders.

Centralization/decentralization. This could depend on crown authority and the size of the ruler's demesne as compared to the size of the entire realm. Something along the lines of:

centralisation = crown authority + floor (5 * (Holdings in ruler demesne / holdings in realm))

where autonomous vassals = 0 and absolute authority = 5. This would give high centralisation to realms with high crown authority, and small realms where the ruler held most of the territory personally.

For plutocracy/aristocracy, this should be tied to the relative numbers of castle and city holdings, and the power of their rulers. So, consider all the titles within the realm (baron, count, duke, king, and emperor level). Discard those titles which are held by bishops. Compare the number that are held by aristocrats (baron, count, duke, etc.) with the number held by plutocrats (mayors, doges, etc.). Equal numbers gives a 0 on this slider in EU3. One side having double the titles of the other pushes the slider all the way to that side. Anywhere in between scales accordingly. The aim here is that most AIs should tend towards aristocracy, but that you can get to plutocracy either through building lots of cities, or through elevating mayors to positions of power. I'm not sure how well my numbers would work out, though.

Serfdom/free subjects. I've no clue what would have an effect on this.

Innovative/narrowminded. Not sure of numbers here, but I'd say that free investiture and universities should step towards innovative, whereas papal investiture, numbers of bishoprics, having prince bishops or higher, and monastic schools should all step towards narrowminded.

Mercantilism/free trade. The obvious one here would be city taxation levels, but mapping 4 levels of city tax levels to 11 possible slider values seems inadequate. I'm not sure what else would go here, though.

Offensive/defensive. Ratio of number of offensive buildings to number of defensive buildings, maybe? I don't know.

Land/naval. Ports, obviously, would push towards naval. Maybe some function of the percentage of all counties which had a port? I'm not sure what would push towards land, though.

Quality/quantity. Every point of levies above "normal" level in your laws should count as one point towards quantity (so, maximum of one point from feudal levies and two points each from city and church levies, for a maximum of 5). Every 20% of applicable holdings that has the special culture building (longbows, caballero, etc.) counts as a point towards quality.

Thoughts?
 

DasGuntLord01

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I just played around with some equations and some numbers. My feeling is that counting holdings or titles will force the centralisation a bit too low. I'm tempted to say that we should leave holdings alone, and count only crown authority, where no crown authority = 5, and absolute crown authority = 1. You can see my notes in the spoiler.


Using crown authority for centralisation is obvious. I think that we should count titles instead of holdings, which included all the holdings, provinces, kingdoms, and duchies that the ruler holds.

You equation, however, makes it possible to be completely centralised, something that no 1399 EU3 government type allows, (without penalty). So, we don't need that extra factor of 5 in the equation. We also need to invert it, because the actual EU3 value for full decentralisation is 5. Also, there's only 5 possible values for crown authority, so they'd have to be values from 0 to 4 (or 1 to 5, but I will use the former). If we say that centralisation is

centralisation = 5 - ( crown_authority * (ruler_titles / total_realm_titles) )

Then we have a value between 1 and 5 based primarily on crown authority, and how many titles are directly under the control of the leader. (Where 1 is the most centralised, and 5 is the most decentralised).

One is tempted to say that barony holdings are not counted in this equation. If baronies are counted as titles, then centralisation will almost always be low. You might think that this is acceptable or not.

Anyways, to put this to the test, I'll run the numbers with my current england game:

Total major titles: 44
Kings titles: 11
Authority: 2

Centralisation = 5 - ( 2 * (11 / 44)) = 4.5

If we round off, we get 5, if we round down we get 4. So, a large realm, and a medium crown authority means mostly decentralised. If I were to have maximum crown authority, this would still be low.

Centralisation = 5 - ( 5 * (11/44)) = 3.75, or 3 or 4.

Mercantalism vs Free Trade: Taxes is the right thing to use. There are three taxes, each with 4 values ( 0 to 3). If you sum these, you get a value from 0 to 9 (10 values). The simple way is to say that either full free trade is impossible, or full mercantalism is impossible, or we divide the value by two and get a more "realistic" value between 0 and 5ish (which is to say, between -2 and +2).


Offensive / Defensive:
Offensive/defensive. Ratio of number of offensive buildings to number of defensive buildings, maybe? I don't know.

By offensive structures, do you mean buildings that increase levy size in some way? The only problem is that a large levy and small castles does not imply an offensive doctrine.


Serfdom vs Free Subjects: Intersting. Obviously, everyone in a feudal fiefdom is probably a serf. The only thing I can think of is taxes, and there should be no way that the slider would ever start on the "free" side.


Quality/quantity. Every point of levies above "normal" level in your laws should count as one point towards quantity (so, maximum of one point from feudal levies and two points each from city and church levies, for a maximum of 5). Every 20% of applicable holdings that has the special culture building (longbows, caballero, etc.) counts as a point towards quality.

There's a "normal" level? What is that? How do you calculate it?
 

Idhrendur

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I've added a mechanic for the HRE to be converted (or at least the HRE provinces).
Also, European provinces are visible to the world.
Also, a release:
Code:
Revision	Log Message
---------	----------------
18		Added missing CK2World files
19		Read in titles
20		Create tree of vassal/liege relationships
21		Country Mappings
22		Iberian Peninsula and Med Islands mapped	
23		Italy and Scandiwegia mapped
24		England save from rho
25		Country Mappings: Independent kingoms
26		European province ownership
27		Merge
28		1-to-1 titular kingdoms mapped
29		Add HRE conversion mechanic
30		European provinces visible to all
31		Merge

As will be apparent, the rest of Europe's provinces need to be mapped. And then we can start playing with mechanics of merging nations/releasing vassals/etc.
 

DasGuntLord01

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Just did france, and I'm beginning to dislike the messiness of the procedure, and I wonder if anyone else has some tips for me...

The way I do it, usually, is to begin with the most easily identifiable landmarks (coastlines, inevitably) and once they are done, I start spiralling my way inland, doing my best to match up borders, and trying to make sure that every province gets at least one province mapped to it, and visa versa. Inevitably, as I approach the centre of the region, things start to look very wrong indeed. Is this to do with two different kinds of map projection (ie: the land mass is actually a different shape in each game)? Is there a better way of doing mappings, or is this sought of thing un-avoidable? And finally, does it really matter if the inland provinces don't really gel properly, as long as the coastlines and borders are as good as we can get them?
 

dtremenak

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The way I do it, usually, is to begin with the most easily identifiable landmarks (coastlines, inevitably) and once they are done, I start spiralling my way inland, doing my best to match up borders, and trying to make sure that every province gets at least one province mapped to it, and visa versa. Inevitably, as I approach the centre of the region, things start to look very wrong indeed. Is this to do with two different kinds of map projection (ie: the land mass is actually a different shape in each game)? Is there a better way of doing mappings, or is this sought of thing un-avoidable? And finally, does it really matter if the inland provinces don't really gel properly, as long as the coastlines and borders are as good as we can get them?

That's about the approach I take too. More inland landmarks improves it some; I try to map a handful of major cities in the region first (e.g. for France, I'd figure out which provinces contained Paris, Bordeaux, Toulouse, Lyon, and Dijon in each, and map those first). Also mapping equally-named provinces at the beginning helps too (it's one reason the province names are shown in the tooltips). As to the second question, given that we don't know where any borders will actually be at conversion, I think it behooves us to get every province at least reasonably close.
 

Idhrendur

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I've added code to output EU3 nations into the save. Currently, they get their government from the history files. Ones that get mapped to a CK2 title have that information erased, to be replaced by a converted government.

So, we need to decide how we convert governments. I imagine it'll be simple, but I'm not sure how CK2 stores the data we care about, nor the full variety of starting governments in EU3. Or, starting until 1453, really.
 

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I've added code to output EU3 nations into the save. Currently, they get their government from the history files. Ones that get mapped to a CK2 title have that information erased, to be replaced by a converted government.

So, we need to decide how we convert governments. I imagine it'll be simple, but I'm not sure how CK2 stores the data we care about, nor the full variety of starting governments in EU3. Or, starting until 1453, really.

For the life of me, I can't find any government information in the files. I suspect it's a derived (or hard coded) attribute that is not stored in the save. I'll have to suss it out later, and see how our countries get their government types.
 

Idhrendur

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As far as I can see it, our possible output governments are:

  • Feudal Monarchy
  • Empire
  • Theocracy
  • Papacy
  • Merchant Republic
  • Noble Republic
  • Steppe Horde

And some ideas for conversion rules:

Feudal Monarchy: the default government type
Empire: given to holders of one of the empire-level titles
Theocracy: those Bishop-ruled territories
Papacy: the Papal States gets it
Merchant Republic: those Doge-ruled territories
Noble Republic: Territories that would be Feudal Monarchies but have elective governments
Steppe Horde: The three Mongol nations get these

Assuming this is a workable model, I have a few uncertanties. First, are there any Noble Republics in 1399-1453 EU3? If not, we should perhaps leave this government out. Also, is the elective law a strong enough indicator? Second, can the hordes settle down in the CK2 timeframe and become ordinary nations? And can ordinary nations become hordes? I seem to remember both of those being possible in DV.
 

tamius23

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First, are there any Noble Republics in 1399-1453 EU3?

Tuscany is, as is Tibet, as far as I remember.

Second, can the hordes settle down in the CK2 timeframe and become ordinary nations? And can ordinary nations become hordes? I seem to remember both of those being possible in DV.

I don't think so, from my experience playing as the Ilkhanate, but I'm not certain.
 

Idhrendur

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It's probably a good idea to say what I've done with the HRE so that we can discuss it.

Currently, there's a line in config.txt that allows you declare a title the HRE. All titles immediately below this one will become independent. All territory held by these titles is made HRE territory. This goes down to the barony level, so can include EU3 provinces that HRE members only have cores on.

I'm thinking that all de jure territory of the empire should be made HRE territory as well.

Beyond that, all we need for the HRE to exist is to list the current emperor's country tag. I've written code that will allow me to import all the CK2 characters, but it doesn't quite work yet. Once I get it working, it should be fairly easy to determine who holds the HRE title, determine their (primary) nation, and list it.

Of course, then it's best to also include the electors. I've never been an HRE member in any of my CK2 games, so can someone describe the election mechanics to me (or point out a guide that descibes them)?
 

Idhrendur

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Speaking of characters, how do you all think we should convert character attributes? I propose the following:

ADM = ( stewardship + intrigue/3 + learning/3 ) * X
DIP = ( diplomacy + intrigue/3 + learning/3 ) * X
MIL = ( martial + intrigue/3 + learning/3 ) * X

where X is some scaling factor.

Finally, truncate the fractional parts off. Then sum them and add them to the leader's strongest stat.
 

tamius23

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What will you do for the character's heirs? If they are very young, their stats will be near zero, but if they are over sixteen, will they be imported?
 

unmerged(178779)

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Assuming this is a workable model, I have a few uncertanties. First, are there any Noble Republics in 1399-1453 EU3? If not, we should perhaps leave this government out. Also, is the elective law a strong enough indicator?

I do not think elective governments should be changed to noble republics. Kingdoms like the Scandinavian kingdoms were still elective in the CKII sense until way after 1453. Denmark was for example elective until 1660. So I do think elective governments should be changed to feudal monarchies.

I think that the idea from Hair to the Throne is that merchant republics controls a Center of Trade. Hence Ragussa was change from being a merchant republic in Nomine to being a noble republic in Heir to the Throne. So republics could in CKII could change to a Merchant republic if they are going to control a Center of Trade, and noble republic otherwise. On the other hand there are countries in EU3 which start as Administrative Republics, as for example Switzerland and Aachen. So that type of government could also be used.

It should also be noted that several of the Eastern European countries start EU3 as Despotic Monarchies, for example Georgia, Muscowy and most of the other Russian countries. So some countries could also be changed to this form of governments.
 

DasGuntLord01

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Feudal Monarchy: the default government type
Empire: given to holders of one of the empire-level titles
Theocracy: those Bishop-ruled territories
Papacy: the Papal States gets it
Merchant Republic: those Doge-ruled territories
Noble Republic: Territories that would be Feudal Monarchies but have elective governments
Steppe Horde: The three Mongol nations get these

These are pretty spot on, though I also wonder if Elective Monarchies = Noble Republics.
 

Idhrendur

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Yeah, I wasn't too sure myself, and Helge's analysis convinced me. And pointed out some things I missed. How about:

Feudal Monarchy: the default government type
Despotic Monarchy: replaces feudal monarchy if there are a sufficiently low numbers of vassals
Empire: given to holders of one of the empire-level titles
Theocracy: default title for church lands
Papacy: the Papacy
Noble Republic: default for republics
Merchant Republic: republics that contain a COT once converted
Administrative Republic: ???
Steppe Horde: Mongols