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Pode

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Historical as a concept goes right out the window as soon as Mongols invade Sweden.

Edit. I'm working on observer games. Will convert and post logs as soon as I can get 2 or 3.
Awesome. But if I can impose on you, the thing I need most is day one never unpaused games for 1.1.1300 and 1.1.1337. Those are hard defined actual history as it happened as modeled in CK2. Under the hood of EU3 there's a model of actual historical tech that reaches back to 1300 even though you can't start an actual game that early. I need to translate between the CK2 model and the EU3 model, so I need the most historical converter logs I can get from that 37 year period where they overlap. Observe games I have to average out (minimize the effects of those Mongol invasions of Sweden) before I can compare the models.
 

Pode

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No dice. The unplayed saves make the converter crash.
Well, at least we know it's not just me then, so that's something.
 

legionario1986

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What currently happens is that a learning score is computed based on how many schools and universities are in the CK2 provinces that get merged into an EU3 province. I'm not sure exactly how that score is processed into tech groups right now, but I do know that no one, including the mod leader who coded it, likes it and we all want it changed. I'd proposed an alternate method that everyone seemed interested in seeing the results of, but I need converter logs for unplayed games starting on Jan 1 1300, Jan 1 1337, and ideally a bunch of observe games dating to Jan 1 1399 or later. Since I can't get 0.6C to convert a game for me, I can't get those logs, and I can't test my method against them to see if it works any better or is just a different flavor of wrong. If you guys can convert unplayed games from those dates, please post your converter log files and I'll crunch them.

Historical as a concept goes right out the window as soon as Mongols invade Sweden.

Edit. I'm working on observer games. Will convert and post logs as soon as I can get 2 or 3.

Ok, I'm with you. I don't like it because I think the actual conversion of tech groups is wrong. Any other idea?
 

magritte2

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Ok, I'm with you. Maybe my first analysis wasn't accurate enought but what I can't accept is that Great Britain, Castile, France or anyone become muslim techgroup because of the conquest of any province in the north of africa or asia... we can make that conversion considering culture and religion, or only culture, and let people choose betwen that new way of conversion (more historical) or the way is being converted at these moment in configuration.txt

I was thinking that it was the ruler's culture, not the provinces that should determine tech group for research purposes. EU3 allows different tech groups for research purposes and units, so a north-African based Great Britain could have western tech but muslim units because of the culture of its provinces. I suppose you could have a situation where the ruler of Great Britain was Maghreb Arabic, but I doubt that's going to happen very often. You could also attach tech to the country tags themselves, but that brings up its own issues because of tag assignment. In my game a monstrously large Byzantine Empire had a vassal Despot of Nubia. Nubia converts as NUB-Funj (in Raziot's converter) logically enough, but as an orthodox, greek nation, I'm happier with it having eastern tech than African.
 

legionario1986

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I was thinking that it was the ruler's culture, not the provinces that should determine tech group for research purposes. EU3 allows different tech groups for research purposes and units, so a north-African based Great Britain could have western tech but muslim units because of the culture of its provinces. I suppose you could have a situation where the ruler of Great Britain was Maghreb Arabic, but I doubt that's going to happen very often. You could also attach tech to the country tags themselves, but that brings up its own issues because of tag assignment. In my game a monstrously large Byzantine Empire had a vassal Despot of Nubia. Nubia converts as NUB-Funj (in Raziot's converter) logically enough, but as an orthodox, greek nation, I'm happier with it having eastern tech than African.

That could be better. What do rest of humans think?
 

Pode

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This is the method I'm trying to test out with unplayed 1300 and 1337 saves
CK2 tech levels from an untouched 1300 start map directly to EU3 tech level 0.

The tech groups affect learning in EU3 as follows:
Western 100%
Eastern 90%
Muslim 80%
Indian 50%
Chinese 40%
SubSaharan 20%
New World 10%

I propose to assume everyone in the CK2 area has at least Indian level learning in 1300. I think that's fairer to Mali and Ethiopia than lumping them in with the Congo basin in SubSaharan. So we're dividing up the remaining 50% according to CK2 learning score. So realms with 80% or better of historical 1300 max score become Western, 60-80% Eastern, and the bottom 60% become Muslim. 80% of 1300 score by 1453 should be a fairly low hurdle & most realms should thus become western, as they should.
It's ignoring culture altogether, because I don't want to punish realms that do much better than historical just because of what their culture historically achieved. I'd rather give lots of realms western tech and up the challenge level than handicap realms that did match their historical achievements just because someone else did better
 

magritte2

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This is the method I'm trying to test out with unplayed 1300 and 1337 savesIt's ignoring culture altogether, because I don't want to punish realms that do much better than historical just because of what their culture historically achieved. I'd rather give lots of realms western tech and up the challenge level than handicap realms that did match their historical achievements just because someone else did better

I guess it's a matter of personal preference. But in essence, this uses tech level as of 1399 to predict future development. By that criterion, wouldn't China also be western tech? The tech groups in EU3 are designed to reflect how Europe sped ahead of the world during that time frame (I think it overdoes it, but that's a separate argument), not the tech levels at the beginning of the game.
 

Pode

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Sorry, I'm not being clear and that's on me. I'm using a parameter created in the converter referred to as learning score, not tech level. It's based on the tech bonuses from buildings for each province. Not the tech level achieved, but the rate of tech progress. Both CK2 and EU3 assume a baseline rate of tech progress (it appears in game as ahead/behind bonuses). EU3 says if you are western, you tech up at 100% of that baseline rate, level 0 in 1300 and level 1 in 1360. I want to see how an unplayed CK2 game from 1300 scores as far as learning rate, set thresholds for the techgroups based on % of that best 1300 rate, do the same for 1337, average the two sets of thresholds, and test how well those thresholds create reasonable 1399 tech groupings. Starting tech levels /investments within the groups Idrendhur already has handled.
 

legionario1986

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I guess it's a matter of personal preference. But in essence, this uses tech level as of 1399 to predict future development. By that criterion, wouldn't China also be western tech? The tech groups in EU3 are designed to reflect how Europe sped ahead of the world during that time frame (I think it overdoes it, but that's a separate argument), not the tech levels at the beginning of the game.

That's the problem. In CK2 we're plaing in Europe-Middle East, so what about ROW (China, India...)? Have we to recalculate every techgroup? It didn't depends on the starting tech level. So cultural conversion is the best option I think, don't you?
 

Pode

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Again, we're NOT using tech level, we're using tech RATE.

Whatever altered history we create in ck2 doesn't alter the history of row, so row gets its historical start as modeled in EU3.

I categorically reject use of culture and only culture to determine tech group. EU3 does so based on cultural attitudes towards learning and technology that developed over real history, and gives the player options to change those attitudes over time. With Old Gods, ck2 gives the player 600 years to change those attitudes and the events that shaped them. Claiming that certain cultures would have ended up retarded in technology growth regardless of what happened to them for 6 centuries is a mighty bold claim of essentially racist nature, and you're going to have to show me MUCH more and more persuasive evidence.
 
Last edited:

legionario1986

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Again, we're NOT using tech level, we're using tech RATE.

Whatever altered history we create in ck2 doesn't alter the history of row, so row gets its historical start as modeled in EU3.

I categorically reject use of culture and only culture to determine tech group. EU3 does so based on cultural attitudes towards learning and technology that developed over real history, and gives the player options to change those attitudes over time. With Old Gods, ck2 gives the player 600 years to change those attitudes and the events that shaped them. Claiming that certain cultures would have ended up retarded in technology growth regardless of what happened to them for 6 centuries is a mighty bold claim of essentially racist nature, and you're going to have to show me MUCH more and more persuasive evidence.

Ok, the problem is that, could you explain me what I've to do to become western? I saw many converted games and there weren't western countries (or only a few of them). Maybe the problem is that this tech rate is wrong made, so it must be rebuild. My question is: what I have to do to become western tech group?
 

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Culture is a big factor IMO. However there really isn't a good way to track how 600 years change things.

How would you model "attitudes" of a country? I think the answer to this question would help us out. By "us" I mean "not me" because I'm can't code for crap.

In this timeframe we saw the christians flourishing and the muslims going to crap. Yet somehow I don't think religion is the problem. I do believe there were some basic cultural difference between the Christians and the Muslims, but I don't believe that believing in 1 more or less prophets is the deciding factor in technological advancement. Surely things would be different if they played out another way. Notice I said cultural.

Another thing is the existence of ERE. If it didn't fall and the Jews and educated Greeks never fled to the west would the Renaissance have happened?

Under what conditions, however unlikely, would you consider Mali (Hordes, Ethiopian, Norse Pagan, etc.) to be Western tech? Let's just assume that however outrageous and unlikely some player will try to accomplish westernization of the most backasswards country possibly.
 

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Arabian Literature was a more important factor to Renaissance than the Greeks and the Jews that travelled West.But what will happen with the converter if the mongols don't sack baghad and Islam doesn't cease so easily to have a Golden Age?
 

magritte2

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Ok, the problem is that, could you explain me what I've to do to become western? I saw many converted games and there weren't western countries (or only a few of them). Maybe the problem is that this tech rate is wrong made, so it must be rebuild. My question is: what I have to do to become western tech group?

Tech rate in CK2 is controlled by the presence of schools, universities, etc...whose distribution in non-player realms is going to be income dependent. So what I expect will happen is that the middle east will almost invariably be western tech and Scandinavia, Scotland and Ireland will almost never be western tech. But go ahead and test your late start games so you see for yourself.
 

XRW

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Arabian Literature was a more important factor to Renaissance than the Greeks and the Jews that travelled West.But what will happen with the converter if the mongols don't sack baghad and Islam doesn't cease so easily to have a Golden Age?

That's interesting. Wouldn't the same effect be accomplished if the Christians sack Bagdad or the Crusades were unusually successful?
 

Pode

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Maybe the problem is that this tech rate is wrong made, so it must be rebuild.
Yes, exactly. The existing system is just wrong, period. We're working on a better one, one that actually works. I have an idea for it that folks seem interested in testing, but I get crashes on unplayed saves and can't test it yet :(
 

Pode

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Tech rate in CK2 is controlled by the presence of schools, universities, etc...whose distribution in non-player realms is going to be income dependent. So what I expect will happen is that the middle east will almost invariably be western tech and Scandinavia, Scotland and Ireland will almost never be western tech. But go ahead and test your late start games so you see for yourself.
Ac tually, what you'll see right now is almost the entire world becoming muslim, with a very few western and a few more eastern realms if they had extremely well developed building tech bonuses. Existing system grades on deviation from the mean, regardless of the mean, so it's only small rich realms that can get western. Which is why no one is happy with the existing system.
 

Pode

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That's interesting. Wouldn't the same effect be accomplished if the Christians sack Bagdad or the Crusades were unusually successful?
Unfortunately CK2's sacking mechanisms are somewhat lacking (hopefully Old Gods will fix this, as well as the promised tech overhaul). As of 1.09, there's not a way to destroy a school once it's built, so tech rates / learning scores will be ahistorically high since being sacked by the Mongols/Crusaders/Pagans/Aztecs/whoever will only delay further increase, not cause actual setbacks as in history. I want to handle this by setting the thresholds for tech groups at actual historical levels, so that these more developed realms coming out of CK2 get western tech group in EU3 instead of getting penalized as backward due to destruction that didn't happen.
 

Idhrendur

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Sorry I haven't been able to keep up with things here (including looking into some of those crashes). Life has been busy.

One thing I'll point out for the sake of the discussion is that the ROTW gets set however they would be in a new EU3 starting at that date. We read in the history files to make it so, and I even reverse-engineered the way tech levels are calculated to get that just right. So it's only Europe that needs figuring out.