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Pode

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We've been discussing exactly how to address it quite a bit the last few pages (we being the team and I, not promoting myself to team member). I think I'm happy with my plan, but I think everyone else is waiting to see results before they comment. Looks like I'll get a snow day tomorrow, if so I'll DL the new 0.6C and see if there's method to my madness.
 

Grifen88

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We've been discussing exactly how to address it quite a bit the last few pages (we being the team and I, not promoting myself to team member). I think I'm happy with my plan, but I think everyone else is waiting to see results before they comment. Looks like I'll get a snow day tomorrow, if so I'll DL the new 0.6C and see if there's method to my madness.

Would it help if I post my converter logs for those interested?

Anyway, there's another quirk I like to report.

In my CK2 save, I vassalised the Pope after pushing my own anti-Pope to Rome. After conversion however, EU3 regards Rome as part of the UK and the Papal States now starts as a kingdom in the HRE (which I presume is a placeholder for another nation.) The Curia itself became non-functional, with no cardinals present and a rebel flag as the Papal Controller.
 

dtremenak

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Would it help if I post my converter logs for those interested?

Yes, the logs from 0.6C output a batch of data that might help the analysts among us.

In my CK2 save, I vassalised the Pope after pushing my own anti-Pope to Rome. After conversion however, EU3 regards Rome as part of the UK and the Papal States now starts as a kingdom in the HRE (which I presume is a placeholder for another nation.) The Curia itself became non-functional, with no cardinals present and a rebel flag as the Papal Controller.

The Curia starting empty and with no controller is a known issue, that EU3 should correct within the first few months.

The Papal States being created, but not as a theocracy, is a real problem (which might inhibit the above mechanism). Thanks for reporting that.
 

legionario1986

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Changing techgroups conversion

Hi human people,

Last day I saw the questions that Grifen88 make about techgroups and I have to say that I was thinking on techgroups for a while. I think we're not making these properly. First of all we must ask to ourselves is why appeared those techgroups? On that times kings, dukes... They haven't all the power, there was another powerfull thing: the religion. It was the religion which prime the society with different ideas or attitudes. As I told some members of the devTeam the true difference in those times betwen west europe, east and muslims wasn't which level they start with but what religion they had.

In europe, monasteries kept the knowledge inside them, but by the time in the west, monks start releasing that knowledge and that never hapend in the east, why? Because in west europe we where Catholic and in east europe where Othodox. Yes, that means that Catholics were more openminded than Orthodox. An example is the Austria-Hungary Empire (I know, is in another part of the history. It's only an example). There were two different zones in the Empire, Austria and Hungary? No, Catholic and Orthodox governors was the true difference. Western tech was the tech develop in the new Kingdoms appeared with the fall of the Western Roman Empire, all of them influenced by the Catholic Church. On the other side we have the rise of the Eastern Roman Empire Byzantine Empire, Orthodox. Both zones were influenced by their religion even more than by their kings and emperors.

With muslims the problem was different, they were open minded at the begining of the Medieval period, thats why they had a powerfull thech. But by the time they became close minded and... you can see how they are today.

So different techgroups appeared because of religions and, of course, culture (very influenced by religion). I think that this background is important to be implemented. Religion was another way to govern people in those times, and you could try many things to transform your nation into a culture focus, but if church says no, it was no. There are many Kings executed because of their eretic ideas, the Inquisition... An example could be Spain (or Castile and Aragon). There were three cultures in the Kingdom, our technology was incredible but the pope says we must to expel (at the begining) and kill (at the end, remember Torquemada) all infidels... As a result we are western tech group in EU3.

I think things must be simplified, so this is my proposal:

If EU3 religion = catholic --> techgroup = western (non catholic must to westernize)
If EU3 religion = orthodox --> techgroup = eastern
If EU3 religion = sunni { #Two options
if high tech level --> techgroup = ottoman #things like to be empire or big country could be considered
else --> techgroup = muslim
}​
If EU3 religion = shiite --> techgroup = muslim #could be considered ottoman group but with higher requirements than sunni (sunni are more openminded than shiite)
If EU3 religion =shamanism--> techgroup = nomads

Despite of the religion some kind of government mus become nomads. Note that I said "kind of government", if someone civiliced the Golden Orde they wouldn't be nomads.

Other countries that not appear in CK2 will be keep with the tech group they had in EU3 (chinese, indian, sub-saharan, nomads and new world techgroups). In case of the aztec show up I think they couldn't be considered new world, they must be western or eastern (I don't know very well wich decide).

What is your opinion humans?
 

magritte2

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Hungary is certainly predominantly catholic now and AFAIK was for most of its history, as is Poland, yet both are "eastern" tech in EU3. I would be inclined to use culture rather than religion because I feel that if you feed a "historical" CK2 game into EU3, it should end up looking like a normal EU3 start.
 

XRW

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Here's a couple log files. 1. Is from that Gotland>HRE game, the other is from my Roman game way back when before they nerfed it. I could post logs for a couple hands off games if you need.

Most western countries seem to be assigned this. I assume it's an error since they maybe don't exist after conversion.
13-03-05 15:57:21: ,FOI,-1.#IND00,western
13-03-05 15:57:21: ,FRI,-1.#IND00,western
13-03-05 15:57:21: ,FRN,-1.#IND00,western
13-03-05 15:57:21: ,GAL,-1.#IND00,western
13-03-05 15:57:21: ,GBR,-1.#IND00,western
13-03-05 15:57:21: ,GEL,-1.#IND00,western
13-03-05 15:57:21: ,GEN,-1.#IND00,western
13-03-05 15:57:21: ,GEO,-1.#IND00,western
13-03-05 15:57:21: ,GOT,-1.#IND00,western
13-03-05 15:57:21: ,GRA,-1.#IND00,western
13-03-05 15:57:21: ,GRE,-1.#IND00,western
13-03-05 15:57:21: ,GUY,-1.#IND00,western

View attachment logROME.txt
View attachment logGOTLAND.txt
 

johnjohansson

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@Gimenez: Given that the EU3 tech groups are named such as they are, I guess one could argue that Paradox agree with you. To some extent, it makes sense that the different mindsets inherent in and encouraged by the different religions would be a major driving force behind technological development, but - while my knowledge of the specifics of medieval religious practices is limited - I think that would be a very simplified picture.

I rather agree with magritte2 that culture would probably have a bigger impact, but I must say that both approaches seem too deterministic for me. I would prefer an approach based more on mechanics (where religions are more or less "equally good"), much in line with what we have in place. I guess basing tech groups solely on religion could be an "easy way out", and possibly included as an option. I'm no coder, but I figure the code for that would be relatively easy to put in.

---

@XRW: It is my understanding that the tech score -1.#IND00 is the result of controlling no provinces in EU3 (e.g. the affected tags are converted as releaseable vassals/potential revolters). Since the tech score includes a division by number of provinces, the formula doesn't work (resulting in -1.#IND00 rather than an actual number) for these tags, and they are assigned western tech as a fallback.

I for one would very much appreciate more logs. Hands off games especially would be a good alternative to unplayed late starts that we discussed a few pages ago (that I've had trouble converting) for analysing how the current implementation of tech groups vibes with a "natural" CK2 situation.

At what years did you convert those to games for which you posted the logs? Could be good to know if/when we (EDIT: read Pode :p) try to extrapolate the development of tech scores over time.
 

Grifen88

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Here you go. This game was played to the end, ie 1.1.1453. It was a mostly hands-off game for regions other than the British Isles, Iberian Peninsular and Algeria.

View attachment Britannialog.txt
2013-03-05_00002.jpg
 

XRW

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Gotland (HRE)was is April 21, 1400.
Rome was in August 29, 1445.

Would it be helpful to have the same campaign converted at multiple points near the end?
 

johnjohansson

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Would it be helpful to have the same campaign converted at multiple points near the end?

Well, it wouldn't hurt, but I'd rather have logs from different converted campaigns. So far I'm simply trying to get an overview of how well the current implementation works (as well as gathering data on which other methods can be tested later), and for that purpose I think a breadth of saves is preferable to fewer but more closely scrutinized.
 

meseejos

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not sure if its been mentioned or if its new with the current update, just about every nation started with (no_government) and with 0 tech no one can change. (estimated time for first tech increase 12610) A few of nations where able to fix their no_government (they all have a basic 3 tech). Its been awhile since I have tried to convert so i do have a couple questions.

Has the starting with no available troops been looked into?
Has the lack of any natives in colonization areas been looked into?
Has tech of any kind been looked into, or at least leaving the basic tech from a standard EU3 game
Does the converter mod work with the converter now?
 

Panxagamba

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Why byzantine empire has muslim technology group? :S
It should has easter tech. group... i think.
 

Pode

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Armies and such are for version 0.7, we're working on tech groups with version 0.6. Or I would be if I weren't crashing every time at relating vassals and lieges :/ Attached log and slightly more informative screenshot of converter messages.View attachment 75518screen log.JPG

Edit: Never mind, a patched up version of DW would probably help
Edit again: Never mind the never mind, patching DW didn't help, still crashing.
 

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Last edited:

dtremenak

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Or I would be if I weren't crashing every time at relating vassals and lieges :/

What's the start date on the game? I could hypothesize that any 1.09 game with a start date after the mid-1100s will probably crash, based on the problem I saw with johnjohansson's save. I'd kind of expect CK2 to fix that problem after a month of in-game time though.
 

Pode

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Working on tech conversions, so unplayed 1/1/1300 and 1/1/1337 games. Tried backing up a day and giving the game a day to sort out relationships. Will go try giving them a month in observe mode, but it hurts the repeatability / unplayed aspect a little. Prolly not enough to matter, I'm just an anal engineer and like all my variables controlled.

Edit: backing up to 1 Dec and letting it run untouched for a month didn't resolve the crash. I did get a little validation for my worry about what important can happen in a month, as in both cases the Pope declared a crusade.
 
Last edited:

johnjohansson

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I could hypothesize that any 1.09 game with a start date after the mid-1100s will probably crash, based on the problem I saw with johnjohansson's save.

You put something in to prevent the crashing though, so it'll work for the next release, or did I misunderstand your earlier post? For our purposes, we don't need a playable eu3 save, just a reasonably complete log of the conversion process (more specifically the tech score stuff that was added to the log in 0.6B).

It's a very small problem in the grand scheme of things and understandably very far down in the list of priorities, so if it doesn't work we'll just have to find another way.
 

legionario1986

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Techgroups conversion

Hungary is certainly predominantly catholic now and AFAIK was for most of its history, as is Poland, yet both are "eastern" tech in EU3. I would be inclined to use culture rather than religion because I feel that if you feed a "historical" CK2 game into EU3, it should end up looking like a normal EU3 start.

@Gimenez: Given that the EU3 tech groups are named such as they are, I guess one could argue that Paradox agree with you. To some extent, it makes sense that the different mindsets inherent in and encouraged by the different religions would be a major driving force behind technological development, but - while my knowledge of the specifics of medieval religious practices is limited - I think that would be a very simplified picture.

I rather agree with magritte2 that culture would probably have a bigger impact, but I must say that both approaches seem too deterministic for me. I would prefer an approach based more on mechanics (where religions are more or less "equally good"), much in line with what we have in place. I guess basing tech groups solely on religion could be an "easy way out", and possibly included as an option. I'm no coder, but I figure the code for that would be relatively easy to put in.


Ok, I'm with you. Maybe my first analysis wasn't accurate enought but what I can't accept is that Great Britain, Castile, France or anyone become muslim techgroup because of the conquest of any province in the north of africa or asia... we can make that conversion considering culture and religion, or only culture, and let people choose betwen that new way of conversion (more historical) or the way is being converted at these moment in configuration.txt
 

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Ok, I'm with you. Maybe my first analysis wasn't accurate enought but what I can't accept is that Great Britain, Castile, France or anyone become muslim techgroup because of the conquest of any province in the north of africa or asia... we can make that conversion considering culture and religion, or only culture, and let people choose betwen that new way of conversion (more historical) or the way is being converted at these moment in configuration.txt

"More historical" doesn't really agree with times before the divide even simply came into existence, let alone be visible. I would concur for a save started in 1337, but in 1066 (or, even more, in 867)? That doesn't really work, and come The Old Gods I would be quite irked in seeing my (let's say) Merchant Republic of Pagan Prussia being slammed down to Nomadic just because it is Pagan. And in 1337 as well you would slam Lithuania into said Nomad techgroup - which is quite inaccurate as well.
 

Pode

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What currently happens is that a learning score is computed based on how many schools and universities are in the CK2 provinces that get merged into an EU3 province. I'm not sure exactly how that score is processed into tech groups right now, but I do know that no one, including the mod leader who coded it, likes it and we all want it changed. I'd proposed an alternate method that everyone seemed interested in seeing the results of, but I need converter logs for unplayed games starting on Jan 1 1300, Jan 1 1337, and ideally a bunch of observe games dating to Jan 1 1399 or later. Since I can't get 0.6C to convert a game for me, I can't get those logs, and I can't test my method against them to see if it works any better or is just a different flavor of wrong. If you guys can convert unplayed games from those dates, please post your converter log files and I'll crunch them.
 

XRW

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Historical as a concept goes right out the window as soon as Mongols invade Sweden.

Edit. I'm working on observer games. Will convert and post logs as soon as I can get 2 or 3.