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Idhrendur

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Oh, also DtRemenak, as best as possible, please put updates that aren't army or navy related in the 'minor' branch. That way we can do release of your updated titles and the fixed tech stuff without having to wait until we get army and navy stuff to a releasable state.
 

Idhrendur

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Since we've got discussions happening again, let's discuss army conversion.

This is the only discussion on the mechanics of doing so, and it predates retinues:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...er-Project&p=14008298&viewfull=1#post14008298

Now, I think retinues should be easy to convert. Every 1000 footmen become an infantry unit, every 1000 horsemen become a cavalry unit, and when vassals are absorbed their lieges get the converted armies.

But we need to also consider raised levies and potentially raised levies, and it's be just plain nice to have a method that handles both pre-retinue saves and modern saves without lots of configuration and version checking. Proposals?

Also, navies. What will we do about them? There's been nothing suggested so far.
 

Pode

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CK2 baronies, yes, but the converter is pretty smart at handling buildings. It actually loads all the CK2 building data, so it can look up just how much any given building adjusts the tech growth rate. So the bonus from each building in the entire nation is summed, then that sum is divided by the number of baronies in the nation.

Later, every nation's sum is divided by the highest sum in the CK2 area, normalizing the world to some extent.
Sorry if this gets annoying, but I'm again going to try to rephrase this to make sure I'm understanding properly.
-Nation learning score = sum(CK2 learning bonuses from buildings in nation) / sum(CK2 holdings in nation)
-Relative learning score = learning score / highest learning score
-tech group is assigned based on relative learning and thresholds above

I think we should work towards:
-CK2 province learning score = product of building learning bonuses in province
-nation learning = sum(province learning score * holdings in province) / (holdings in nation)
-tech group assigned based on nation learning and hardcoded thresholds from converting / comparing overlapping unplayed games as discussed above.

Pretty sure the CK2 bonuses stack, so 20% from a church and 30% from a uni make a 56% bonus vs 50%. Will give a slightly wider range and more gradation to the scores. Not sure how much that matters, but if it's easy to do, why not?

One concern with all this is that buildings aren't the sole determinant of tech growth. A realm with low cultural and religious flexibility techs might have a lot of schools but a bad case of not invented here syndrome. Do we want to roll a multiplier of (1 +techlevel/10) for those two techs into the province learning score to reflect this?

Another is that tech group isn't just about learning. As the group names indicate, there are cultural effects on unit types available as well, and that could get strange quickly. Things like Baghdadi Gallowglasses and Icelandic Mamelukes. I got zero suggestions for this one other than to embrace the madness.

I can look tonight for overlappping start dates between CK2 and EU3 HttT and send unplayed saves, or wait until Sunday for those 5 lines of code :) and work on IDing the highest and lowest learning score nations of each tech group for threshold setting.
 

Pode

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Re: Army conversion.
Only amendment I'd suggest to that otherwise excellent method is using skirmish attack * skirmish defense + melee attack * melee defense as the troop value weighting, to get results close to coanda's CK2 analysis with less computation. No way 400 light infantry is a match for 300 pike or 400 archers.

I don't see a compelling reason to handle retinues differently from raised levies. If an army is on the map, it gets diced into equivalent infantry and cavalry components per the weighting method. Unraised levies get translated and then added to manpower pool. Unused retinue cap points go directly into manpower. That last point is the only one that would potentially have to version check, and you could set it to zero by default unless an actual value is found in the savegame.

Navies: Since they can instantly be summoned in CK2, I think we have to model them as being built and existing in EU3 whether they're raised or not in CK2. It's been so long since I played EU3, but doesn't it take 1 ship to transport 1 unit of 1000 men? So take the total CK2 ships available in a province, divide by 10, and put that number of ships on the EU3 map. If the CK2 navy is raised, put them where they are, otherwise put them in their home port. Since CK2 ignores naval combat, make all these ships transport ships for EU3.
 
Last edited:

dtremenak

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Might option 3 be to assume that all family palace holdings are in the capital of the republic?

Yes, we could do that. But it would weight certain provinces very heavily for tech conversion, ownership determination, culture determination, etc, since we use "number of holdings in the affected provinces" for each of those algorithms, so I'd prefer to avoid that solution.

I'll have to double-check the code, but I'm pretty sure most of those assumptions are from me trying to get something to work quickly, rather than correctly (see also how I far too frequently don't check pointer validity at all). They're probably worth fixing in any case. I think I like the first possibility better though.

And if my brain isn't just being too tired, either choice should produce an identical result, right? Either way they don't really affect anything we care about, we're just avoiding data states we implicitly assumed would never arise.

Yeah, I don't think we have immediate plans for any of the family palace data. Not sure about long-term, but the first option does preserve our ability to use the data a little better.

Oh, also DtRemenak, as best as possible, please put updates that aren't army or navy related in the 'minor' branch. That way we can do release of your updated titles and the fixed tech stuff without having to wait until we get army and navy stuff to a releasable state.

I considered that, but the tanistry and ultimogeniture conversion code is only in main, and I thought it'd be best to keep all the 1.09 stuff together.
 

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Now, I think retinues should be easy to convert. Every 1000 footmen become an infantry unit, every 1000 horsemen become a cavalry unit, and when vassals are absorbed their lieges get the converted armies.

That's a good start for retinues.

But we need to also consider raised levies and potentially raised levies, and it's be just plain nice to have a method that handles both pre-retinue saves and modern saves without lots of configuration and version checking. Proposals?

Levy potential is more similar to manpower. The only odd thing there is the mechanical difference between instant, free armies and armies that take time and money to form.

Also, navies. What will we do about them? There's been nothing suggested so far.

If you have retinues (or converted levies) on boats, you absolutely must create a navy for them :) Other than that, I think they should follow similar rules as levies (as all transports).

Only amendment I'd suggest to that otherwise excellent method is using skirmish attack * skirmish defense + melee attack * melee defense as the troop value weighting, to get results close to coanda's CK2 analysis with less computation. No way 400 light infantry is a match for 300 pike or 400 archers.

This is true, but remember that EU3 also has multiple unit types of different strength, and each EU3 nation will have different types available due to different tech progression and tech group. If you get away from "man-to-man" conversion, you will need to use "strength-to-strength" conversion like we do for EU3toVic2, which is considerably more complicated.

I don't see a compelling reason to handle retinues differently from raised levies. If an army is on the map, it gets diced into equivalent infantry and cavalry components per the weighting method. Unraised levies get translated and then added to manpower pool. Unused retinue cap points go directly into manpower. That last point is the only one that would potentially have to version check, and you could set it to zero by default unless an actual value is found in the savegame.

The nations with the biggest armies in the EU3 start are less than 20K. A single COUNTY in engame CK2 can have more levies than that. One-for-one conversion of levies would lead to a grossly imbalanced and completely unaffordable (over force limit) start.

Navies: Since they can instantly be summoned in CK2, I think we have to model them as being built and existing in EU3 whether they're raised or not in CK2. It's been so long since I played EU3, but doesn't it take 1 ship to transport 1 unit of 1000 men? So take the total CK2 ships available in a province, divide by 10, and put that number of ships on the EU3 map. If the CK2 navy is raised, put them where they are, otherwise put them in their home port. Since CK2 ignores naval combat, make all these ships transport ships for EU3.

Again, the numbers are totally wrong, because the mechanics are different. If my game's Scotland converted with all her navies raised, she'd be losing thousands of ducats per month in naval maintenance because of the over-forcelimit multipliers.
 

Pode

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This is true, but remember that EU3 also has multiple unit types of different strength, and each EU3 nation will have different types available due to different tech progression and tech group. If you get away from "man-to-man" conversion, you will need to use "strength-to-strength" conversion like we do for EU3toVic2, which is considerably more complicated.
Good point, though ignoring strength will make the Ethiopians and their light infantry cultural retinue the world's dominant military culture, which may not be the desired effect :p I was thinking use the CK2 strength to chop the numbers down to a "professional soldier equivalent" number (pikemen count as 1, HI a little less, LI as much less than 1), and then assign whatever EU3 unit is available for every 1000 PSE, rounding down. Agree that there's no value in sweating converting archers to longbowmen and so on.
The nations with the biggest armies in the EU3 start are less than 20K. A single COUNTY in engame CK2 can have more levies than that. One-for-one conversion of levies would lead to a grossly imbalanced and completely unaffordable (over force limit) start.
True, but mobilizing all the levies of the realm without making the vassals pay for it would represent a crippling financial burden for the liege until the economy developed to the point of supporting mass conscription. Isn't the basic idea of a CK2 levy scraping together every adultish male who's ever held a pointy stick before? Don't those big EU3 powers have manpower more on the order of 200K vs their 20K actual armies? I'm not sure there's that big a problem if you can't afford to mobilize all your manpower, that sounds in line with my EU3 memories.
Again, the numbers are totally wrong, because the mechanics are different. If my game's Scotland converted with all her navies raised, she'd be losing thousands of ducats per month in naval maintenance because of the over-forcelimit multipliers.
Even with the factor of 10 reduction? Or was I wrong about that and it takes 10 ships to move 1000 men in EU3 just like in CK2?

Sorry if I'm being an argumentative prick. You guys are doing awesome work and I just want to contribute and see this project become something I enjoy and use as much as I would enjoy and use the version of it that exists in my head.
 

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Good point, though ignoring strength will make the Ethiopians and their light infantry cultural retinue the world's dominant military culture, which may not be the desired effect :p I was thinking use the CK2 strength to chop the numbers down to a "professional soldier equivalent" number (pikemen count as 1, HI a little less, LI as much less than 1), and then assign whatever EU3 unit is available for every 1000 PSE, rounding down. Agree that there's no value in sweating converting archers to longbowmen and so on.

You'll get no argument from me if you want to advocate a "strength-to-strength" conversion, especially if you can articulate a good algorithm for doing so, ideally with examples. I implemented the method used by EU3ToVic2, so I'm clearly not against the concept :) And, uh, the Ethiopians can use all the help they can get, after being shafted so badly in CK2 ;)

True, but mobilizing all the levies of the realm without making the vassals pay for it would represent a crippling financial burden for the liege until the economy developed to the point of supporting mass conscription. Isn't the basic idea of a CK2 levy scraping together every adultish male who's ever held a pointy stick before? Don't those big EU3 powers have manpower more on the order of 200K vs their 20K actual armies? I'm not sure there's that big a problem if you can't afford to mobilize all your manpower, that sounds in line with my EU3 memories.

Yes, exactly. I don't think we should start every nation in EU3 in an untenable position (raising all the levies with no support) but in a conservative one (potential levies converted to manpower - and maybe scaled down a bit at that - and few or no levies converted into actual armies).

Even with the factor of 10 reduction? Or was I wrong about that and it takes 10 ships to move 1000 men in EU3 just like in CK2?

Yes, even with the reduction. If I remember my example game correctly, I could raise over 2500 ships just from the British Isles. 250 EU3 transports with a start-of-game economy and no tech bonuses for the forcelimits would be crippling (I think...have to admit I haven't actually done the math on the maintenance :) ).

Sorry if I'm being an argumentative prick. You guys are doing awesome work and I just want to contribute and see this project become something I enjoy and use as much as I would enjoy and use the version of it that exists in my head.

You're being helpful, not prickish. These discussions are critical for getting all the ideas out into the open and critiqued thoroughly. Pretty sure we're shooting for something pretty close to the version in your head, because we're all seeking the same goal - a very playable and reasonably accurate transition from CK2 to EU3.
 

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I'm loving the discussions, but don't have a ton of time to chat.

DTRemenak - I had assumed you had missed the branches entirely. I've merged code from main to both minor and bugfixes, including your country mapping updates.

Everyone else - I've uploaded a version that gives some data on what's going on internally with tech group conversion. The log will now contain a section like so
Code:
13-02-22 18:46:18: Converting tech.
13-02-22 18:46:18: Highest tech score is 0.300000
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BYZ,0.201036,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,GOL,0.082258,nomad_group
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,TIM,0.164493,nomad_group
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,JAI,0.239344,nomad_group
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ENG,0.174046,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,PAP,0.206818,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SWE,0.070769,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,FRA,0.202571,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MAM,0.176744,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SCO,0.205405,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,IRE,0.224490,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,NOR,0.136000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,LOR,0.194444,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BOH,0.193182,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,CRO,0.181186,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SIC,0.193056,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,GEO,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MOR,0.200000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,TUN,0.232609,ottoman
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ETH,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,HOL,0.161905,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,GEL,0.125000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BRB,0.176923,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,FLA,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,LUX,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ALS,0.200000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MKL,0.160000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,POM,0.266667,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BRA,0.237500,ottoman
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MEI,0.166667,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BAV,0.184000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,HAB,0.192000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,TIR,0.176190,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BRU,0.167308,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,KOL,0.212000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,NAX,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ATH,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,CRT,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,CYP,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SHL,0.193333,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,PRU,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,KUR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,NOV,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,TVE,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,YAR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MOS,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,RYA,0.126087,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,CRI,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MLO,0.160870,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,GEN,0.270588,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,FER,0.214286,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,TUS,0.160000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,PIS,0.294118,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,URB,0.175000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SAR,0.125000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,CHP,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,GUY,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,TOU,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,AUV,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BRI,0.253333,eastern
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,PRO,0.195652,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BUR,0.224000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,NAV,0.170588,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,GAL,0.137500,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,GRA,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SYR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,TEU,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,FRI,0.166667,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,KLE,0.218182,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,WBG,0.200000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,HAM,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BRE,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,NZH,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,FEZ,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,RIG,0.190909,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,AAC,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ACH,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ADE,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,AKK,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ALB,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ALE,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ALG,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ALH,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,AMG,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ANH,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ANS,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,AQU,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ARA,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ARM,0.200000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,AST,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,AUG,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,AVI,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,AYD,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BAD,0.000000,sub_saharan
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BAR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BER,0.148649,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BOS,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BOU,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,BUL,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,CAS,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,CAT,0.190000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,CEP,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,CND,0.125000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,CNN,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,COR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,CRN,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,DAN,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,DAU,0.146154,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,DNZ,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,DUL,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,EPI,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ETR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,FIN,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,FOI,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,FRN,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,GBR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,GOT,0.266667,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,GRE,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,HAI,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,HAN,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,HED,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,HES,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,HSA,0.211111,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,HUN,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,IRQ,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,KAR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,KAZ,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,KNI,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,KRA,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,LAN,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,LAU,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,LEI,0.215152,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,LIE,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,LIT,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,LIV,0.164286,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,LUN,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MAG,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MAI,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MAN,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MAZ,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MEN,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MNS,0.180000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MOD,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MOE,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MOL,0.150000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MON,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MUN,0.240741,eastern
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,MUR,0.200000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,NAJ,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,NAP,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,NEV,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,NOG,0.125000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,NOL,0.166667,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,NRM,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,OLD,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,OMA,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ORL,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,PAL,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,PAR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,PLT,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,POL,0.300000,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,POR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,PSK,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,QAS,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,RAG,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,RAM,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SAV,0.159259,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SAX,0.083333,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SER,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SHR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SIE,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SIL,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SLZ,0.123077,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SMO,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SRU,0.174194,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,STY,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,SWI,0.173077,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,THU,0.137500,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,TRA,0.139130,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,TRE,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,TRI,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,TRP,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,TUR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,TYR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,UKR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ULM,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,UTR,0.062500,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,VEN,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,WAL,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,WES,0.190476,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,WLS,0.160000,muslim
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,WUR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,YOR,-1.#IND00,western
13-02-22 18:46:18: 	,ZAZ,0.188350,muslim

If you copy and past this section (less the first two lines) into a text file, then rename that file to be a csv file, you can open it in Excel to analyse it. I've including a comma at the beginning of each line so you can throw away the timestamp.
 

Orctavius

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How viable is the converter if you're playing CKII with mods? CK2+ in my case. I'm guessing the answer is not very, but its worth asking.
 
Last edited:

Idhrendur

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How viable is the converter if you're playing CKII with mods? CK2+ in my case. I'm guessing the answer is not very, but its worth asking.

You would be correct. For awhile, we had some CK2+ mods to the converter that worked, but they seem broken for now. Stay tuned, they may well end up better again.
 

Arcvalons

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I have a game as Hispania that I want to convert. Just a question. Will it fragment upon conversion like the HRE? And if so, how to prevent it?

Also are the Aztecs from Sunset Invasion converted? If so, does that mean that the Aztecs get Western European Technology group in EU3, if they own France and England for example?
 

Idhrendur

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I have a game as Hispania that I want to convert. Just a question. Will it fragment upon conversion like the HRE? And if so, how to prevent it?

Also are the Aztecs from Sunset Invasion converted? If so, does that mean that the Aztecs get Western European Technology group in EU3, if they own France and England for example?

Nope, only the HRE gets the HRE mechanics (though you could set any title to convert as the HRE if you wanted).

And we don't do anything special with the Aztecs. The converter mod handles their culture and religion, but that's all. They probably should convert as a horde, though.
 

Pode

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My proposed troop dicing algorithm
-read in stats from defines. For vanilla, forgive the lack of formatting.
Moral lost per kill = 6
Unit Morale Skirmish A Skirmish D Melee A Melee D Pursuit A Pursuit D
LI 3 2 3 3 3 3 3
HI 5 0.5 5 6 4 2 2
Pike 6 0.2 5 5 8 0.2 2
LC 4 2 5 3 3 10 8
HC 10 1 8 10 8 8 5
Arch 1 8 3 1 2 2 3
HA 7 7 4 3 4 7 7

-compute strength of each unit type from (morale+morale lost per kill)/(highest morale +morale lost per kill) * (SA*SD + MA*MD + PA*PD/5)
Unit = Strength
LI (3+6)/(10+6) * (2*3 + 3*3 + 3*3/5) = 9/16 * (16.8) = 9.45
Arch 1 8 3 1 2 2 3 = 11.9
HI 5 0.5 5 6 4 2 2 = 18.8
Pike 6 0.2 5 5 8 0.2 2 = 30.8
LC 4 2 5 3 3 10 8 = 21.9
HC 10 1 8 10 8 8 5 = 96
HA 7 7 4 3 4 7 7 = 40.5

-Compute professional soldier equivalents for each unit type by dividing strength by the relevant reference strength. For infantry, heavy infantry is the standard man at arms professional soldier. For cav, heavy cav.
LI = 0.50
Arch = 0.63
HI = 1
Pike = 1.64
LC = 0.23
HC = 1
HA = 0.42

-Parse every active army on the map (retinues, mercs, and raised levies) into infantry and cavalry PSE's. Multiply the number of each type of unit by that unit's PSE and sum the total seperately for infantry and cav.

-For every 1000 PSEs, spawn an EU3 regiment of the favored unit type of the EU3 nation, whatever that might be depending on tech group and level.

-Leftover PSEs get added to the national manpower pool.

-Unraised levies get parsed into PSE's and added to manpower.

-CK2 ships, both raised and unraised, get totaled for the EU3 province/sea zone, then the square root is taken, truncated, and that number of EU3 transports is created there. Leftovers go into manpower.

So 3 skirmish retinues with 1200 archers and 300 HI get parsed into 761 PSEs for the archers and 300 for the HI, creating a single EU3 infantry regiment and adding 61 men to manpower. 3 Byzantine retinues become 1000 cavalry and 153 manpower. A single ship converts to a single ship, so no active navies get destroyed. A middling naval power with 100 ships gets 10 on conversion and stays a middling naval power. Dtremenak's 2500 ship Royal Navy becomes 50 ships, much more manageable.

I'm not applying the square root to armies because I really believe that if you have large percentages of your realm's levies raised at the end of CK2 you're in kind of an emergency situation and *shouldn't* be on a stable financial footing in EU3 until you disband some of those armies. Ships are a little different.
 

Athalcor

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If I overwrite the CK2 files with the CK2+ ones, will it theoretically work?
 

Pode

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Yes, we could do that (add family palaces to the republic's capital province). But it would weight certain provinces very heavily for tech conversion, ownership determination, culture determination, etc, since we use "number of holdings in the affected provinces" for each of those algorithms, so I'd prefer to avoid that solution.
Assign the palaces to the capital province, but cap the number of holdings per province at 7? So palaces effectively act as improvements to the holdings of the capital but not holdings in their own right?
 

dtremenak

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Assign the palaces to the capital province, but cap the number of holdings per province at 7? So palaces effectively act as improvements to the holdings of the capital but not holdings in their own right?

Then you'd still have the problem of a patrician getting a higher title with no other holding; if the holding had exceeded the cap, it wouldn't be imported, and we'd crash horribly :)

I chose to break the assumption about holdings being in a province, and fixed the problems that caused. This gives us the flexibility to add the holding value (tax/manpower/etc) to a top-level converted title if we choose to do so later.
 

dtremenak

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If I overwrite the CK2 files with the CK2+ ones, will it theoretically work?

You also need the CK2+ mapping files. They're available...somewhere. It may work for you, or it may crash (of course, the same is true of a non-CK2+ game :) )
 

Pode

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Ovince
Then you'd still have the problem of a patrician getting a higher title with no other holding; if the holding had exceeded the cap, it wouldn't be imported, and we'd crash horribly :)

I chose to break the assumption about holdings being in a province, and fixed the problems that caused. This gives us the flexibility to add the holding value (tax/manpower/etc) to a top-level converted title if we choose to do so later.
I'm assuming things about the order of operations & structure of your code, and what all know what happens when one assumes. I figured you import the province data, then process for the things you were worried about breaking above if some provinces had 12 holdings. Nestled between those 2 steps, something like numholdings == min(numholdings,7), overwriting the actual numholdings array but no other province properties....but again, I'm blindly assuming, so ignore me if appropriate.

Looked at start dates & history files just now. Unsurprisingly, the history files stop right at the last vanilla start date of 1.1.1337. Which leaves a 62 year gap before EU3HttT starts. What I / we (readers feel free to make yourselves part of we) can do is pull unplayed saves from a number of CK2 starts, convert them, get the overall tech level, and run a curve fit approximating tech growth over time, then extrapolate that to 1399 & map it to EU3 tech. Not as accurate as overlapping starts, but it shouldn't be too bad. Convert unplayed starts and post the average & sum of all the learning scores for that date. I'll do the spreadsheet curve fitting work. Assuming we're settled on how to calculate a learning score.