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Idhrendur

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Depends. What sort of off stuff?

EDIT: That file upload is still "pending". You might want to try again. :p

The southern edge of the Mamluks and the inner edge of Morocco counting as ROTW provinces. I'm not sure if that's something that will make sense or be absurd, let alone what to do if the latter.

As for the files (the test results from that build are also pending), that seems to be a weird Sourceforge thing. I think all we can do is wait.
 

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The southern edge of the Mamluks and the inner edge of Morocco counting as ROTW provinces.

Oh, I see... We can modify the mappings so that the owner of the coastal provinces will also own those inland ones (or what have you). If you think that's a balance issue (free provinces because of crazy map geography!) then we'll need a solution, like a list of provinces that we specifically exclude from the ROTW rules, or something. It should be a pretty short list, methinks.

There's other wierdness, though, on the eastern border. There's going to be this sharp dividing line between the steppe countries of CK2 and the horde countries of EU3... a bit strange, but something that we have to live with I guess.

EDIT: The mainland provinces seem to be:

336
337
348
1234
 
Last edited:

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There are entries in the solution explorer for CK2World, but no such files exist in the sourceforge code repository.
 

Idhrendur

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There are entries in the solution explorer for CK2World, but no such files exist in the sourceforge code repository.

I hate when I forget to add files to the repository. I'll get those in this evening. Sorry.
 

Idhrendur

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It'll be several days before I get to the point of coding it, but let's discuss details of province ownership conversion.

Assume we've created a tree of titles and their vassal/liege relationships. Also that we've appropriately marked which titles we want to become independent kingdoms and mapped them to EU3 tags (all things I need to do, and the details will likely change down the road).

Then, for each EU3 province:
  1. Get the corresponding CK2 provinces
  2. Generate a list of all baronies in those provinces
  3. For each barony, find the appropriate title
  4. Walk up the liege tree until we reach a title marked to be independent
  5. Store those titles with the EU3 province, along with a count of how many baronies are associated with each topmost title
  6. Every topmost title associated with the EU3 province gets a core
  7. The topmost title with the most baronies owns the province
  8. In case of tie, I'm not sure

Objections? Thoughts? Alternate algorithms?
 

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I like it. Counting baronies is actually pretty clever, because that also implicitly includes some information about the value of the provinces or fiefdoms.

Tiebreakers are hard. I can't think of anything definitive... My first thought is that maybe we could just add up the total values of the baronies (gold spent, with the barony itself costing 700 gold), but if we're going to take that approach, then we might as well use that for step 7...
 

Idhrendur

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the missing files have been added. Also, the changelog for that release:

Code:
Revision	Log Message
---------	----------------
1		Initial commit
2		Initial parser
3		Automated build batch file
4		Copy data files on build
5		Automated Test and Build_and_Test batch files
6		Add initial province mapping with Iceland mapped
7		Output a minimal yet functional EU3 save
8		Add configuration file and relating code
9		ROTW provinces get ownership from EU3 install
10		England Ireland Scotland Wales mapped
11		CK2 cultures mapped, except for german and italian
12		Gunther's province mappings
13		Fix bug uncovered by ROTW mappings
14		Middle East and Persia mapped
15		EU3 starts at the date CK2 ended
16		Merge
17		Start date taken into account for ROTW provinces
 

Idhrendur

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BRAINWAVE. How about we just unmap those north african provinces? Quick fix.

That works only for as long as ownership is the only thing we import from the history files. When we start importing things like base tax or capital name, we'll need them mapped to a CK2 province or explicitly ROTW.

I'm kind of thinking we should just let them stay as they are. If I properly understand the way CK2 titles work, I expect that the bordering nations will be the same nations (so no super-ugly borders), and those provinces aren't powerful enough to terribly disrupt game balance.
 

Idhrendur

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Sorry to do my advertisement, but I made a map which could be useful for an easier mapping.

No need to apologize! We've got a pretty solid tool for mapping things, but if we have to do some debugging of the mappings, your map could make it way easier to find the correct area.
 

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I had an idea, regarding Crown Laws:
Autonomous Vassals = CK2 Vassals are completely independent in EU3.
Low Crown Authority = CK2 Vassals are independent in EU3, but liege has cores on all them.
Medium Crown Authority = CK2 Vassals are vassals in EU3.
High Crown Authority = CK2 Vassals are incorporated into the liege, but they have cores on themselves and have high revoltrisk, etc.
Absolute Crown Authority = CK2 Vassals are incorporated completely into the liege.
 

DasGuntLord01

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I think we should be matching the mechanics a bit better. Absolute Crown Authority in CK2 does not actually equal the king owning and directly controlling the land, as complete incorporation implies. To quote the game directly:

Maximum Crown Authority said:
Effects:
Vassals can no longer declare war on each other.
Vassal titles can no longer pass outside the realm through inheritance.

Modifiers:
Min Levy: +40%
Vassal Opinion: -30

The important thing, therefore, is transfering power from the vassals to the liege, while the vassals themselves remain nominally independent. Inheritance from characters outside the realm, and vassal opinion (relations) will be implicit, and therefore the only thing we need to do is, when converting armies, to move a great deal of the vassals military power to his liege. The effect is a weak vassal and a strong liege, as the CK2 mechanic implies.

With "Autonomous Vassals" such a transfer will not take place. It's tempting to make them independent, because they are "Autonomous", but this ignores the fact that they are also "Vassals". :)

However, there is the problem of "Minimum" and "Low" crown authority vassals being allowed to declare war on each other, which is not the case between EU3 vassals under any circumstances. Perhaps they should be in the lieges "sphere of influence" instead, which implies a much more loose "diplomatic" authority, allows vassals to declare war on each other, but gives the liege casus belli if they do.


So I would propose the following ruleset. The numbers are just taken from CK2 crown authority rules, so we can change them if they are too much or too little. I'm also assuming that we are converting military they way it was done in DV to HTTT, which was converting available levies in some way to their equivalent EU3 regiments.:

Autonomous Vassals: Sphere of Influence only
Low: Sphere of influence, 10% of military strength is transferred from vassal to liege.
Medium: Vassal, 20%
High: Vassal, 30%
Max: Vassal, 40%

Given that inheritance and relations will be implicit in relation and inheritance conversion, the result is:

1) Vassals are permitted to declare war on each other at the appropriate level of crown authority.
2) Ex-realm inheritance is permitted or forbidden at the appropriate level of crown authority.
3) (Relative) Vassal military strength is appropriate for the level of crown authority.
4) Vassal-liege relations are appropriate for the level of crown authority.

thoughts?
 
Last edited:

Idhrendur

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I had an idea, regarding Crown Laws:
Autonomous Vassals = CK2 Vassals are completely independent in EU3.
Low Crown Authority = CK2 Vassals are independent in EU3, but liege has cores on all them.
Medium Crown Authority = CK2 Vassals are vassals in EU3.
High Crown Authority = CK2 Vassals are incorporated into the liege, but they have cores on themselves and have high revoltrisk, etc.
Absolute Crown Authority = CK2 Vassals are incorporated completely into the liege.

I have my own notions about how we might do this, based loosly on the CK1 converter rules but let's make your idea a good competitor for my ideas.

I had been thinking we might give de jure kingdoms all cores on their de jure territories. So the cores idea here wouldn't quite mesh. If instead we put Low Crown Authority vassals into the liege's sphere, that might work better.

And then, hmmm...actually that's the only adjustment I'd make.

I'll note that if a ruler controls multiple kingdoms, each of those kingdoms has its own crown authority. In fact, it looks like internally, each title has it's own crown authority. That could make things interesting.
 

Idhrendur

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I think we should be matching the mechanics a bit better. Absolute Crown Authority in CK2 does not actually equal the king owning and directly controlling the land, as complete incorporation implies. To quote the game directly:



The important thing, therefore, is transfering power from the vassals to the liege, while the vassals themselves remain nominally independent. Inheritance from characters outside the realm, and vassal opinion (relations) will be implicit, and therefore the only thing we need to do is, when converting armies, to move a great deal of the vassals military power to his liege. The effect is a weak vassal and a strong liege, as the CK2 mechanic implies.

With "Autonomous Vassals" such a transfer will not take place. It's tempting to make them independent, because they are "Autonomous", but this ignores the fact that they are also "Vassals". :)

However, there is the problem of "Minimum" and "Low" crown authority vassals being allowed to declare war on each other, which is not the case between EU3 vassals under any circumstances. Perhaps they should be in the lieges "sphere of influence" instead, which implies a much more loose "diplomatic" authority, allows vassals to declare war on each other, but gives the liege casus belli if they do.


So I would propose the following ruleset. The numbers are just taken from CK2 crown authority rules, so we can change them if they are too much or too little. I'm also assuming that we are converting military they way it was done in DV to HTTT, which was converting available levies in some way to their equivalent EU3 regiments.:

Autonomous Vassals: Sphere of Influence only
Low: Sphere of influence, 10% of military strength is transferred from vassal to liege.
Medium: Vassal, 20%
High: Vassal, 30%
Max: Vassal, 40%

Given that inheritance and relations will be implicit in relation and inheritance conversion, the result is:

1) Vassals are permitted to declare war on each other at the appropriate level of crown authority.
2) Ex-realm inheritance is permitted or forbidden at the appropriate level of crown authority.
3) (Relative) Vassal military strength is appropriate for the level of crown authority.
4) Vassal-liege relations are appropriate for the level of crown authority.

thoughts?

We both throught of SOI. That's a good sign. But I've a few questions.

First, do we plan to use this method recursively, or just with the immediate vassals of independent titles? If the former, what does the EU3 engine make of vassals of vassals?

Second, would this method have some kind of backup plan for when we run out of EU3 tags. I don't want to force people to use a mod, and without one, we almost always will run out of tags. Even with one, that's a profound risk. Two test conversions last night showed something like 110-140 independent titles, and the DV->HttT converter assumed 175 or so EU3 tags it could use.
 

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We both throught of SOI. That's a good sign. But I've a few questions.

First, do we plan to use this method recursively, or just with the immediate vassals of independent titles? If the former, what does the EU3 engine make of vassals of vassals?

Second, would this method have some kind of backup plan for when we run out of EU3 tags. I don't want to force people to use a mod, and without one, we almost always will run out of tags. Even with one, that's a profound risk. Two test conversions last night showed something like 110-140 independent titles, and the DV->HttT converter assumed 175 or so EU3 tags it could use.

In a previous post you said that titles will be merged together far in advance of distributing tags. I was working under the assumption that titles were merged together before we applied crown authority rules.

The answer to your first question compliments this: EU3 does not allow to multi-level vassalisations - vassals cannot have vassals as far as I know. This means that, inevitably, the lower level titles must be merged in to the higher level titles (for example, baronies are merged in to counties, which are merged in to duchies, which become vassals of the king). This means that we apply the kings crown authority to his ducal vassals.

This must free some tags. After that, I suspect, we'll have to poach some more rules from DVtoHTTT, because more vassals may need to be merged in to large kingdoms to get the required number of tags.

(I think what I just typed makes sense...)
 

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Well, let me post what I've been thinking with title-merging rules, because that affects this discussion greatly.

First, you generate a score, I'm not sure what to call it. The score would be generated by something like

Code:
score = 
     (vassal opinion of liege) + 
     (liege prestige / vassal prestige) - (vassal presitge / liege prestige) + 
     (piety rules*) + 
     (liege levy size / vassal levy size) - (vassal levy size/ liege levy size) + 
     (liege income / vassal income) - (vassal income / liege income) + 
     (liege highest title strength*) - (vassal total title strength) + (liege number of holdings) + 
     (crown authority)
*Piety:
I can't think of how to put it mathematically right now, but the higher the vassal's piety, the more the liege's superior piety would increase the score, and the more the liege's inferior piety would decrease the score. A low vassal piety would have little effect.

**title strength:
empire = 4
kingdom = 3
duchy = 2
county = 1


Every item would have approptriate factors. Then you take this score to determine the state of the liege, with these effects in order
  1. Completely independent
  2. Sphered by liege
  3. Vassalized by liege
  4. Unified with liege, but with cores
  5. Unified with liege

Edit: You would apply this process recursively. If a vassal become unified to the liege, then its vassals will be transferred to the liege and them considered as such. In cases where we end up with vassals of vassals, we can make manual adjustments.

Remember as well, that EU3's centralization/decentralization slider is supposed to abstract away much of this relationship. So the more vassals unified (and the larger and stronger they were), the lower the liege's centralization.
 
Last edited:

DasGuntLord01

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  1. Completely independent
  2. Sphered by liege
  3. Vassalized by liege
  4. Unified with liege, but with cores
  5. Unified with liege

These rules seem superfluous and/or arbitrary. What are the cutoffs? How do you determine them?

Furthermore, for the purposes of clearing tags, many of these rules are not necessary. Either the country exists, or it does not. The "unified with liege" cutoff is the only one which actually clears a tag.


In a previous post you talked about generating a score that determines vassal "independence", and then walking "up" this list, merging titles with their lieges as you go until all there are enough tags. This seems like the best way to do it, with crown authority alone determining whether a vassal becomes a sphere member or vassal on conversion.
 

unmerged(178779)

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I'll note that if a ruler controls multiple kingdoms, each of those kingdoms has its own crown authority. In fact, it looks like internally, each title has it's own crown authority. That could make things interesting.

An other thing regarding rulers controlling multiple kingdoms, is that the kingdoms may have different inheritance rules, and could therefore be split due to inheritance. So it might be a good idea to have each of the kingdoms transform to its own EU3 kingdom, and then put it in an personal union under the rulers primary kingdom.

Maybe merging kingdoms that could not be split due to having identical inheritance laws, that would always produce the same heir. So if kingdom A is agnatic primogeniture and kindom B is also agnatic primogeniture the they would be merged, but kingdom C under agnatic-cognatic primogeniture would not be merge with kingdom A and B. But if kingdom A and kingdom B are both elective, they would not be merged, since the electors in each kingdom could elect different king.