Idhrendur

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No comment on my post?:huh:

The other one was mostly data, easy to comment on. I was waiting for another analyst type to chime in on the same ideas (which has happened). I'll need to compare both sets of ideas and see what I like or don't like. I'm kinda sleepy right now though, so I might not get to it for awhile.
 

Idhrendur

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Also I am thinking of starting a new game, are there any nations / regions for which you want a save?

I'm going to look over the ideas some time later. As for saves, if there's any way you can cause Zoroastrianism to be preserved, that'd be great. I don't think we have saves where it's still around, so we can't really verify anything in the mod.
 

Mordred Viking

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I'm going to look over the ideas some time later. As for saves, if there's any way you can cause Zoroastrianism to be preserved, that'd be great. I don't think we have saves where it's still around, so we can't really verify anything in the mod.

I'll see what I can do.
 

Mordred Viking

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Thinking about the Zoroastrianism issue, couldn't you convert a new game? In this way all starting aspects will be in the game, and you can test whether they convert properly.
 

Idhrendur

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Thinking about the Zoroastrianism issue, couldn't you convert a new game? In this way all starting aspects will be in the game, and you can test whether they convert properly.

Yes, in fact! It works quite well! And I feel kind of dumb for not having thought of that before…oh well.
 

Idhrendur

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Okay, there have been a bunch of suggestions about the mechanics I asked about (cultural tradition, army tradition, navy tradition, stability, starting money, prestige, infamy, legitimacy). Here are my thoughts on your suggestions. As always, if you think my thoughts are wrong, feel free to continue to discuss (it won't be the first time I've held a losing position and had to be argues out of it over an extended period of time). And even if your ideas all happen to get rejected, please stick around and suggest more, because they're all at least good thoughts.


Cultural Tradition, Army Tradition, Navy Tradition
Two of the three proposals involve the territory controlled by a nation. The other idea suggesting using ruler and advisor stats.
It seems to be that the traditions are more transient values, and using territory as a guide is more long-term in scope, so I'm inclined to go with the latter suggestion.
Does this seem a fair assessment?

Stability
One idea suggested using CA for this. I'm not sure how this would work. CA puts more power in the hands of the ruler, but also makes the vassals unhappy, and more likely to revolt.
I'm thinking a synthesis of the other two ideas might work.
  • 2 stability - All immediate vassals have opinions over 0, and no revolts happening.
  • 1 stability - No revolts happening.
  • 0 stability - Some revolts happening, but not too many.
  • -1 stability - Total number of revolting provinces are above some threshold.

Prestige
Everyone seems to agree on score divided by a constant (1000 was suggested, though I'd probably increase that to keep values in the 0-34 range).
M0rdred makes a good case that we don't need to worry about the negative range.
However, prestige is another value that seems more transient in EU3 to me, and it might make more sense to use the current ruler's prestige. (But how I wish we could preserve score in EU3 to be used for prestige in V2 after double-conversion). Then again, you all are in agreement. So, make your case and finish convincing me. :-D

Starting Money
Three ideas here: just convert it directly; divide it by a constant; or use EU3 income (13 months worth), with bonuses for different CK2 amounts of money.
I kind of like the last idea (I'm assuming EU3 start money is 13 months of income as well?), because I remember proportional conversion of money in CK1 to EU3 led to people too frequently having tons and tons of money at game start. What kinds of money do rulers tend to hold at the end of CK2?

Infamy
I like the idea of summing everyone's opinion of you. However, that all EU3 nations start with 0 is compelling, and I'm going to copy that.

Legitimacy
Again, the idea of using the proportion of non-revolters to total vassals is a good one. And again that all nations in EU3 start with 100 is more compelling.


That should be everything. Any further thoughts? And for that matter, are there any nation-level mechanics I haven't brought up in discussion yet?
 
Last edited:

Mordred Viking

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Awesome! Phew, had me worried that I would be trying to achieve the impossible. Wasn't looking forward to holding them as an ally against the Hordes!

EDIT: You beat me with your 2nd post.

Tradition : Using Ruler / Advisor stats sounds good to me, though I would use the full stat (ie Ruler + Wife + Advisor) as this will be a fuller representation of the strengths of that particular nation, at that time.

Stability : Sounds good to me. My only concern was that if it was based on revolts; that these could break out at any time, and not really represent the true stability of the nation (i've found revolts occur a lot in CK2, and mostly are quickly crushed... would be a shame if the conversion happened during an ill timed revolt), but using opinions is a good way around this problem. If you are going to weigh revolts heavily, then please take the War Score into account (ie only count them if they are "winning" the revolt).

Prestige : Sounds good.

Starting Money : I am definitely in favour of 13 months income, otherwise some bigger nations (like the HRE or Byzantines) will start with like 10,000 gold if it was a straight currency to currency conversion.

Infamy / Legitimacy : Sounds good.

As to other nation-level details, what about Sliders and National Ideas?

EDIT AGAIN : Sorry, just saw a previous discussion on Sliders, scratch that.
 
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johnjohansson

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It seems to be well thought out.

I agree with M0rdred on using state attributes (ruler+wife/2+advisor) rather than only ruler attribs (EU3 is about countries, not individuals, after all). You may end up with quite high numbers this way, so x0.5 or x0.75 might be a good idea. On the other hand - as you say - they are transient and will get in line sooner or later.

I suppose learning would be used for culture, and martial for both army and navy tradition? It might actually be a good idea to combine the suggestions then, and include some form of coastal provs/totals provs ratio just to make sure landlocked (or almost landlocked) countries don't end up with too high navy tradition (and possibly vice versa). Then again, the tradition values will normalize eventually so it's not a big problem.

As for storing prestige for V2 purposes, is it possible to put comments in the save file? Otherwise, might just input the value where the name of some backwater province capital used to be... ;-)
 

Idhrendur

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While I implement the last round of ideas, I need people to look into technology for me. For the moment, let's focus on ROTW technology. Specifically, how does the game know what tech levels a country starts at for any given start date.

Useful sub-questions:
  • Does investment at any tech level always equal zero, or is there investment at start?
  • Are tech levels all the same within a given technology group?
  • Is this data just in some files somewhere? (I couldn't find it, but it still might be)
 

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While I implement the last round of ideas, I need people to look into technology for me. For the moment, let's focus on ROTW technology. Specifically, how does the game know what tech levels a country starts at for any given start date.

Useful sub-questions:
  • Does investment at any tech level always equal zero, or is there investment at start?
  • Are tech levels all the same within a given technology group?
  • Is this data just in some files somewhere? (I couldn't find it, but it still might be)

Very generally speaking, the western countries tend to be all tech 3, the large middle eastern countries (mamluks) tend to be tech 5, the north american natives tend to be tech 0, and so on. I could have sworn that all of this information was in history files, but now all of a sudden i can't find it...
 

Idhrendur

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Very generally speaking, the western countries tend to be all tech 3, the large middle eastern countries (mamluks) tend to be tech 5, the north american natives tend to be tech 0, and so on. I could have sworn that all of this information was in history files, but now all of a sudden i can't find it...

You're thinking of the values in common/technology.txt. Which are a good starting point. What I'm wondering about is how we derive that kind of information for later start dates.
 

Mordred Viking

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But how do we use this to define starting tech levels? We will need to divide the world on a basis of 2 - 5.

Actual Tech; Luckily tech in CK2 is handled on a scale of 1 to 5, and we could just copy this straight across, with a different ratio for the different tech types, for example:

Military
100% Land
75% Naval
25% Production

Economy
75% Trade
50% Production
25% Naval

Culture
100% Government
25% Production
25% Trade

Tech Group; keep this split by religion as it is more or less accurate for the period, so Latin / Muslim / Eastern European / African. Alternatively if you want more of an "Alternate history" feel, you could give tech groups out depending on their overall tech level. So the top 40% are Latin, next 30% are Muslim, next 20% are Eastern, bottom 10% are African.
 

Idhrendur

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I was about to implement the rules I came up with for stability, when I realized we hadn't pinned down the exact rule for ROTW stability. So I did some investigating.

It looks like at core, everyone starts with +1 stability. But if you start at war, 1 is subtracted. And if you have rebels, 1 is subtracted (poor Lithuania is the only nation that get both of those). Then, one month's worth of investment is added. For some very small nations, this is enough to kick them up one stability level. Because stability investment can depend on controlled cardinals (and because those are random at game start), the exact nations this happens to can vary. Gelre is one that gets this consistently.

In any case, this is a set of rules that can be pretty easily adapted to converted nations as well. And it has the advantage of not making me look at CK2 data directly, and thus being easier to program. Any objections to me using this one?
 

Idhrendur

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But how do we use this to define starting tech levels? We will need to divide the world on a basis of 2 - 5.

Actual Tech; Luckily tech in CK2 is handled on a scale of 1 to 5, and we could just copy this straight across, with a different ratio for the different tech types, for example:

Military
100% Land
75% Naval
25% Production

Economy
75% Trade
50% Production
25% Naval

Culture
100% Government
25% Production
25% Trade

Tech Group; keep this split by religion as it is more or less accurate for the period, so Latin / Muslim / Eastern European / African. Alternatively if you want more of an "Alternate history" feel, you could give tech groups out depending on their overall tech level. So the top 40% are Latin, next 30% are Muslim, next 20% are Eastern, bottom 10% are African.

Tech groups have already been implemented, using a modification of the idea in this post (the modifications being that we only use the Western, Eastern, Ottoman, Muslim, and Sub Saharan tech groups; adjustments to the tiers based on the EU3 tech growth rates; and automatically putting the hordes in the nomad tech group [unless they turned Christian, which is the CK2 way for them to settle down] ).

As for the tech levels themselves, your idea is good (and much much simpler than what I have currently implemented, which is nice), except it leaves out the potential for post 1399 start dates, which is most start dates. And while there are 'average' tech levels for given years in the data files, the relationship between those values and the actual tech levels (and tech investment) for any given nation at any given start point is unknown.
 

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I wouldn't worry too much about the tech levels for odd starting dates actually, EU3 has an inbuilt normalisation for technology which will slow / speed it up until its balanced. What we're most interested in (I think) are the differences between nations at the start.

Your stability system sounds fine to me!
 

thekinguter

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You could, but they're not really the same thing at all, no more than pagan Pomeranian is German Pomeranian or CK2 Prussian is EU3 Prussian.

It would totally suck to play as the Anglo-saxons, with the goal of keeping England Saxon, and then converting over to English. Maybe the converter mod can adress this? Adding a culture called Anglosaxon to the British group?

Also, Galician culture exists in EUIII but not on CKII. Maybe if Galicia is christian and castillian in CKII and owns provinces in Iberia (castillian-christian provinces) they convert to Galician instead of castilian. And what about the Alans? What do they map to?
 

johnjohansson

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Specifically, how does the game know what tech levels a country starts at for any given start date.

Did some googling, and these two threads seem to indicate that the game calculates tech level for later starts using income, tech group, average year of the techs, misc modifiers (NI:s etc).

I dind't find anything concrete or specific about these calculations unfortunately, but that may be due to low googling skills on my part.

Is it possible to use some approximation of income (we've got/will have income calculated, right?) and the tech cost formula on the wiki? If that's not feasible I guess we could just approximate it using average dates for the techs and scaling it down for non-latin tech groups. Unless someone else has a better/more elegant idea, of course.
 

tamius23

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It would totally suck to play as the Anglo-saxons, with the goal of keeping England Saxon, and then converting over to English. Maybe the converter mod can adress this? Adding a culture called Anglosaxon to the British group?

Also, Galician culture exists in EUIII but not on CKII. Maybe if Galicia is christian and castillian in CKII and owns provinces in Iberia (castillian-christian provinces) they convert to Galician instead of castilian. And what about the Alans? What do they map to?

Here are the cultural conversion rules:

Culture Mapping Rules:

Code:
cultureMap = {

## Germanic
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = pommeranian de_jure = d_pommerania }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = pommeranian de_jure = d_pomeralia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = pommeranian de_jure = d_mecklemburg }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = prussian de_jure = d_livonia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = prussian de_jure = d_prussia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = prussian de_jure = d_polotsk }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = prussian de_jure = d_lithuanians }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = prussian de_jure = d_courland }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = prussian de_jure = d_samogitia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = hannoverian de_jure = d_brunswick }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = hannoverian de_jure = d_skane }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = hannoverian de_jure = d_sjaelland }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = hannoverian de_jure = d_slesvig }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = hannoverian de_jure = d_holstein }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = hessian de_jure = d_thuringia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = saxon de_jure = d_saxony }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = saxon de_jure = d_brandenburg }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = saxon de_jure = d_meissen }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = saxon de_jure = d_mazovia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = saxon de_jure = d_greater_poland }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = saxon de_jure = d_lesser_poland }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = saxon de_jure = d_kuyavia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_koln }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_provence }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_savoie }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_dauphine }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_upper_burgundy }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_luxembourg }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_upper_lorraine }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_lower_lorraine }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_alsace }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_susa }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_lombardia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_genoa }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_modena }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_toscana }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_pisa }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_latium }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_sardinia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_aquitaine }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_sardinia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_toulouse }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_gascogne }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_poitou }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_auvergne }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_bourbon }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_berry }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_champagne }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = rheinlaender de_jure = d_burgundy }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = bavarian de_jure = d_franconia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = bavarian de_jure = d_baden }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = bavarian de_jure = d_swabia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = bavarian de_jure = d_franconia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = bavarian de_jure = d_bavaria }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = bavarian de_jure = d_bohemia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = bavarian de_jure = d_moravia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_osterreich }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_tyrol }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_carinthia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_pecs }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_esztergom }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_nyitra }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_ungvar }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_pest }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_transylvania }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_temes }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_slavonia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_bosnia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_croatia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_dalmatia }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_temes }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_venice }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_verona }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_ferrara }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_ancona }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = austrian de_jure = d_spoleto }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = dutch de_jure = d_holland }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = dutch de_jure = d_gelre }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = dutch de_jure = d_brabant }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = dutch de_jure = d_flanders }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = dutch de_jure = d_anjou }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = dutch de_jure = d_normandy }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = dutch de_jure = d_orleans }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = dutch de_jure = d_valois }
link = { ck2 = german eu3 = hessian }
link = { ck2 = dutch eu3 = flemish kingdom_culture = frankish }
link = { ck2 = dutch eu3 = flemish kingdom_culture = norman }
link = { ck2 = dutch eu3 = flemish kingdom_culture = occitan }
link = { ck2 = dutch eu3 = dutch }

## Scandinavian
link = { ck2 = swedish eu3 = swedish }
link = { ck2 = danish eu3 = danish }
link = { ck2 = norwegian eu3 = norwegian }

## British
link = { ck2 = saxon eu3 = english }
link = { ck2 = english eu3 = english }
link = { ck2 = scottish eu3 = scottish }

## Gaelic
link = { ck2 = welsh eu3 = welsh }
link = { ck2 = breton eu3 = breton }
link = { ck2 = irish eu3 = irish }

## Latin
link = { ck2 = italian eu3 = lombard de_jure = d_venice }
link = { ck2 = italian eu3 = lombard de_jure = d_verona }
link = { ck2 = italian eu3 = lombard de_jure = d_susa }
link = { ck2 = italian eu3 = lombard de_jure = d_genoa }
link = { ck2 = italian eu3 = lombard de_jure = k_italy hre_member = true }
link = { ck2 = italian eu3 = umbrian de_jure = k_italy }
link = { ck2 = italian eu3 = sicilian de_jure = K_sicily }
link = { ck2 = italian eu3 = sicilian de_jure = d_benevento }
link = { ck2 = italian eu3 = sicilian de_jure = d_capua }
link = { ck2 = italian eu3 = sicilian de_jure = d_apulia }
link = { ck2 = italian eu3 = sicilian de_jure = d_salerno }
link = { ck2 = italian eu3 = sicilian de_jure = d_calabria }
link = { ck2 = italian eu3 = sicilian de_jure = d_sicily }
link = { ck2 = italian eu3 = umbrian }

## Iberian
link = { ck2 = castillan eu3 = castillian }
link = { ck2 = catalan eu3 = catalan }
link = { ck2 = castillan eu3 = galician de_jure = d_galicia }
link = { ck2 = castillan eu3 = galician de_jure = d_porto }
link = { ck2 = portuguese eu3 = galician de_jure = d_galicia }
link = { ck2 = portuguese eu3 = galician de_jure = d_porto }
link = { ck2 = andalusian_arabic eu3 = andalucian }
link = { ck2 = portuguese eu3 = portugese }
link = { ck2 = castillan eu3 = maltese de_jure = K_sicily }
link = { ck2 = castillan eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_benevento }
link = { ck2 = castillan eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_capua }
link = { ck2 = castillan eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_apulia }
link = { ck2 = castillan eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_salerno }
link = { ck2 = castillan eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_calabria }
link = { ck2 = castillan eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_sicily }
link = { ck2 = catalan eu3 = maltese de_jure = K_sicily }
link = { ck2 = catalan eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_benevento }
link = { ck2 = catalan eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_capua }
link = { ck2 = catalan eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_apulia }
link = { ck2 = catalan eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_salerno }
link = { ck2 = catalan eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_calabria }
link = { ck2 = catalan eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_sicily }
link = { ck2 = andalusian_arabic eu3 = maltese de_jure = K_sicily }
link = { ck2 = andalusian_arabic eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_benevento }
link = { ck2 = andalusian_arabic eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_capua }
link = { ck2 = andalusian_arabic eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_apulia }
link = { ck2 = andalusian_arabic eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_salerno }
link = { ck2 = andalusian_arabic eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_calabria }
link = { ck2 = andalusian_arabic eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_sicily }
link = { ck2 = portuguese eu3 = maltese de_jure = K_sicily }
link = { ck2 = portuguese eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_benevento }
link = { ck2 = portuguese eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_capua }
link = { ck2 = portuguese eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_apulia }
link = { ck2 = portuguese eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_salerno }
link = { ck2 = portuguese eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_calabria }
link = { ck2 = portuguese eu3 = maltese de_jure = d_sicily }

## french
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = gascon de_jure = d_gascogne }
link = { ck2 = norman eu3 = normand }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = aquitaine de_jure = d_aquitaine }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = aquitaine de_jure = d_poitou }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = aquitaine de_jure = d_berry }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = aquitaine de_jure = d_anjou }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = aquitaine de_jure = d_normandy }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = aquitaine de_jure = d_orleans }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = aquitaine de_jure = d_champagne }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = aquitaine de_jure = d_valois }
link = { ck2 = frankish eu3 = burgundian de_jure = d_burgundy }
link = { ck2 = frankish eu3 = burgundian de_jure = d_savoie }
link = { ck2 = frankish eu3 = burgundian de_jure = d_burgundy }
link = { ck2 = frankish eu3 = burgundian de_jure = d_dauphine }
link = { ck2 = frankish eu3 = burgundian de_jure = d_upper_burgundy }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = occitain de_jure = d_toulouse }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = occitain de_jure = d_auvergne }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = occitain de_jure = d_bourbon }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = occitain de_jure = d_burgundy }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = occitain de_jure = d_savoie }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = occitain de_jure = d_dauphine }
link = { ck2 = occitan eu3 = occitain de_jure = d_upper_burgundy }
link = { ck2 = frankish eu3 = wallonian de_jure = d_holland }
link = { ck2 = frankish eu3 = wallonian de_jure = d_gelre }
link = { ck2 = frankish eu3 = wallonian de_jure = d_brabant }
link = { ck2 = frankish eu3 = wallonian de_jure = d_flanders }
link = { ck2 = frankish eu3 = cosmopolitan_french }

## Basque
link = { ck2 = basque eu3 = basque }

## Finno-Ugric
link = { ck2 = ugricbaltic eu3 = ugricbaltic }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = estonian de_jure = d_esthonia }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = estonian de_jure = d_livonia }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = estonian de_jure = d_prussia }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = estonian de_jure = d_polotsk }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = estonian de_jure = d_lithuanians }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = estonian de_jure = d_courland }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = estonian de_jure = d_samogitia }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = estonian de_jure = d_novgorod }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = estonian de_jure = d_rostov }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = estonian de_jure = d_tver }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = estonian de_jure = d_yaroslavl }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = estonian de_jure = d_vladimir }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = estonian de_jure = d_moskva }
link = { ck2 = lappish eu3 = sapmi }
#link = { ck2 = ?? eu3 = ingrian }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = karelian de_jure = d_karelia }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = karelian de_jure = d_bjarmia }
link = { ck2 = finnsh eu3 = karelian de_jure = d_beloozero }
link = { ck2 = finnish eu3 = finnish }

## South Slavic
link = { ck2 = croatian eu3 = croatian }
link = { ck2 = serbian eu3 = albanian de_jure = d_nikaea }
link = { ck2 = serbian eu3 = albanian de_jure = d_samos }
link = { ck2 = serbian eu3 = albanian de_jure = d_aegean_islands }
link = { ck2 = serbian eu3 = albanian de_jure = d_thrace }
link = { ck2 = serbian eu3 = albanian de_jure = d_adrianopolis }
link = { ck2 = serbian eu3 = albanian de_jure = d_thessalonika }
link = { ck2 = serbian eu3 = albanian de_jure = d_dyrrachion }
link = { ck2 = serbian eu3 = albanian de_jure = d_epirus }
link = { ck2 = serbian eu3 = albanian de_jure = d_athens }
link = { ck2 = serbian eu3 = albanian de_jure = d_achaia }
link = { ck2 = serbian eu3 = albanian de_jure = d_krete }
link = { ck2 = serbian eu3 = albanian de_jure = d_cyprus }
link = { ck2 = serbian eu3 = albanian de_jure = d_cibyrrhaeot }
link = { ck2 = serbian eu3 = serbian }
link = { ck2 = bulgarian eu3 = bulgarian }
link = { ck2 = romanian eu3 = romanian }

# West Slavic
link = { ck2 = bohemian eu3 = czech }
link = { ck2 = hungarian eu3 = hungarian }
link = { ck2 = polish eu3 = schlesian de_jure = d_silesia }
link = { ck2 = polish eu3 = schlesian de_jure = d_bohemia }
link = { ck2 = polish eu3 = schlesian de_jure = d_moravia }
link = { ck2 = polish ck2 = pommeranian eu3 = polish }

## East Slavic
link = { ck2 = komi eu3 = russian }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = byelorussian de_jure = d_turov }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = byelorussian de_jure = d_volhynia }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = byelorussian de_jure = d_livonia }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = byelorussian de_jure = d_prussia }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = byelorussian de_jure = d_polotsk }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = byelorussian de_jure = d_lithuanians }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = byelorussian de_jure = d_courland }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = byelorussian de_jure = d_samogitia }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = byelorussian de_jure = d_mazovia }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = byelorussian de_jure = d_greater_poland }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = byelorussian de_jure = d_silesia }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = byelorussian de_jure = d_lesser_poland }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = byelorussian de_jure = d_kuyavia }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = ruthenian de_jure = d_kiev }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = ruthenian de_jure = d_galich }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = ruthenian de_jure = d_pecs }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = ruthenian de_jure = d_esztergom }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = ruthenian de_jure = d_nyitra }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = ruthenian de_jure = d_ungvar }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = ruthenian de_jure = d_pest }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = ruthenian de_jure = d_transylvania }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = ruthenian de_jure = d_temes }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = ruthenian de_jure = d_wallachia }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = ruthenian de_jure = d_moldau }
link = { ck2 = russian eu3 = russian }

## Baltic
link = { ck2 = lithuanian eu3 = lithuanian }
link = { ck2 = prussian eu3 = old_prussian }
link = { ck2 = lettigallish eu3 = latvian }

## Byzantine
link = { ck2 = greek eu3 = greek }
link = { ck2 = georgian eu3 = georgian }
link = { ck2 = armenian eu3 = armenian }

## Turko-Semitic
link = { ck2 = maghreb_arabic eu3 = maghreb_arabic de_jure = d_marrakech }
link = { ck2 = egyptian_arabic eu3 = al_misr_arabic }
link = { ck2 = levantine_arabic eu3 = al_iraqiya_arabic religion = shiite }
link = { ck2 = levantine_arabic eu3 = al_suryah_arabic }
link = { ck2 = bedouin_arabic eu3 = bedouin_arabic }
link = { ck2 = maghreb_arabic eu3 = berber }
link = { ck2 = turkish eu3 = turkish }

## Iranian
link = { ck2 = kurdish eu3 = persian }
link = { ck2 = persian eu3 = east_persian de_jure = d_khorasan }
link = { ck2 = persian eu3 = east_persian de_jure = d_merv }
link = { ck2 = persian eu3 = east_persian de_jure = d_khiva }
link = { ck2 = persian eu3 = east_persian de_jure = d_bukhara }
link = { ck2 = persian eu3 = east_persian de_jure = d_khwarizmian }
link = { ck2 = persian eu3 = east_persian de_jure = d_aktobe }
link = { ck2 = persian eu3 = baluchi de_jure = d_hormuz }
link = { ck2 = persian eu3 = baluchi de_jure = d_birjand }
link = { ck2 = persian eu3 = persian }

## Altaic
link = { ck2 = alan ck2 = cuman ck2 = pecheneg eu3 = tartar }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_kermanshah }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_tigris }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_basra }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_baghdad }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_mosul }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_tabriz }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_kartli }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_derbent }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_abkhazia }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_azerbaijan }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_armenia }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_mesopotamia }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_edessa }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_coloneia }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = azerbadjani de_jure = d_armenia_minor }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = turkmeni de_jure = d_khiva }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = turkmeni de_jure = d_bukhara }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = turkmeni de_jure = d_merv }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = turkmeni de_jure = d_khorasan }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = turkmeni de_jure = d_mazandaran }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = turkmeni de_jure = d_esfahan }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = turkmeni de_jure = d_hormuz }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = turkmeni de_jure = d_fars }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = turkmeni de_jure = d_hamadan }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = turkmeni de_jure = d_birjand }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = uralic de_jure = c_ryn_desert }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = uralic de_jure = c_mansia }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = uralic de_jure = c_tyumen }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = siberian de_jure = c_omsk }
link = { ck2 = mongol eu3 = tartar }

## African
#link = { ck2 = ?? eu3 = tuareg }
#link = { ck2 = ?? eu3 = nubian }
link = { ck2 = ethiopian eu3 = somali religion = muslim }
link = { ck2 = ethiopian eu3 = ethiopian }
link = { ck2 = manden eu3 = mali religion = sunni }
link = { ck2 = manden eu3 = ashanti }
}

First of all, I've ordered the ruler more-or-less in the same order as EU3 cultures are defined. It's just helpful.

The German culture group was interesting. CK2 only has German, EU3 has a plethora of cultures. I tried to identify where these cultures are in EU3 at 1399, then make them convert to EU3 appropriately. Then I looked at surrounding countries, and tried to assign appropriate Germanic cultures to those regions in case of culture spread. Finally, the generic German rule is Hessian because they get only two or three provinces, and they need some love. Also, it's then obvious when that rule has been invoked.

Dutch is included under the EU3 German group. It would seem a straightforward mapping, but EU3 includes Flemish and Wallonian where CK2 has nothing equivalent. Thus, I made it so German culture spreading into Frisia become Dutch (in addition to Dutch remaining Dutch), Dutch ruled over by French rulers becomes Flemish, and Frankish culture spreading into Frisia becomes Wallonian. People who know the regional history better then me (read 'at-all') are probably horrified. Well, you are more than welcome to fix things. I'd really rather you do.

The Latin group is again tricky. Everything Italian in de jure Sicily (or the southern duchies in case they become part of another kingdom) becomes Sicilian. Everything Italian in Venice, Verona, Susa, and Genoa become Lombard. Everything Italian in the de jure kingdom of Italy that is also an HRE member becomes Lombard. Everything else become Umbrian (again, because it doesn't get much love). Using the HRE border is different, but it seems to match pretty well in EU3 (though probably is the cause of that border, not the result).

The Iberian group is pretty straightforward, except for the EU3 cultures Galacian and Maltese. Castillian or Portuguese in Galacia and Porto become Galacian. Any Iberian culture spreading into the Sicilian duchies become Maltese.

The French cultures are surprisingly complex. Occitan can become Gascon, Aquitaine, or Occitain depending on region, including spread into new countries (except Iberia, I forgot to do that for Iberia. I'll leave that to someone else). Frankish can become Wallonian, Burgundian, or Cosmopolitan French, depending on where it expands (Cosmopolitan French being the default for regions I don't address).

The Ughric-Baltic group is a little complicated. Ugricbaltic is a direct map. But Finnish can become Estonian, Karelian, or Finnish based on region. Oh, and Lappish becomes Sapmi/Sami, they seem to occupy the same provinces. I didn't know what to do for EU3 Ingrian, but it never seems to appear, anyways.

South Slavic is straightforward, except Serbian becomes Albanian is it spreads into Byzantine Duchies (there's no Albanian in CK2!).

West Slavic is mostly straightforward. Polish can become Schlesian in Silesia and Bohemia. Pommeranian becomes Polish in EU3 (we should probably add something to the converter mod, I forgot at that stage).

East Slavic has a ton of splitting of cultures. CK2 only had Russian, EU3 also has Byelorussian and Ruthenian. Again, this is by region, including potential spread. Also, Komi becomes Russian, but is added to the converter mod.

The Baltic group is straightforward (Lettiggallish become Lithuanian is the only non-obvious one just from the names).

Turko-semitic is also close to straightforward (though many names change significantly). Exceptions are Levantine Arabic, which becomes Al Iraqiya Arabic in Shiite provinces and Al Suryah Arabic elsewhere; and Maghreb Arabic, which mostly becomes Berber, except in the duchy of Marrakech.

Iranian: Kurdish becomes Persian, except in the converter mod, where it's been added. Persian becomes Persian, except in eastern duchies where it becomes East Persian, and in Hormuz and Birjand where it becomes Baluchi.

Altaic is weird. Alan, Cuman, and Pecheneg all become Tartar, except in the converter mod, where all are included. Mongol gets divvied up into Azerbadjani, Turkmeni, Uralic, or Siberian in certain regions. It defaults to Tartar. It never becomes EU3 Mongol, because in EU3 that's only in the far east.

In the African group, Ethiopian becomes Somali in Muslim regions, Ethiopian otherwise. Likewise, Manden becomes Mali in Sunni regions, Ashanti otherwise. I couldn't figure any good ways to work in Tuareg or Nubian, though they appear in EU3.

Scandinavian, British, Gaelic, Basque, and Byzantine cultures all map pretty directly. Except for Saxon, which does not correspond to Germanic Saxon, but kind of to nothing in EU3. It's mapped to English, and Anglo-Saxon is added to the converter mod.

So Portuguese and Castilians in Galicia become Galicians, which makes sense.

Idhrendur, I don't know why the Komi map to Russians; I think the Uralic culture in EU3 is supposed to represent some of the peoples living in European Russia, and Uralic is a name for the group in which the Komi languages fall, along with Finnish. Not sure why it's in the Altaic rather than Finno-Ugric grouping, it might be like Hungarian in that it's grouped that way because its neighbours are.

I don't know whether you've updated the rules since posting them, but Finnish seems to be misspelled in most of the places you've written it.

There isn't a Ugric Baltic culture in EU3, it's the equivalent of Estonian, but Ugric Baltic doesn't have any provinces as of patch 1.06.

The Maltese language is a Semitic language like Arabic and Hebrew, and I have no idea why it is in the Iberian grouping in EU3. You might want to change that rule to any Arabic culture in Malta rather than Iberian.

Karelian and Ingrian cultures never appear in EU3, but I think that's an oversight or a remnant of previous versions. Ingria is the area around St. Petersburg, so Ingrians should be Finns from that part of the world.
 

Idhrendur

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It would totally suck to play as the Anglo-saxons, with the goal of keeping England Saxon, and then converting over to English. Maybe the converter mod can adress this? Adding a culture called Anglosaxon to the British group?

Also, Galician culture exists in EUIII but not on CKII. Maybe if Galicia is christian and castillian in CKII and owns provinces in Iberia (castillian-christian provinces) they convert to Galician instead of castilian. And what about the Alans? What do they map to?

tamius linked my post which digs into all of this, but it's a huge wall of text. So:

I agree with Anglo-Saxons. They are in the mod (in their own culture group, to boot).

And I agree about Galician. If Galacia or Porto are Castillian or Portuguese on conversion, they'll convert to Galician.

Alan become Tartar on conversion. But Alan is added to the mod, so Alan will remain Alan (in the Altaic group).