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Italian I've identified 6. Lombard is the only reused culture. Since Italian only has three cultures in its native group, it's hard to reduce it further. I considered Sicilian for Africa, but it just feels wrong. I also considered using Vagante for Africa, but since Italians are likely to appear in the Balkans we'd likely have every game with African-Italians also have Italians in the Balkans. Any avoidance we can achieve of having a situation where all of these people are thrown into the same pot I think is positive.
The 6 I've identified would be:
Inglese
Francese Iberica Carpata Africana
Vagante
French
Mainly divided by CK2 Empires
Byzantine Empire - Grecque (The French word for Greek [the people])
Scandinavia - Nordique (The French word for Norse)
The French world for the Greek people is Grec (or Hellène), not Grecque which is only used for female from Greece. The culture is however called grecque or hellène.
The French word for Norse is rather Norrois, Norois or Norrain, the culture is norroise, noroise, norrène or norraine.
Apart from those minor errors, I fear it may be really disturbing to read "Allemand" or "Ibère" as a label for an in fact French culture. I would prefer to read "Imperial French" or "Hispanian French" when there is no possible words (but for French cultures of provinces of the kingdom of Lotharingia and of Burgundy, Lorrain and Burgundian may be better, to take those specific examples, and in Netherlands, Walloon and Picard are better choices).
Well if I may oppose some :
Arabia (or Middle-East in general ) : Outremer (ou Poulain but that one was pejorative) which was in a way the culture of the kingdom of Jerusalem (so it could be used in k_jerusalem ; k_egypt ; k_syria and k_arabia )
Byzantine Empire : "Latin" would be better than "Grec" since French cultured provinces would be surely the result of the Latin Empire
North Africa : "Pieds-Noirs" (used to talk about the French settlers in Algeria)
Brittania : I would go with "Briton" more than "Brittanique" but well I'd differentiate Anglo-Saxon areas and Celtic areas (Briton for the former and Anglois for the latter)
- Outre-mer (oversea) is a territorial noon, for people you'll have to use Ultra-marin and ultra-marine for culture
- Crusaders in Balkans and Near East were called "Celt" (or Gaul? I don't remember) by Greeks and "Franks" by Arabs. They may be called "Franks".
- Pieds-Noirs is a bit anachronistic, but well... why not as it would still be the better word for them AFAIK.
The French world for the Greek people is Grec (or Hellène), not Grecque which is only used for female from Greece.
The French word for Norse is rather Norrois, Norois or Norrain.
Apart from those minor errors, I fear it may be really disturbing to read "Allemand" or "Ibère" as a label for an in fact French culture. I would prefer to read "Imperial French" or "Hispanian French" when there is no possible words (but for French cultures of provinces of the kingdom of Lotharingia and of Burgundy, Lorrain and Burgundian may be better, to take those specific examples).
Well depends if we talk about the culture then it's "Grecque", if it's the people it's "Grec". Anyway, we have discussed Rhomain for a better name
"Nordique" could work although "Norrois" has a medieval look I like. Where did you read Norrain ? Never heard or read it before
Well Burgundian and Lorrain are basically the same in EU IV, so I've thought of Burgundian for all Lotharagian areas except Greater Netherlands which would be Walloon.
Impérial could work but if there is no HRE then it has no sense
Ibère is the best we can get for the area I fear. "Ultrapyrénéens" could work but seems so weird
Well depends if we talk about the culture then it's "Grecque", if it's the people it's "Grec". Anyway, we have discussed Rhomain for a better name
"Nordique" could work although "Norrois" has a medieval look I like. Where did you read Norrain ? Never heard or read it before
Well Burgundian and Lorrain are basically the same in EU IV, so I've thought of Burgundian for all Lotharagian areas except Greater Netherlands which would be Walloon.
Impérial could work but if there is no HRE then it has no sense
Ibère is the best we can get for the area I fear. "Ultrapyrénéens" could work but seems so weird
Yep, that's right for the culture, I have edited my previous post. (please note however that if we talk about the culture it's grecque, without initial capital).
Nordique could certainly work, but it is not the French for "Norse" but for "Northerner".
About Norrain, that's what say my dictionary:
Trésor de la langue française said:
Norrain, -aine, adj. et subst.a)Adj. et subst. (Celui, celle, ce) qui appartenait autrefois au nord de l'Europe. Et la reine des Huns, errant loin de son fleuve, Et celle des Norrains, hardis monteurs de nefs (Leconte de Lisle, Poèmes barb., 1878, p.96).Ne dormirai-je point sous un sol étranger, Exilée à jamais de nos plages Norraines? (Leconte de Lisle, Poèmes barb., 1878, p.97).b)Ling.,subst. masc. sing., synon. de (vieux) norrois.Un homme du plus haut mérite, doyen de Strasbourg, Bergmann, seul maître dans le norrain (Sainte-Beuve, Nouv. lundis, t.11, 1868, p.445).
Qui appartient à la Norvége.Langue norraine, langue de la Norvége, de l'Islande. Quoique le vieux norrain ne soit qu'un dialecte de la langue que les Angles et les Saxons introduisirent dans la Grande-Bretagne. [Max Müller, Essais de mythologie comparée, trad. par G. Perrot, p. 224, Paris, 1873]
On trouve aussi norrène au féminin. Les sagas sont, pour la plupart, de simples récits biographiques, des chroniques de famille, rédigées dans cette langue norrène qui a été jusqu'au quatorzième siècle la langue commune de tout le nord. [A. Geffroy, Rev. des Deux-Mondes, 1er nov. 1875, p. 116]
- Outre-mer (oversea) is a territorial noon, for people you'll have to use Ultra-marin and ultra-marine for culture
- Crusaders in Balkans and Near East were called "Celt" (or Gaul? I don't remember) by Greeks and "Franks" by Arabs. They may be called "Franks".
- Pieds-Noirs is a bit anachronistic, but well... why not.
Since we have to limit the tags and the cultures, one culture for North Africa and the Middle-East could be good enough : Ultra-Marin would be good but I don't know why I like the feeling of Outremer (even if it would be incorrect gramatically )
Since we have to limit the tags and the cultures, one culture for North Africa and the Middle-East could be good enough : Ultra-Marin would be good but I don't know why I like the feeling of Outremer (even if it would be incorrect gramatically )
More better for its sounding in a Swedish or English ear, perhaps, certainly, I don't know… But grammatically, at first, it look like a rough mistake...
I see however, and am a bit surprised, that Outre-mer exist, as a metonymy, to label inhabitants of French Overseas. Its a rare and outmoded meaning, but may indeed fit to label people (rather than culture).
− Empl. subst. inv., rare, vx, p.méton. Personne originaire des îles. Moi, de qui les parents étaient à quelques lieues de là, je restais dans les cours avec les Outre-mer, nom donné aux écoliers dont les familles se trouvaient aux îles ou à l'étranger (Balzac,Lys,1836, p.11).
More better for its sounding in a Swedish or English ear, perhaps, certainly, I don't know… But grammatically, at first, it look like a rough mistake...
I see however, and am a bit surprised, that Outre-mer exist, as a metonymy, to label inhabitants of French Overseas. Its a rare and outmoded meaning, but may indeed fit to label people (rather than culture).
− Empl. subst. inv., rare, vx, p.méton. Personne originaire des îles. Moi, de qui les parents étaient à quelques lieues de là, je restais dans les cours avec les Outre-mer, nom donné aux écoliers dont les familles se trouvaient aux îles ou à l'étranger (Balzac,Lys,1836, p.11).
More better for its sounding in a Swedish or English ear, perhaps, certainly, I don't know… But grammatically, at first, it look like a rough mistake...
I see however, and am a bit surprised, that Outre-mer exist, as a metonymy, to label inhabitants of French Overseas. Its a rare and outmoded meaning, but may indeed fit to label people (rather than culture).
− Empl. subst. inv., rare, vx, p.méton. Personne originaire des îles. Moi, de qui les parents étaient à quelques lieues de là, je restais dans les cours avec les Outre-mer, nom donné aux écoliers dont les familles se trouvaient aux îles ou à l'étranger (Balzac,Lys,1836, p.11).
Well, as a frenchspeaker, even if it is gramatically wrong, it sounds better than Ultra-Marin. But it might cause confusion , and in that case it is better to use something else.
Ok forgive my ignorance, but Eu3 was before my paradox days, how similar are the files and flags and such? I might take you up on that depending on what I'd have to do to get things working.
About the French map :
Occitain is far too widespread. Navarre should become Aquitaine culture.
Wallon should cover modern day Belgium
Otherwise fine for me
About the Norse? Well they aren't exactly in the same position as any other cultures that we spilt. Generally we only split cultures to achieve the vanilla EU4 cultures, but with Norse the children cultures Swedish, Danish, Russian and Norwegian all appear over the course of a game of CK2. We could make them appear manually, but in a game that is converted early (which is the most likely scenario for them needing to be split) Norse might still be culturally homogeneous enough to be a single culture.
The two other situations where we might want it 'fix' the Norse culture are games where the transition to the child cultures is stopped half way and games where Norse pockets end up all over the world.
Those games that are converted half way through transition to one of the child cultures can turn out pretty messily, you can end up with five or so Swedish counties and everything else in Sweden being Norse. The Swedish provinces are rarely even next to each other as they tend to pop up randomly all over the country. Perhaps we could have some kind of system to finish the conversion in these case. On the other hand in a different situation where most of the country is Swedish and a few are still Norse you can rationalises this into a nice narrative about areas of cultural traditionalists that aren't as supportive of the state, in this situations I'm not sure I would want to neaten them away.
Then there is the issue about what we might want to do about Norse nations that pop up all over the world. In the old gods start especially it is common to see Norse countries which never change from Norse in Britain, the Netherlands, Germany or Iberia. It does seem odd that the people of Scandinavia became culturally distinct enough from each other to form separate cultures, but nations isolated from their homeland and each other manage to keep their lifestyles in-sync with each other. In this case I can understand the wish to have back up 'whimsical cultures' for the Norse. In my very first version of the culture split I had Varangian culture spawn in the Byzantine area. The thing is that it is a lot of new tags and cultures and I have quite a lot of work ahead of me already. I'm happy to listen to what you think should be done with the Norse, but I'm not going to push it as a priority for the next version.
Ok not going to quote this bit because you have all had a lot to say about it, but my personal preference is that Outremer and Rhomain(or how ever we ended up falling on tweaking the name) be combined into a single region (I like Outremer best for the name) and we address the Latin Empire more directely.
The Latin Empire isn't exactly guaranteed to be any particular Western European culture. When it survives it often switches to other catholic cultures or flips to Greek despite being a different religion. I think if we want to address the Latin Empire we need to do it directly. Give it a TAG, force that TAG it to be 'Latin' culture and flip any provinces that are Catholic, a Western European culture and have a Byzantine or Latin Empire core to Latin culture. Going further a few purple phoenix style missions and events would be my eventual goal. The Latin Empire, just like the crusade that spawned it is a historical aberration which requires specific focus to handle correctly, at least that is my position on the matter.
Now back to the whimsical cultures. I'm going to be mean here and try to cut down the cultures a little, the British isles doesn't deserve all those cultures. We need one for the French split, but other than that no, we certainly don't need a British region specific Italian culture.
I have some ideas in regard to the German split. If the combination of France and Iberia is problematic then we could have the whole of Iberia default to Suebii. They are apparently already in Portugal in the CM start date. Also a little tweak, I would also suggest that Austrian shouldn't reach to the black sea. A German nation that arrives on the black sea seems more likely to me to have arrived there by crusade or adventure (remembering any nation that has a land connection to the German heartland is already converted to the appropriate culture by blobbing) in which case the Reisand is more appropriate
The extrageographic steppe. There's so many unknowns for me here. Khorasani are in vanilla EU4, and are a Turkic people of Iran, so I suggested making them available through the steppe culture split for Persia. Azerbaijan I think we have stuff for already? Unrelated question: does Persian split into Mazandarani in the area of Mazandaran already? The Russian region looked bound to have special rules/be included in the regular steppe split. I expect this one to be the most controversial.
The 6 new cultures I identified were:
Enetkhegiin
Arabyn - Maybe redraw the borders for this one?
Baltiin
Ungar
Khristed
Jalut
I would like to try find a way to combine Jalut and Arabyn. The first step would be to Include Circassian and Dagestani in the Caucuses and push Khorasani a little further west. Then maybe after that just combine the two regions.
Another thing we need to think about is the Turks. I know they exist in CK2 so spawning them may seem a little odd, but we could conceivably allow Turkish and Turkmeni(after they are split) to blob into erasable cultures at the same time we are blobbing the other steppe cultures. That might help neaten up Anatolia in quite a few games.
Anyway a massive thank you to Avrolancaster for the maps, they really helped keep the discussion understandable.
Then there is the issue about what we might want to do about Norse nations that pop up all over the world. In the old gods start especially it is common to see Norse countries which never change from Norse in Britain, the Netherlands, Germany or Iberia. It does seem odd that the people of Scandinavia became culturally distinct enough from each other to form separate cultures, but nations isolated from their homeland and each other manage to keep their lifestyles in-sync with each other. In this case I can understand the wish to have back up 'whimsical cultures' for the Norse. In my very first version of the culture split I had Varangian culture spawn in the Byzantine area. The thing is that it is a lot of new tags and cultures and I have quite a lot of work ahead of me already. I'm happy to listen to what you think should be done with the Norse, but I'm not going to push it as a priority for the next version.
This is what I was referring to as what I forgot about Norse.
It seems an absurdity to me that Anglo-Norse are just 'Norse,' Iberio-Norse are just 'Norse,' Indo-Norse are just 'Norse' and so on.
I can't see a solution for them that doesn't include whimsical cultures.
Ok not going to quote this bit because you have all had a lot to say about it, but my personal preference is that Outremer and Rhomain(or how ever we ended up falling on tweaking the name) be combined into a single region (I like Outremer best for the name) and we address the Latin Empire more directely.
The Latin Empire isn't exactly guaranteed to be any particular Western European culture. When it survives it often switches to other catholic cultures or flips to Greek despite being a different religion. I think if we want to address the Latin Empire we need to do it directly. Give it a TAG, force that TAG it to be 'Latin' culture and flip any provinces that are Catholic, a Western European culture and have a Byzantine or Latin Empire core to Latin culture. Going further a few purple phoenix style missions and events would be my eventual goal. The Latin Empire, just like the crusade that spawned it is a historical aberration which requires specific focus to handle correctly, at least that is my position on the matter.
The Latin Empire is ruled by a French and Dutch dynasty, and in all starts has a French ruler. It cannot be created in 99% of games, and as such it's nearly safe to assume it will have a French ruler in all but the most aberrant cases.
And here's what I feel about it.
We don't split Dutch, so Dutch probably needs no unique Latin Empire culture. We split French, and in doing so either assign Parisian "Cosmopolitaine" French to the Latin Empire regions, which seems inappropriate to me, or we leave it as "French" which is in my opinion the worst option, or we create a whimsical culture for them.
I don't see the argument for the Latin Empire requiring a unique culture. Distant regions having whimsical cultures are for precisely the situations that include a successful Latin Empire.
Now back to the whimsical cultures. I'm going to be mean here and try to cut down the cultures a little, the British isles doesn't deserve all those cultures. We need one for the French split, but other than that no, we certainly don't need a British region specific Italian culture.
I have some ideas in regard to the German split. If the combination of France and Iberia is problematic then we could have the whole of Iberia default to Suebii. They are apparently already in Portugal in the CM start date. Also a little tweak, I would also suggest that Austrian shouldn't reach to the black sea. A German nation that arrives on the black sea seems more likely to me to have arrived there by crusade or adventure (remembering any nation that has a land connection to the German heartland is already converted to the appropriate culture by blobbing) in which case the Reisand is more appropriate
Personally I'd rather see Iberia go to Reisand or Franzosen than Suebii. Making them go Suebii is the equivalent of making a Persian controlled Carpathia turn Avar. The Suebii were a specific historical people and to advance the notion that a medieval German state in Madrid would have any connection to them is preposterous. Also, I'm assuming Englisch is out? If we wanted to go nuts we could create a common Iberian/British exoGerman culture called Atlantik or something.
Onto the Steppe split
I would like to try find a way to combine Jalut and Arabyn. The first step would be to Include Circassian and Dagestani in the Caucuses and push Khorasani a little further west. Then maybe after that just combine the two regions.
If you threw Anatolia into the Caucasian/Azerbaijani/Dagestani/Circassian pot, you could divide Mesopotamia and the Arabian Peninsula between Khorasani (or whatever) and Jalut eliminating Arabyn.
Another thing we need to think about is the Turks. I know they exist in CK2 so spawning them may seem a little odd, but we could conceivably allow Turkish and Turkmeni(after they are split) to blob into erasable cultures at the same time we are blobbing the other steppe cultures. That might help neaten up Anatolia in quite a few games.
Steppe Turks north of the Turkestan line should probably be involved in the creation/spread of Khazak and Uzbek, since those cultures are the result of Turko-Mongol elites ruling over the various other peoples of the steppe (to keep the story short). Outside of these regions you must remember that Turks are ultra-cosmopolitan in CK2, and it isn't uncommon to find a smattering of them across the map.
A possible solution would be to cut the map into 3 or 4 zones, allowing Turkish states to blob erasable cultures in their zone, but treat the Turks in other zones as erasable if they don't have national representation.
Whatever the final solution is, I think there'll be a need to treat Turkish as a special case.
Anyway a massive thank you to Avrolancaster for the maps, they really helped keep the discussion understandable.
I think Paradox's Converter updated? Yesterday Carolingian Ideas had placeholder text, and mods were converting to version 1.8, but now the ideas have descriptions, and saves are converting to 1.9.
edit:
Wait, the 2.3 Patch says it did that... Did the game only just update for me?
This is still a thing, right? It hasn't been abandoned? I know there's a lot of work to do and stuff, but I've been keeping a game on hold from conversion for a month or so now, and I'd hate to see this die out...
This is still a thing, right? It hasn't been abandoned? I know there's a lot of work to do and stuff, but I've been keeping a game on hold from conversion for a month or so now, and I'd hate to see this die out...
Keytium posted in this thread about a week ago, and since he's a member of the team you can take that as objective evidence that the mod team is still interested and active.
Yep I'm still here and trying to get a good release version put together. I assure you that the update is delayed not dead. It has of course been very delayed and for that I am very sorry. I've not been as talkative in the thread this week because to be honest this isn't a particularly good time for input, I need to get the stuff that has been decided on done and then we can go back to our regularly scheduled bickering, I particularly look forward to discussing the Latin Empire because that I think is going to be a interesting thing to try and convert properly.
Yep I'm still here and trying to get a good release version put together. I assure you that the update is delayed not dead. It has of course been very delayed and for that I am very sorry. I've not been as talkative in the thread this week because to be honest this isn't a particularly good time for input, I need to get the stuff that has been decided on done and then we can go back to our regularly scheduled bickering, I particularly look forward to discussing the Latin Empire because that I think is going to be a interesting thing to try and convert properly.
So I think I've gotten the new improved culture split done. Now I need to make new names for the countries of the following whimsical cultures; Nordländisch, Franzosen, Reisend, Francese, Iberico, Carpaz, Africano, Vagante, Baltiin, Ungar, Khristed, Jalut, Insulaire, Ibérique, Allemand, Italien, Outremer and Voyageur. If you speak French, Italian or German now is your chance to make sure your language isn't butchered by my ineptitude. Keep in mind that countries that exist in CK2 or EU4 aren't viable. So as much as Jerusalem makes sense as the primary nation of Outremer it is I'm afraid not possible.
So I think I've gotten the new improved culture split done. Now I need to make new names for the countries of the following whimsical cultures; Nordländisch, Franzosen, Reisend, Francese, Iberico, Carpaz, Africano, Vagante, Baltiin, Ungar, Khristed, Jalut, Insulaire, Ibérique, Allemand, Italien, Outremer and Voyageur. If you speak French, Italian or German now is your chance to make sure your language isn't butchered by my ineptitude. Keep in mind that countries that exist in CK2 or EU4 aren't viable. So as much as Jerusalem makes sense as the primary nation of Outremer it is I'm afraid not possible.
Here is what I'd do (it's the first thoughts that come to mind so feel free to make them better)
Insulaire : I'd go with Albion. Ancient name from the Ancient Era which was used to describe UK during the Revolution ( "la perfide Albion !" ). The flag proposed one page earlier with the cross of St-George with fleur-de-lys seem good enough
Ibérique : Keep it simple => Ibérie (and I think there was a tag and a flag for this one in OOT)
Allemand : Allemagne or Germanie (the latter having quite an antic/medieval feeling compared to the first which is more modern)
Outremer : that's the tricky one ; since Jerusalem can't be used we need a name that fits the entire area, and that's not easy so I'd go with either "Orient" or simply "Outremer" since it designates primarly the region ( a flag that would combinate Jerusalem and Latin Empire CoA could be awesome )
Italien : Italie would be the easiest but it maybe looks too much like Italy. No other idea for that region
Voyageur : it can designate way too many places to have a clear name. Since voyageur seems a bit like Nomade, I'd go with "La Horde" (the Horde). Would not work with Mali and Abyssinia but I don't really see another alternative
The Italian ones are good, except for "Carpaz", or "Carpazi". That refers to the mountain range, not to the wider area it's in. I would change that to "Pannonico", which means Pannonian. That doesn't cover the entire territory it's meant for either, but I think it's better.
Here is what I'd do (it's the first thoughts that come to mind so feel free to make them better)
Insulaire : I'd go with Albion. Ancient name from the Ancient Era which was used to describe UK during the Revolution ( "la perfide Albion !" ). The flag proposed one page earlier with the cross of St-George with fleur-de-lys seem good enough
Ibérique : Keep it simple => Ibérie (and I think there was a tag and a flag for this one in OOT)
Allemand : Allemagne or Germanie (the latter having quite an antic/medieval feeling compared to the first which is more modern)
Outremer : that's the tricky one ; since Jerusalem can't be used we need a name that fits the entire area, and that's not easy so I'd go with either "Orient" or simply "Outremer" since it designates primarly the region ( a flag that would combinate Jerusalem and Latin Empire CoA could be awesome )
Italien : Italie would be the easiest but it maybe looks too much like Italy. No other idea for that region
Voyageur : it can designate way too many places to have a clear name. Since voyageur seems a bit like Nomade, I'd go with "La Horde" (the Horde). Would not work with Mali and Abyssinia but I don't really see another alternative
