The CK2-EU4 Converter Improvement Project

[Cuthuthulu]

Scenario 1
will not happen without player intervention and even then it will take a looong time.
For the entire region to actually convert to judaism even more so.
I think that even if islam in the arabian peninsula were to vanish entirely in ck2, no action is needed in regards to indonesia, because there would still have been plenty of time for islam to spread.

The chances of it happening in 1066 or 867 is rather unlikely. Far less unlikely in if you start in 480 however.:happy:

 

[loup99]

The chances of it happening in 1066 or 867 is rather unlikely. Far less unlikely in if you start in 480 however.:happy:

Are you planning to make a compatch for Enlil's magnificent mod?

 

[Cuthuthulu]

Are you planning to make a compatch for Enlil's magnificent mod?

Why do you think I'm in the beta?

 

[loup99]

Why do you think I'm in the beta?

Ooh, now I see. If you want any help from me, just tell me and I will be more than willing to assist you.

 

[Khrada]

Hey all, I'm back with another request.
I have noticed that greek cultures do not have its own dynamic province. So when Byzantine owns the provinces like Izmit, either trough converted save, or through warfare in vanilla game, the name will not change. Is it appropriate for the project to tackle this issue?
Here is what I have made up for it, too bad it only changes the province name, not the capital's name. I mostly got those names from CK2, which I think the name should be retained if ownership never changed.

Spoiler

144 = "Epeiros"
149 = "Adrianopolis"
316 = "Nicea"
317 = "Prusa"
318 = "Smyrna"
319 = "Lykia"
322 = "Kotyaion"
323 = "Ikonion"
324 = "Laranda"
325 = "Timonion"
326 = "Ancyra"
354 = "Tripolitania"
363 = "Damietta"
378 = "Tripoli"
1846 = "Amasia"
1848 = "Baris"

Thanks, can't wait for the new version.

 

[AvroLancaster]

1. According to Wikipedia, the spread of Islam in Indonesia were attributed to Arab traders. The main spread of the religion were between the years of 1200–1600. In scenario 1., it does not make much sense for Indonesia to be Islamic, as the Arabs that would have traded with them would have been Jewish or at least not have held as much influence as they did.
Potential outcome: Indonesia would either be Jewish or have stayed as their folk religion (Hindu/Buddhist/Animist).

I think it should be a simple boolean of is Islam successful? If Yes Indonesia is Muslim, If No it is its native religion of Pagan/Dharmic.

Why? Two reasons.

Aside from Christianity, no other religion that succeeds in the peninsula is particularly prosyltising. Judaism, Zoroastrianism, the rare Gnostics like the Manicheans, rare "others" like the Yazidi and Druze are all either "you're born into it" religions or just not historically easily spread.

Islam has the concept of the Ummah and Christianity of Evangelism. They're your only two real spreaders.

However, (second reason) a Christian Arabia would almost certainly be one that has a different culture than the native Arabs, and would likely replace them. This would have unpredictable results on the Indonesian trade situation. It's possible that in this time period that Western Christianity could not make it to Indonesia.

Nestorians are a different matter I guess, but it'd be such a rare case that they'd become dominant, should it really get our attention?

Now, if you wanted to make things real complex you could do a "which is dominant?" clause for Sunni, Shia, Ibadi, Zikri, Hurufi or Nestorian in the Arabian Peninsula and make that the religion of Indonesia. If none are dominant, you default to Dharmic/Pagan.

2. If India were under the complete control of Islamic sultanates, it might have made sense for them to continue spreading their religion eastward. Imagine if an Islamic religion would in this case have pushed as far east as Indochina, or even into southern china? This could also be based on the relative strength of Islam in general.
Potential outcome: More Indochinese nations have Islam as their state religion, with a provincial religious setup not unlike that of 1444 vanilla India. Several Islamic provinces in China.

Sorry, China's just too static and centralised. It doesn't convert unless it wants to. I say we leave China alone.

3. The Chinese dynasties at one time promoted Manichaeism among their people. But as the power of Manichaen nations fell, the practice was abandoned and even persecuted. If there's a strong Manichean presence on the map, parts of China might be Manichean? If the Manichean presence is very strong, China might potentially turn Manichean?
Potential outcome: A heavier Manichean presence in the east.

Leave China alone! Leave it alone!

 

[zeress]

Hey all, I'm back with another request.
I have noticed that greek cultures do not have its own dynamic province. So when Byzantine owns the provinces like Izmit, either trough converted save, or through warfare in vanilla game, the name will not change. Is it appropriate for the project to tackle this issue?
Here is what I have made up for it, too bad it only changes the province name, not the capital's name. I mostly got those names from CK2, which I think the name should be retained if ownership never changed.

Spoiler

144 = "Epeiros"
149 = "Adrianopolis"
316 = "Nicea"
317 = "Prusa"
318 = "Smyrna"
319 = "Lykia"
322 = "Kotyaion"
323 = "Ikonion"
324 = "Laranda"
325 = "Timonion"
326 = "Ancyra"
354 = "Tripolitania"
363 = "Damietta"
378 = "Tripoli"
1846 = "Amasia"
1848 = "Baris"

Thanks, can't wait for the new version.

You can change the name of a capital via event in EU4 iirc. Whether or not that is within the scope of this though, I cannot answer

 

[Phibs]

Just another thought on the discussion about the converter changing religion outside of the area of CK2:

If you decide to go ahead and work on such a feature, please make it optional.

Because up to this point, the converter has done just what the name implies. Converting/translating existing CK2 data to EU4.

Touching stuff outside of that scope would at best be an exptrapolation of that data (I'd call it a dubious what-if-speculation, but that's just me).

 

[keytium]

So, the parts of the world not covered by CK2 will look exactly as in the normal 1444 start. While modifying countries and borders would be hard to do right (as borders would have to change after the game is loaded), modifying religions, both province and state, would be relatively easy via event.

Let's picture a few hypothetical scenarios, and their impact on the world;

1. A world where the Arabian Peninsula is entirely Jewish....
1. According to Wikipedia, the spread of Islam in Indonesia were attributed to Arab traders. The main spread of the religion were between the years of 1200–1600. In scenario 1., it does not make much sense for Indonesia to be Islamic, as the Arabs that would have traded with them would have been Jewish or at least not have held as much influence as they did.
Potential outcome: Indonesia would either be Jewish or have stayed as their folk religion (Hindu/Buddhist/Animist).

I agree that there is a problem here. If Islam is weak it shouldn't spread beyond the borders of the map on conversion. I think that the most sensible decision here however is not to try and spread the dominant religion of Arabia, but instead turn the far eastern muslin nations animist if there is too small a Islamic presence. Islam in Indonesia is an odd quirk of history rather than something that is certain to be replicated by any religion in the right place.

Another interesting question that Avrolancaster raised though, how do we decide which Islam is in Indonesia?

2. A world where India is completely Islamic.
2. If India were under the complete control of Islamic sultanates, it might have made sense for them to continue spreading their religion eastward. Imagine if an Islamic religion would in this case have pushed as far east as Indochina, or even into southern china? This could also be based on the relative strength of Islam in general.
Potential outcome: More Indochinese nations have Islam as their state religion, with a provincial religious setup not unlike that of 1444 vanilla India. Several Islamic provinces in China.

Ok let’s take a look at the history of South-East-Asia at the end of the ck2 era. The Khmer Empire and the Sukhothai/latter Ayutthaya where centralized highly religiously focused states that are almost certain to have never converted under any circumstances short of full on invasion. An invasion obviously didn’t happen because lets face it you can’t tell your empire to invade outside the map in ck2 and it’s better to assume that means that you didn’t invade beyond the map then to say that you did and just didn’t notice. So invasion spreading religion is out. Religion being spread to china by sea traders is out because it’s a long way to china and as I’ve already explained Khmer and Thailand are unlikely to convert and act as stepping stones. How about trade routes spreading Islam over land? The land between china and where our map ends in Bengal was a bunch of small states sparsely populated and in the eyes of its neighbours on either the east and west mostly worthless (I’m so sorry anyone from Myanmar). What trade was going between china and India would have been going through Tibet to the north instead. Tibet is one of the most staunchly Buddhist countries in history that was in this time frame exerting religious pressure outwards. Another country that seems unlikely to convert without military intervention. It seems to me that there is very little chance of any religion making the jump from India to china in that time period, regardless of how well it spreads.

3. A world where Manichaeism holds a major presence.
3. The Chinese dynasties at one time promoted Manichaeism among their people. But as the power of Manichaen nations fell, the practice was abandoned and even persecuted. If there's a strong Manichean presence on the map, parts of China might be Manichean? If the Manichean presence is very strong, China might potentially turn Manichean?
Potential outcome: A heavier Manichean presence in the east.

Remember, these are all just food for thought. I'd like to hear some feedback on the idea in general. Don't focus too much on the individual examples I provided, but feel free to suggest your own.

No idea. I know very little about Manichean history so others would have to comment on that.
There is one other scenario that you didn’t bring up that could have repercussion further east. A united Mongolia. If the horde had stayed united in the west that should surely mean it would be united in the east as well right?

I don't really feel it's that way, at least not in 867:
They're neighbours with the other cultures in their group (Polish and Bohemian) and they're Slavic pagans. But it's no big deal, it's easy to edit post-conversion depending on the circumstances.

Not in 867 no, but already by 1066 they are pretty germanised. Also the way that the game tends to go without player meddling is that the German states expand and the Norse-Russian states expand and the other Slavs get squished. I still think that making the Pomeranians German is the best fit.

Just another thought on the discussion about the converter touching non-CK2-stuff:

If you decide to go ahead, please make it optional.

Because up to this point, the converter has done just what the name implies. Converting/translating existing CK2 data to EU4.

Touching stuff outside of that scope would at best be an exptrapolation of that data (I'd call it a dubious what-if-speculation, but that's just me).

OK this is going to sound mean, but.. No. If we change something it’s likely to be changed in all versions. Up keeping multiple versions and guiding people to which version they want and so on and so forth just makes everything harder for everyone. We’d need multiple depositories or pop ups in eu4 which we’ve tried so hard to avoid. There is no good way that it can be optional. I mean if the other two think we can do it, then maybe, but as far as I’m concerned optional is an emphatic NO.

That said I do think that we should only move beyond the map bounds in extreme circumstances and for the vast majority of games nothing should change. For the most part you should never actually see any change in the outside world. We’re not trying to do a full overhaul or unwrite the history of Asia.

Are you planning to make a compatch for Enlil's magnificent mod?

Ooh, now I see. If you want any help from me, just tell me and I will be more than willing to assist you.

WHY DO THERE HAVE TO BE SO MANY CULTURES!!!!! *runs away to go sob hopelessly in the corner*

 

[Phibs]

OK this is going to sound mean, but.. No.

Not at all, clarity is a good thing.
Since it seems very hard to do optional stuff, I agree with you. Not worth it.

That said I do think that we should only move beyond the map bounds in extreme circumstances and for the vast majority of games nothing should change. For the most part you should never actually see any change in the outside world. We’re not trying to do a full overhaul or unwrite the history of Asia.

If it's kept to a minimum and to highly unlikely scenarios I'd be ok with it. If catholic world conquest and heavy county conversion was achieved by the player in CK2, then yeah by all means change SEAsia some, no problem

 

[huyderman]

If you start to apply changes outside the CK2 map, you should probably also look at Africa. If Mali don't turn Muslim, or you have a strong Miaphysite Abyssinian Empire, you should probably have an africa that was much less green.

 

[Cuthuthulu]

No idea. I know very little about Manichean history so others would have to comment on that.
There is one other scenario that you didn’t bring up that could have repercussion further east. A united Mongolia. If the horde had stayed united in the west that should surely mean it would be united in the east as well right?

The Converter already does this. If you start on the 1220 bookmark and convert you get a large unified mongol empire.

That said I do think that we should only move beyond the map bounds in extreme circumstances and for the vast majority of games nothing should change. For the most part you should never actually see any change in the outside world. We’re not trying to do a full overhaul or unwrite the history of Asia.

Agreed. If there are any changes to the outside map they will have to be subtle and sensible.

WHY DO THERE HAVE TO BE SO MANY CULTURES!!!!! *runs away to go sob hopelessly in the corner*

This was my exact same reaction.

 

[Ithvan]

If you start to apply changes outside the CK2 map, you should probably also look at Africa. If Mali don't turn Muslim, or you have a strong Miaphysite Abyssinian Empire, you should probably have an africa that was much less green.

Mali maybe, but everything around Ethiopia was already muslim before the start of CKII.

 

[AvroLancaster]

So, in summary, the only two areas we think need ripple effects are West Africa and Indonesia?

 

[Labrynian Rebel]

That sounds about right, and we should just have them have their local religions since it's hard to alt history religion spreading. Especially since many of them weren't really into the whole "let's travel and convert people" idea.

I never once thought you meant that you had been insulted. I was just arguing with you about that point in a constructive way.

The way I see it, you provided a lump of iron (your idea for decisions) and beat it with your hammer to refine it a bit. I then beat the lump, refining it a bit more, and now others will beat it. Eventually if we all keep beating the same lump and refining it we'll end up with a pretty refined and interesting final product. It's a collaborative process.



Arguing on the internet is what we do best

My apologies *bows*

 

[dragoon9105]

So, in summary, the only two areas we think need ripple effects are West Africa and Indonesia?

I'm still holding out for a Vinland appearing in the new world (In Greenland Eastern Canada) at some point determined with a "Vikings Successful?" Tag.

 

[Cuthuthulu]

I'm still holding out for a Vinland appearing in the new world (In Greenland Eastern Canada) at some point determined with a "Vikings Successful?" Tag.

I think that may be going too far. However I've toyed with the idea of making a Vinland Sub-mod for sometime now. No promises however.

 

[Phibs]

I'm still holding out for a Vinland appearing in the new world (In Greenland Eastern Canada) at some point determined with a "Vikings Successful?" Tag.

I knew someone would ask for pathfinder scenario
This is exactly what I feared would happen. *symbolically washes hands*

 

[Kljunas]

I think someone should start by making a "weak Islam" set of history files that makes Southeast Asia Buddhist/Pagan/Hindu. Then the player could copy-paste it into their converted game if they think it's appropriate (or it can be a mod that you enable before conversion, both work).

I just feel that you can't really judge whether Islam could have spread to Indonesia by simply applying an algorithm to the 1444 situation.

 

[Phibs]

I just feel that you can't really judge whether Islam could have spread to Indonesia by simply applying an algorithm to the 1444 situation.

My thoughts exactly.

[...] Huge changes in the last years of CK2 would probably not have influenced the rotw in EUIV start...
And afaik the converter does not take into account the timespan in which stuff happened.

I mean if India was dharmic for most of Ck2's timespan and player persia goes nuts and swallows it whole that should not make SEAsia Muslim...