The Churchill quote in the loading screen about democracy should be removed

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Masakaivuri

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Hi!

The quote is "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

There is no evidence that Churchill ever said that and seeing it triggers the f out of me.
 
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Herr B.

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Well, at first I tended to disagree, but according to wikiquote this quote is indeed debunked (in other words, it is proven that he not said it).

Maybe just write "attributed to Winston Churchill" or something along those lines.
 
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Secret Master

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Funny, perhaps that should be added to the game.

Maybe it's just me, but seeing a "fake" quote amongst quotes that I suppose are real just doesn't feel right.

Eh, I've seen so many misattributed quotations in all types of media that I'm pretty inured to it at this point. I really just assume most quotations from historical figures are just plain incorrect, translated poorly, or taken so out of context as to be meaningless.

An example:

The game quotes Zhukov about ignoring German minefields when advancing. It's one of those things that promotes the narrative that hordes of Russians used simple human waves to defeat the more technologically advanced and smarter Germans and that Soviet generals were idiots.

But the context of the quotation changes everything. Zhukov's statement about ignoring minefields during advances should be put in context with how Soviet forces dealt with German artillery when advancing. Because German artillery was fairly damaging throughout most of the war, Soviet commanders realized that their units were taking more damage from artillery than minefields. Slowing an advance to deal with mines just resulted in high casualties than if they tried to move through the minefield. It's a strategically competent decision that has nothing to do with human wave attacks or "hordes of Slavs" attacking.

So, even if he said it in that exact way, lack of context changes the meaning of the quotation.
 
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Corpse Fool

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That one's clearly not meant to be taken seriously.
Are any of them? I've said some things. People have said I've said some things. People have said that I've said things I haven't actually said. I'd be the first to admit that I don't have anywhere near the renown as some of the figures that the loading tips are (mis)drawn from... but a common factor between us is that we are people. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'm not going to automatically assume anything that anyone says, even if that person has been correct about things in the past, is also wholly correct. I'm going to mull over every bit of it on its own merit.
seeing it triggers the f out of me
Would you like to talk about it?
 
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Masakaivuri

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Eh, I've seen so many misattributed quotations in all types of media that I'm pretty inured to it at this point. I really just assume most quotations from historical figures are just plain incorrect, translated poorly, or taken so out of context as to be meaningless.

An example:

The game quotes Zhukov about ignoring German minefields when advancing. It's one of those things that promotes the narrative that hordes of Russians used simple human waves to defeat the more technologically advanced and smarter Germans and that Soviet generals were idiots.

But the context of the quotation changes everything. Zhukov's statement about ignoring minefields during advances should be put in context with how Soviet forces dealt with German artillery when advancing. Because German artillery was fairly damaging throughout most of the war, Soviet commanders realized that their units were taking more damage from artillery than minefields. Slowing an advance to deal with mines just resulted in high casualties than if they tried to move through the minefield. It's a strategically competent decision that has nothing to do with human wave attacks or "hordes of Slavs" attacking.

So, even if he said it in that exact way, lack of context changes the meaning of the quotation.
You take the quotes with a grain of salt, which is good, but I don't think everyone does this. I think the way most of the quotes are presented implies that they are meant to be taken at face value. And I think a historical simulation game of this kind should aim to be more accurate than some random media. It's probably not an impossible task for Paradox to check their quotes and remove them or add context if necessary.
 
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Masakaivuri

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Are any of them? I've said some things. People have said I've said some things. People have said that I've said things I haven't actually said. I'd be the first to admit that I don't have anywhere near the renown as some of the figures that the loading tips are (mis)drawn from... but a common factor between us is that we are people. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'm not going to automatically assume anything that anyone says, even if that person has been correct about things in the past, is also wholly correct. I'm going to mull over every bit of it on its own merit.

Would you like to talk about it?
I was being hyperbolic, I'm really just mildly annoyed whenever I see that quote.
 
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cotne22

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I read the Wikiquote article and it basically says that all of Churchil's loading screen quotes are misattributed:
If you're going through hell, keep going.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm
It says that other famous quotes are also misattributed
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists
 
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Harin

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You take the quotes with a grain of salt, which is good, but I don't think everyone does this. I think the way most of the quotes are presented implies that they are meant to be taken at face value. And I think a historical simulation game of this kind should aim to be more accurate than some random media. It's probably not an impossible task for Paradox to check their quotes and remove them or add context if necessary.
You are probably correct, but if PDX spends time to verify quotes/unqoutes before fixing <fill-in-the-blank> a lot of people are going to be upset. Just saying, because I don't think China could produce enough pacifiers to quiet the wailing we would hear. I would probably need two. :)
 
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Dryhad

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I read the Wikiquote article and it basically says that all of Churchil's loading screen quotes are misattributed:
If you're going through hell, keep going.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm
It says that other famous quotes are also misattributed
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists
As a point of principle I refuse to believe Winston Churchill ever said anything unless it's recorded in Hansard. However, I really don't care about popularly misattributed quotations being included on the loading screen. The decision to include most of them seems to be more how they sound than accuracy at any rate and nobody should be relying on a game's loading screen for accurate references.
 
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