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The-Doc

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Ahh those moustache twirling Frenchmen and their diabolical manipulation of world events! Good thing the innocent Germans keep them in line, from time to time.

@Palatinus Germanicus , start this topic and let's see where this train of thought goes!

The really mad thing is that a lot of people believe this unironically because of some drivel that Gobbels come up with back in the 40s...

I'm sure you're aware but notions of Anglo-Saxon continuity, the vast reach and innate qualities of the "Teutonic" race etc. etc. were quite fashionable and widespread at the turn of the 20th century. The Nazi variant was (like many of their zanier aspects) just carrying all the crank theories to their logical conclusion.

I don't bring this up as a point of pedantry, but just to illustrate that what we find strangest and most reprehensible in Nazi ideology was not an isolated event but had far more respected and popular precedents.
 
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Easy Max

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Well, we're all entitled to out own points of view. For example, "who started WWII"? Same can be said of the 1870 Frano-Prussian DoW. In each case, (all 3 cases, including 1914), I think you'll find that technically it was NOT Germany starting war w/ France... but vice versa.

But in modern times, people have it so firmly impressed on their minds that "Germany just loves to DoW and invade France", that if you even suggest the contrary, people automatically disagree w/ you. But no worries, I expected nothing less.

1870: France says, "Oh hell no you don't!" -starts war w/ Germany and promptly gets spanked. Loses the precious (historically German) Elsass & Lothringen area, gets overly sore about it and plots revenge for decades. Works tirelessly to setup diplomatic situation to turn the tables on Germany diplomatically. With decline of Bismarck & rise of Willy II, they achieve it.

1914: The moment France has been waiting for. Finally another chance to tell Germany, "Oh hell no you don't!"... but this time they won't make the mistake of going in alone.
1919: Versailles Treaty, France really gets the opportunity to express their true feelings for Germany. Germany is understandably outraged.

1939: German people have been wanting a national revival, and are seeking to at least reconquer lost German lands, and unite their people/culture. France stands ready to stop them, but a sensible Brit named Chamberlain tells them to stand down. Unfortunately the German people got more than they bargained for by voting in radicals, and Hitler is a pure warmonger. 6 months after Munich, Chamberlain loses all political capital, and is forced (by political powers that are not entire British *cough*) to make the unfortunate, ruinous guarantees. Germany insists on re-taking Danzig, and YET AGAIN France jumps at the chance (not gonna be denied this time!) to say, "Oh, hell no... you DON'T!"

Why can't people just call it like it is? -France has been willing, for many generations (couple centuries, at least) to totally ruin Europe -or whatever it takes- to prevent Germany from eclipsing them. Stupid cultural separation that led to the Germanic peoples outside the HRE to become 'French' in the first place. If they'd all been smart, they would've stayed unified, and dominated the world together... as one. But no, there was too much pride... on both sides of the Rhine. And France was always unwilling to allow their (disowned) brother in the east ever become powerful, as they were. The Germans (east of Rhine, as opposed to the former GERMANS west of it) always tolerated France being a powerful, growing nation. But alas, the 'French' (Germans who tried to become Latins), refused to reciprocate that courtesy. And so now... look at what it's come to. I hope they're happy with themselves.

You wanted truth (OP), that's it. But it's not the Churchillian point of view, so by all means disagree. I've got better things to do than sit around in some Anglo-dominated C-Jerk about how 'evil Germany is'.

Btw, I'm part French, part British, mostly Germanic... but all 'Murican. -And I seriously try to be as objective as I can be. And the constant bias against Germany is annoying. I don't even like participating discussions about the era, because the prevailing bias is so thick, it's like talking to brainwash victims.


A few thouights:

1 - The logic of placing all the blame on the French here is tenuous (at best). In EUIV terms, it's like blaming a cobelligerant for joining because they're allied to whom you attack. In 1914, Austria Hungry issued a list of demands to Serbia with the specific intent to make them so unbearable that they would decline and AH would have its justification for war. Serbia was under the sphere of influence of Russia (Pan slavism). Russia also had an alliance with France. So when Russia entered the war on Serbia's side, so did France. Germany obviously knew this and had planned to attack through Belgium.

A small aside - of course France had done its damnedest to isolate Germany in a geopolitical sense. They had (as you astutely noticed) been absolutely demolished in a conflict with Prussia in 1870 (who upon victory here, takes up the mantle of a unified Germany and becomes a far, far more economically and militarily powerful nation). However, this is hardly some damning or underhanded act of villany. It was realpolitik, and France correctly identified that Germany was its biggest continental competition.

2 - World War II falls along similar lines. Germany attacks Poland after demanding the free city of Danzig after a string of territorial demands were met by the so called "sensible brit" that largely reassembled Central Europe under German hegemony. Keep in mind a lot of this was done in considerable bad faith (Munich conference didnt include Czechoslovakia, the anschluss was something of a coup by the Austrian Nazi party). France, having agreed with Britain to defend Poland after failing to defend Czechoslovakia, declares war.

I'm sure you knew all of that, but it's disingenuous to suggest that France or Britain were aggressors simply because they declared war rather than Germany. They had made their diplomatic relationships known (If you attack poland, we will attack you) - and Germany attacked Poland. I'm not sure if the Russia-France alliance in WWI was technically a secret alliance or not, but it seems evident that Germany assumed France was going to enter the conflict, and had prepared accordingly. (They didnt anticipate the UK entering... but that's still their fault for attacking Belgium).
 

Fishman786

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6 months after Munich, Chamberlain loses all political capital, and is forced (by political powers that are not entire British *cough*) to make the unfortunate, ruinous guarantees.
Is this meant to mean the French, is it the dastardly Anglo-Venetian Conspiracy, or is it more of a triple parenthesis thing?
 

Antediluvian Monster

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I'm not sure if the Russia-France alliance in WWI was technically a secret alliance or not, but it seems evident that Germany assumed France was going to enter the conflict, and had prepared accordingly.

IIRC Germany did not even have a seperate plan to war with one or the other, their up to date mobilization plans (of carefully crafted interlocking timetables) supposed war with both.
 

The-Doc

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I'm joking, and I'll probably continue to joke, but I would like to see you set out your ideas. Clearly you've decided to stick to this line of thought despite, I'm sure, a considerable amount of pushback - which makes me curious. Myself I've increasingly leaned towards the German War Guilt/Sonderweg line of thinking. It's interesting to see someone take an opposite tack.

And yes, in my humble opinion, as someone predominantly descended from German-Americans I can confirm that the best of Germany went to America! :p

We got Schurz and the rest, they can keep the pickelhaube.
 
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Easy Max

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OK, let me ask you this, then; do you know & understand French people, and their personality tendencies? Specifically, are you familiar w/ the fact that they hold grudges like no one else you've ever seen? And I'm not necessarily talking about modern French... I'm talking the ones from the period in question (I'm straining to be polite). The further back you go, the more this was the case. Are you intimately knowledgeable about these things? If you WERE, then this entire 'train of thought' as A-BOL (yeah, you get the innuendo -- it's fully intended) so mockingly/rudely called it, is not so far- fetched.

...

-That is going to be the natural backlash. "Oh, he's pro-German. He's just propagating the German Imperialist, anti-French POV". No, I actually have no personal bias. No real love for Germany, at all. It's a flawed people, flawed culture (and you have to be on the outside to see it -- they can't), flawed history. No way in hell I'm getting into their boat. I hate the whole relationship... the whole dynamic. At the end of the day, history is just going to record them as 'all these people couldn't get along'. 'The smart ones left, and went across the ocean'. ...And thank God.

I want to point out that making a pretty gigantic generalization suggesting the French as a people are prone holding a grudge doesnt comport with your assertion that you're totally unbiased. You're coming across biased.

Addressing your first point - Revanchism is a thing that arises out of the Franco-Prussian war. Of course France was eager to position itself to reclaim Alsace-Lorraine. That's doesnt make France a warmonger, and it doesnt make the French people more likely to hold a grudge.
 

keynes2.0

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So when Russia entered the war on Serbia's side, so did France.

Well aaaaaaaaactually, France joined when Germany declared war on them.


Specifically, are you familiar w/ the fact that they hold grudges like no one else you've ever seen?

You have obviously never met my family.

Take the 2005 USGP for example. At the height of Bush hate (even here) and strain between USA & France. French 'entities' managed to engineer (or at least allow) the events to transpire the way they did. Michelin = French. FIA = French. Renault = French. I could write an essay on how French 'entities' (whoever they may be - but I can point to a few) enabled history to unfold as it did. But that's so OT, I'll spare you.

I just keep going over this paragraph again and again...
 
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thedarkendstar

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Im hearing someone talk about the french like they were the borg collective and there one goal is to screw the Germans dont get me wrong the french did want to screw the germans often times but the man makes its seem like its the entire purpose of France.
 

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Im hearing someone talk about the french like they were the borg collective and there one goal is to screw the Germans dont get me wrong the french did want to screw the germans often times but the man makes its seem like its the entire purpose of France.
The French are definitely more Anglophobic than anti-Teuton.
 

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France wanted revenge for 1870-71. And they'd been working long & hard to get it.

This is simply not true: by the turn of the century Alsace-Lorraine had pretty much faded as an issue in French foreign policy (look at the very restrained French response to the Saverne Affair). What drove hostility between France and Germany was Germany's belligerent diplomacy and bullheaded interventions in the French protectorate of Morocco. The idea that France was scheming for 45 years to get back at Germany is ludicrous.
 
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thedarkendstar

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Oh I see, you're 14/88ths German-American. Good day.
Pls, don't think we're all like him.

Also, someone here said Alsace Lorraine seized to be an issue entirely if that's true would a political shift have allowed for a possible German-French Alliance.
 

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Pls, don't think we're all like him.

Damn Germans! They ruined Germany!

Also, someone here said Alsace Lorraine seized to be an issue entirely if that's true would a political shift have allowed for a possible German-French Alliance.

But what would they have allied against? I suppose Russia might have gotten uppity and started Crimean War 2.0 but I doubt they would have been up to that without an ally among the ranks of Britain/German/France/US so France and Germany could just as easily prevent that by just being neutral. Austria or the Ottomans might have messed up Germany's plans in the middle east but that's the sort of situation where a deft touch is much more useful then an ally with more hard power.

The platonic ideal of a security arrangement for both France and Germany is something like the Lisbon Treaty (but without the botched currency system) and that's not so much an alliance as an expression of a status quo; nobody wants war anymore and everybody wants to trade. If France and Germany are getting along, there really isn't a need for alliances across Europe. Italy and Austria might bash heads but everyone else wouldn't care excessively because their own security wouldn't be threatened, just commercial interests. The only thing that could upset this balance would be if Russia industrialized very extensively and became very militaristic and if that happened France and Germany would have ample time to see it coming and adjust their plans.

Edit: I suppose an alliance of Austria and Russia would have been dangerous to Germany, so there would be need to take precautions against that.
 
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thedarkendstar

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Damn Germans! They ruined Germany!



But what would they have allied against? I suppose Russia might have gotten uppity and started Crimean War 2.0 but I doubt they would have been up to that without an ally among the ranks of Britain/German/France/US so France and Germany could just as easily prevent that by just being neutral. Austria or the Ottomans might have messed up Germany's plans in the middle east but that's the sort of situation where a deft touch is much more useful then an ally with more hard power.

The platonic ideal of a security arrangement for both France and Germany is something like the Lisbon Treaty (but without the botched currency system) and that's not so much an alliance as an expression of a status quo; nobody wants war anymore and everybody wants to trade. If France and Germany are getting along, there really isn't a need for alliances across Europe. Italy and Austria might bash heads but everyone else wouldn't care excessively because their own security wouldn't be threatened, just commercial interests. The only thing that could upset this balance would be if Russia industrialized very extensively and became very militaristic and if that happened France and Germany would have ample time to see it coming and adjust their plans.

Edit: I suppose an alliance of Austria and Russia would have been dangerous to Germany, so there would be need to take precautions against that.
You coming up with a full alt history there :p
 

The-Doc

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This is simply not true: by the turn of the century Alsace-Lorraine had pretty much faded as an issue in French foreign policy (look at the very restrained French response to the Saverne Affair). What drove hostility between France and Germany was Germany's belligerent diplomacy and bullheaded interventions in the French protectorate of Morocco. The idea that France was scheming for 45 years to get back at Germany is ludicrous.

That is ridiculous! They'd been scheming at least since Waterloo. Or since Ryswick? How far does this go?
 
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