The case for physic/engineer focused research labs/jobs

[TheDarkMaster]

Why is this forcing you to drop Intelligent? That doesn't make any sense. You just... keep using Society research and do repeatables? How is it a waste? It seems like a complete OCD thing.

The only downside I can see to it is if consumer goods or population is tight. As in, you don't have enough of one to make more researchers, but really want more physics or engineering research. You can't replace existing researcher jobs with ones that are more efficient for you.

 

[PirateJack]

I'm in favour of buildings with physics/engineering focus more than anything else. The society gain is a non-issue for me, but having a bit more control over the direction my empire focuses its research would be good. Even if it's just a few buildings/upgrades that give +15/25% to one of the three research types, that'd be fine by me.

As it is I can easily focus my research on society but I have very little say beyond species traits in focusing on the other two.

 

[icon41gimp]

It's probably a balance thing. Society tech in general seems to be pretty weak now, so they've just included some freebie tech on some of the jobs.

If you allowed people to focus on Engineering tech it would almost always be optimal to do so, those techs are just too important most of the time. In that case it reduces the possible universe of decisions because everyone is forced to do the same thing. I would be against this unless the compromise in doing so is extremely harsh penalties in other areas.

 

[Kendov]

We either need the dedicated advanced research buildings like before or separate buildings which focus on certain research, for example a mod from when stellaris still used tiles added buildings that produced 6 research (E/B/P each separate buildings), experimental weapons facility for engineering, quantum computer lab for physics. having no control over how much of which we produce besides leaving out research boni is really like sand in the cogs.my hive mind is already at all repeatable techs, but still has no particle lance weapons? wtf?

 

[Mike6979]

I am seeing the same problem as the OP, in my most current game I am 35/40/25% Phys/Soc/Eng
I think I will add the engineering bonus trait on my races for a while.

 

[Tavior]

It's probably a balance thing. Society tech in general seems to be pretty weak now, so they've just included some freebie tech on some of the jobs.

If you allowed people to focus on Engineering tech it would almost always be optimal to do so, those techs are just too important most of the time. In that case it reduces the possible universe of decisions because everyone is forced to do the same thing. I would be against this unless the compromise in doing so is extremely harsh penalties in other areas.

I seriously doubt this line of thinking given that so many things are out of wack (energy/assemble speed and cost for assemble new population for machine gestalt and market exploit and other general issues). Did they ever really had any time to do a balance pass? Just a honest question.

It is far more likely that they only did a simple quick balance pass over the general overall economical at the most. Then kind of overlooked all other non-essential issue to the bottom of the priority list including but not limited to society slant due to time and manpower limits.

 

[AlanC9]

If you want to build a research focused population how would you do it?

Accept getting more society research?

 

[Zsrai]

And I’ve stated before. Ultimately, I think his justification for the desired change is strange.

But I agree with the option in principle. There was times in previous builds where I strived to specialize my research, either for RP reason, or to reach a goal tech more reliably.

This notion of more society reduced my gain is an absurd justification as far as I’m concerned. But the issue of being able to focus resources makes sense to me.

Fair enough. I'm still a little confused why they removed the different types of research from some of the military buildings, but I guess it's easier to just make them Soldier jobs instead of "Shield Technician" that gives the Planetary Shield extra Physics or whatever.

Accept getting more society research?

Exactly. I would build my research focused race/society the same as I always have. You just get more Society research than you did before, you're not being penalized.

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

Minor update: Apparently you can only pick either naturalist physic or engineer but not both. I think this is one of those undocumented changes.

As I think has been pointed out, it's always been this way. Unless you used the worm to double up, which I believe is also no longer possible.

What's the actual problem with also pushing society higher, though?

This should really be obvious... It's about having the opportunity to specialize.

In the previous system, you could upgrade a building to get +1 energy, +1 food, +1 minerals, +1 physics, +1 society, or +1 engineering. If you wanted to get +1 in all 3 science tracks, that cost 3 upgrades. If you wanted to get +3 engineering, that cost 3 upgrades too.

Right now, upgrading a lab gives +3 science jobs. There is no option to get +3 physicists or +3 engineers that do better in physics/engineering. By removing the option of specializing, you are now forced to pay for that society output, even if you don't want it. That is something you could, previously, avoid. You could trade potential society research for the other 2.

In short, it's not the fact that you get society research that's the problem. It's the fact that there's no way, and no option, to sacrifice it for increases in the other 2 (like there used to be). Again, that should really be obvious, if you're not intentionally ignoring it.

I think the problem is that always bundling all research together makes the fields feel more bland and indistinct.

This as well. Basically, your relative speed in the 3 fields is no longer a distinguishing factor of different empires. It's just decided by your space deposits and how many culture buildings you build..

To be fair, I always chose engineering, because considering space deposits and society buildings and the relative lack of physics technologies it was unequivocally the best choice. And maybe that's why they removed the choice. But they should explain that, at least.

You just get more Society research than you did before, you're not being penalized.

See above. Yah, you are. It's just not called a penalty; a penalty and lack of a bonus are the same thing, with different names. You can no longer sacrifice society to gain engineering = you are forced to give up engineering for society.

 

[Zsrai]

See above. Yah, you are. It's just not called a penalty; a penalty and lack of a bonus are the same thing, with different names. You can no longer sacrifice society to gain engineering = you are forced to give up engineering for society.

That's not a penalty though. You can't sacrifice ANY research to gain another type, you just gain extra society research. There isn't a negative to this other than people not liking it being an uneven number apparently.

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

That's not a penalty though. You can't sacrifice ANY research to gain another type, you just gain extra society research. There isn't a negative to this other than people not liking it being an uneven number apparently.

So, prior to 2.2:
- You could sacrifice society research to gain more engineering (or physics) with the same resources.

After 2.2:
- You can't do that; if you want more engineering, you can't sacrifice your society to get it, you just need to spend more.

You're not just gaining extra society research. You are gaining extra society research because you're not gaining even more engineering research.

From an economics #s viewpoint, prior to 2.2:
- you could build a second mine/farm/power plant/lab to get +100% minerals/food/energy/research output
- you could upgrade a mine/farm/power plant 3 times to get +50% of the base output each time
- you could upgrade a lab 3 times to get +33% of the total base output each time, BUT +100% of the output of the specific research type you chose

After 2.2:
- you can upgrade any building to get +150% of the jobs, and therefore +150% of the output


So, before 2.2, upgrade gave you +150% minerals/food/energy, and only +100% science, but +300% science of the one you wanted and +0% of the other 2. After 2.2, they give you +150% of everything. So yes, you are paying for that extra society output. That's basic economics. Nothing is free. You can look at it as "before, I was paying in society research to get engineering, and I can't anymore" or "now, I'm paying engineering research I used to get to get more society" but either way, you're saying the same thing.

Now, that's not to say it's a bad change. It does make selecting your science focus impossible, and therefore removed that choice, contributing to blandness, but there may be a very good balance reason for it. Or maybe there's not, and they just didn't want to program a 3-way upgrade path and 3 new types of jobs. But saying it's just free research is ignoring how the game works (and used to work) and how economy works.

 

[Zsrai]

You're not just gaining extra society research. You are gaining extra society research because you're not gaining even more engineering research.

No, you're not. You're just gaining more society research. They haven't taken away engineering research; they've taken away the option to specialize any research. Getting more base (or close enough, with unity buildings and so on) society research isn't causing a penalty by reducing your engineering and physics research. You're confusing two entirely different things.

 

[hsuzy1987]

I wonder if these specialised research buildings should (a) come a bit later in the tech tree or (b) give a little less research per housing/consumer goods

 

[Tavior]

Accept getting more society research?

I gave an example and you kind of dodged my question if you are going to respond to me. I already have several different build but they all comes with downside much more so in 2.2 than 2.1.

Also I would be fine going with intelligent if I had more discrete control of my actual raw research yields. Since it is clear that Stellaris team is not going to change it anytime due to dozens of bugs/issues that are more important than this topic. So I am adapting to the new system just as much as everybody else is adapting to 2.2 changes.

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

No, you're not. You're just gaining more society research. They haven't taken away engineering research; they've taken away the option to specialize any research. Getting more base (or close enough, with unity buildings and so on) society research isn't causing a penalty by reducing your engineering and physics research. You're confusing two entirely different things.

If you were going to use that option you had, to specialise into engineering research, they have indeed taken engineering research from you. And given you society research.

If you were in the middle of a game, and 2.2 didn't change anything except turn all your engineering labs into "labs level iv" that gave 2 of everything, your engineering research would go down, yes? Would you say "they just took away the option" when somebody could load up a game and show you their engineering research dropped?

That's what just happened. Now, they made other changes too (enough that you can't actually convert your old savegames) and through the total rebalance maybe this makes perfect sense. I mean, there's completely new resources, and research costs consumer goods now. A direct comparison/conversion isn't possible. But taking away that option is equivalent to taking away engineering research from anyone who was using or would have used that option, just as much as it's giving them more society and physics research.

But, this isn't the "explain economics 101" forum. If you were saying "it's not changed anything at all, it's just a completely new system" that would be one thing. Saying "you get more society" and ignoring the entire concept of opportunity costs, that by bundling all 3 research types together they have effectively increased the cost of engineering, thus decreasing how much you can get, thus decreasing how much anybody who specialized before has, is just nonsense.

 

[Astax]

I hate the new research.. If you gonna do it like that you might aswell toss all the techs into one pot and let us research as many as we want with bonuses and penalties that scale. Liek teching only one tech would double the speed of techign 3, and techign 4 would mean -33% to all of em.

 

[AlanC9]

I gave an example and you kind of dodged my question if you are going to respond to me. I already have several different build but they all comes with downside much more so in 2.2 than 2.1.

Also I would be fine going with intelligent if I had more discrete control of my actual raw research yields. Since it is clear that Stellaris team is not going to change it anytime due to dozens of bugs/issues that are more important than this topic. So I am adapting to the new system just as much as everybody else is adapting to 2.2 changes.

I didn't actually see the downside of intelligent. My takeaway was that you were trying to avoid the slant, which I don't think is worth doing.

As for specializing the other way, which is what Ur-Quan Lord's talking about, I didn't find it to be all that useful in the older versions either, so I didn't miss it this time.

 

[PanzerMan7]

I think we just need random sources of engineering. Maybe some from ministries of production?

 

[Riftwalker]

Now my issue with dealing with this issue from a policy is that usually you are locked into a choice for each 10 years and would only focus on either physic or engineer but hurt the opposite field all while affecting society the least.

Which is why I rather have specialized labs or research jobs so if you need 150 physic research then you can specialize into it without slowing down your engineer field and vice versa.

ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

make other buildings have other research types from their jobs. like soldier produces engineering or something. etc.

it makes sense for various profession to have a bit of gain from general know-how in the field.

 

[nikkythegreat]

Yes I've encountered the same problem.
Soc seems to be too inflated compared to the other two branches.

Like in my current game, im playing as a Synthetically ascended fanatic materialist empire. The year is 2362 and my Eng is 1927, Soc is 2651 and Phy is 2118.

Most of my games have always been that Soc is 50% more than Eng.