The case for physic/engineer focused research labs/jobs

[Athmet]

Minor update: Apparently you can only pick either naturalist physic or engineer but not both. I think this is one of those undocumented changes.

I thought it was like that before no ?

On the topic, I agree that it is frustrating not being able to focus resources on a particular branches.

Like someone suggested, getting Phys/Eng bonus tied to some buildings like Society is would be nice and make sense.

 

[Tavior]

I thought it was like that before no ?

On the topic, I agree that it is frustrating not being able to focus resources on a particular branches.

Like someone suggested, getting Phys/Eng bonus tied to some buildings like Society is would be nice and make sense.

Well I never ever had any reason to try for combination of naturalist so I might never have noticed it before.

The sad part is that adding two naturalist (15% each) is 30% boost split between two fields. While Intelligent is 10% across 3 fields which adds up to 30%. They both cost 2 trait points.

You can also combine intelligent and one of the naturalist together. So I don't get blocking two naturalist together? Oh well, since there are so many essential engineer tech I might just stick with naturalist engineer only instead of intelligent. This does give me a free trait point to use for something else.

 

[Delthor]

I agree that it's annoying to always have an extra 30% society research over the others. Space deposits also affect things, and I seem to always end up with way more physics and society than engineering, despite almost always playing as a natural engineer.

However, I think the solution is to just remove the society research from those other jobs and compensate with something else. Either give them more of their main yield (unity, trade value, amenities, etc.) or reduce their upkeep cost.

I actually really like the balanced labs. I don't even mind space skewing things slightly early game with space research (by mid or end game, space research is negligible most of the time). But having a society of engineering specialists output more society research overall just feels off. The only way you should have skewed research in the long run is through traits.

 

[brn4meplz]

Is it just that it annoys you having different numbers in those fields?

What’s the ultimate issue?

For me, research is research. In the past I specialized Engineering to advance through to megastructures faster. Or society to terraform quicker.

As far as I know you could never combine natural X traits in race creation. They used to have empire edicts which were a continual upkeep that specialized research fields.

A policy setting for this would be nice. And you’ll just have to bite the bullet that it’s locked in for 10 years

I think more buildings complicated the issue needlessly. Like suggested, either remove society research from other jobs. Or add research to other jobs.

Personally I’m for removing society from non research jobs. It’s not like Alloy foundries or Resource generator jobs give physics or engineering.

In summary. Policy setting for research emphasis. And remove society from non research jobs

Random thought - additional ‘states’ for observation stations.
-“Weapons test site” +10 engineering Research (+appropriate ethics shift/events)
-“Experimental Energy site” +10 Physics research(+ethics shift/events)
Additionally could overwrite traits to Natural engineers/physicists

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Actually, why do we even have three separate research resources at this point at all? They could all be combined into one universal value that is applied to all three techs. The UI essentially combines them already, it wouldn't be much of a jump to unify them. You're still researching three things at once, with different specialists working on them, but you no longer need to worry about the question of producing more of one than another.

 

[PirateJack]

I'd be happy to see additional buildings that let you specialise your area of research more. I think attaching research to things like Alloy Factories would make an already important building a bit overpowered, though. As it is the Society buildings largely pair it with Unity because Unity by itself is less immediately useful than straight up research buffs.

 

[Kinkness]

Can someone explain to me why having too much science, or excess science is a bad thing? I don't play min/max

 

[krios41]

Tavior my boy
you often say things i absolutly disagree with
but this ain't one them

 

[Tavior]

Can someone explain to me why having too much science, or excess science is a bad thing? I don't play min/max

The issue is not having different number but being able to push them higher.

IE if I want more unity I build unity generators. If I want more food I build farm. Etc...

There is nothing that you can do to push physic and engineer higher without also pushing society beyond those two naturalist trait and one civic for machine empire gestalt (OTA updates) and unlocking % research modifiers.

 

[Kinkness]

The issue is not having different number but being able to push them higher.

IE if I want more unity I build unity generators. If I want more food I build farm. Etc...

There is nothing that you can do to push physic and engineer higher without also pushing society beyond those two naturalist trait and one civic for machine empire gestalt (OTA updates) and unlocking % research modifiers.

Thanks for explaining

 

[sarudak]

Hmmmm... What if instead of research jobs producing research directly they provided some kind of multiplier to research output?

All the research points would be produced either by stations or pops working in the field directly. So empires that have a lot of factories might get better at engineering, while societies with a lot of culture jobs would get better at society. Not sure what should boost physics. This would have the interesting effect where the direction of your research strength would be determined by what you do most of while the magnitude of your research progress would be determined by how much you invest into researchers.

Right now the three research fields are kinda dull to be honest. I constantly forget what is in each field because they feel the same except for the icon. It would be more interesting if you could develop in different fields at radically different rates depending on your choices.

 

[AlanC9]

The issue is not having different number but being able to push them higher.

IE if I want more unity I build unity generators. If I want more food I build farm. Etc...

There is nothing that you can do to push physic and engineer higher without also pushing society beyond those two naturalist trait and one civic for machine empire gestalt (OTA updates) and unlocking % research modifiers.

What's the actual problem with also pushing society higher, though?

 

[sarudak]

I think the problem is that always bundling all research together makes the fields feel more bland and indistinct.

 

[khearn]

How about if they had some technologies that increased your research in a particular field by 20% or so. So people could choose which field(s) they wanted to increase. Wouldn't that solve the problem?

They could make up some names like, oh, Nanomechanics, Supersolid Materials, and Superfluid Materials for the engineering ones, and Quantum Theory, Applied Quantum Physics, and
Space-Time Theory for physics.

Heck, you could even add some for society research, with names like Biodiversity Studies, Xenobiology, and Secrets of Life. But that might be going too far.

 

[Fjolsvid]

Can someone explain to me why having too much science, or excess science is a bad thing? I don't play min/max

It's not too much science. It's the inability to focus one of the branches. Current set up heavily favours social branch, but i myself heavily prefer engineering as it has the most of techs that i like and need - stations tech, robots, mega-engineering, ship engines and so on.

There has always been an inbalance, but earlier it was in favour of Physics, due to all the percentage bonuses it received (Dead Wraith gives plus 5% modifier and +10% for pops from Void clouds). Due to this, energy weapons and shields had a slight bonus compared to kinetics and especially missiles.

 

[sarudak]

How about if they had some technologies that increased your research in a particular field by 20% or so. So people could choose which field(s) they wanted to increase. Wouldn't that solve the problem?

They could make up some names like, oh, Nanomechanics, Supersolid Materials, and Superfluid Materials for the engineering ones, and Quantum Theory, Applied Quantum Physics, and
Space-Time Theory for physics.

Heck, you could even add some for society research, with names like Biodiversity Studies, Xenobiology, and Secrets of Life. But that might be going too far.

Those decisions are not really about focusing or not focusing on a particular field. They are about getting value from a field now versus more value later. Now if there were techs in one field that boosted research in a different field that could be more interesting but not the most interesting way to present those kinds of decisions IMO.

 

[Tavior]

What's the actual problem with also pushing society higher, though?

If I have 500 physic and 1,000 society and 500 engineering.

Building 5 tier 3 labs will yield 160 equally across all 3 fields (5 labs * 8 research jobs * 4 base research yield assuming no modifier boost as that can skew the result if I bring in other jobs that yield society).

Increasing society by 160 will yield only a modest 16% boost in speed which devalue the more society research points you have.

Compared to 32% boost in speed for both physic and engineering. Having a huge slant in society actually make me want less of it because of diminishing return after a certain threshold.

160/1000 = 16%

Doing a 10,000 research cost at 1000 will take 10 months. 1160 will only save you a month or two at the most rounded up.

160/500 = 32%

Doing a 10,000 research cost at 500 will take 20 months. But at 660 it will save you 4 months or 5 months rounded up.

This just means that the more society research points you have; the less valuable next point will be in terms of saving you time on research at some certain threshold.

This is why I want to be able to shift my research jobs focus because society is the least useful number to push out of all 3 fields due to having so many secondary sources plus the research job itself.

 

[brn4meplz]

Well... yes there is a greater effect on efficiency gain. But the fact is you’re still gaining more research regardless.

160/1 is a massive efficiency boost. But it doesn’t mean I want 1 research.

10 000 at 1 research takes me ten thousand months. But at 161 it’s only 62 months. That’s a massive change. But it’s still a crappy return

Ultimately I still don’t see why the argument of more is worse. Is a bad thing? Maybe I’m missing something here.

 

[Bki]

I was also annoyed by this unbalance at first, but then I realised that Society also tend to have most of the research projects.

Though I guess I'm still annoyed by it later once I have fully ascended...

 

[Tavior]

Well... yes there is a greater effect on efficiency gain. But the fact is you’re still gaining more research regardless.

160/1 is a massive efficiency boost. But it doesn’t mean I want 1 research.

10 000 at 1 research takes me ten thousand months. But at 161 it’s only 62 months. That’s a massive change. But it’s still a crappy return

Ultimately I still don’t see why the argument of more is worse. Is a bad thing? Maybe I’m missing something here.

You are still paying the same upkeep for each extra society points you have. Do you really want to pay XXX energy per month to save a month or two? However you do need growth/unity so you have to put up with bit of society slant from those utility which is fine with me.

Physic and Engineer is far more valuable as they give you bigger boost than society as a consequence I find myself rush those planet deposit and tweaking my trait to account for having too much society.

There is nothing bad about having lot lot of society. After all you might want to research focus admin cap boost tech to lower research penalty for physic and engineer fields if the difference between society and physic/engineering is big enough to do that.


I have been giving it bit of thought. I would be fine with keeping general labs at 4/4/4 as it is. Then introduce two labs that focus on physic/engineering with the same tier/number of job/upkeep. Instead of being split like 4/4/4 they would be either 12/0/0 or 0/0/12. Or something along those line.