The case for physic/engineer focused research labs/jobs

[Tavior]

Most of my early experience, I often end up with a research distribution that I don't want. IE 30% physic/40% society/30% engineer distribution because the only way to boost physic or engineer is to build more lab/research job and they also provide society points which is unavoidable. Which is also inflated by the amount of society research point you get from jobs whose goal isn't research but unity or population growth and other similar buildings.

Having lot of society sources actually inflate the value you get from society to the point where I am actually consider deliberately ignoring society space deposits and primitive monitor space stations.

Right now the only way to artificially, without involving random anomalies or random deposit, inflate physic and engineer research speed is to not take intelligent and go for naturalist physic/engineer instead. Some of the later biological traits such as erudite and uplifted trait from enigmatic cache are both uniform research booster. Machine gestalt are worse off since they only have logistic engine to work with which is yet again uniform 10% boost.

Minor edit: Apparently you can only pick one of either naturalist physic or engineer not both like you used to be able to which is not great...

This is also complicated by the fact that research penalty from going over admin cap is uniform across all 3 research field all while your sources are not uniformed. For example, having 300 physic and 450 society and 300 engineer with 30% research penalty means society is largely unaffected but physic and engineer is impacted the most.


I am trying to come up with a good way to fix this and anything I could think right now comes with severe drawback which has to do with limited number of build slot per planets and population job management.

First method would be to bring back specialized field research labs which would provide bonus toward a single field of research. But then you end up with a complicated building tree (regular tier 1 to 3, physic tier 1 to 3, society tier 1 to 3, and engineer tier 1 to 3).

Second method would be to break research jobs into 3 field (first row of job for physic, second row of job for society, third row of job for engineer). This way you can turn off society but would still be paying full upkeep and not utilized all of the jobs. Kind of like development an extra district, which has upkeep, with two job and no population to fill them up.

Edit 2: Short story my issue is not with having too much society research point but rather inability to push your raw physic/engineering research higher. You can find the math from a post I did later on. I am posting here as there were a few who missed this.


Thoughts?

 

[kabill]

I've not really noticed this as a problem. But you may have played more than me.

Out of your two options, I'd say (2) is the better solution:
- There's enough buildings already, without adding three new ones which are basically mirrors of each other
- More building choices means more places for the AI to make mistakes
- There's a cost to specialising your research, i.e. you're paying for job slots which aren't being used, meaning that focusing research into the "best " areas is not just the default strategy.

Personally, though, I'd suggest a simpler solution, like a policy slider which allows you to focus research into a specific field at a cost to the others (e.g. +35% to one for -20% to the other two) mirroring what we can already do with trade value. That way, there's no additional clutter or complexity for the AI to deal with, but still allows you to focus your research somewhat or make up for a deficit somewhere.

 

[Tavior]

I've not really noticed this as a problem. But you may have played more than me.

Out of your two options, I'd say (2) is the better solution:
- There's enough buildings already, without adding three new ones which are basically mirrors of each other
- More building choices means more places for the AI to make mistakes
- There's a cost to specialising your research, i.e. you're paying for job slots which aren't being used, meaning that focusing research into the "best " areas is not just the default strategy.

Personally, though, I'd suggest a simpler solution, like a policy slider which allows you to focus research into a specific field at a cost to the others (e.g. +35% to one for -20% to the other two) mirroring what we can already do with trade value. That way, there's no additional clutter or complexity for the AI to deal with, but still allows you to focus your research somewhat or make up for a deficit somewhere.

Now my issue with dealing with this issue from a policy is that usually you are locked into a choice for each 10 years and would only focus on either physic or engineer but hurt the opposite field all while affecting society the least.

Which is why I rather have specialized labs or research jobs so if you need 150 physic research then you can specialize into it without slowing down your engineer field and vice versa.

 

[Xeorm]

Didn't really see that happening with any of my playthroughs. I don't think you'd see it either unless you're spiritualist due to their priest jobs. The extra society research a more regular empire might have is more than balanced by the other two being more prevalent for stations.

 

[kabill]

That's fair. I guess it doesn't bother me enough that I'd want the added complexity of multiple buildings/jobs, so I don't mind a solution which affords less fine-tuning if it keeps things simple.

Back to your ideas, a couple of negatives about point (2):
- The scaling with building upgrades would need to be different, as currently a level 2 building gives x2.5 jobs but you couldn't do that with the jobs split three ways because you'd have half a job. Not catastrophic but it would affect balance somewhat.
- Similarly, research districts on habitats don't convert well, as they provide 3 jobs currently (which would be the equivalent of 4.5 jobs if you split them).
- And also, more generally, you need more pops for science overall which means more costs per research.

Having specialists dictated by buildings would therefore be better in terms of maintaining vanilla balance. I'm not sure if you're thinking of this as a suggestion or as a mod but that probably matters either way.

 

[Tavior]

Didn't really see that happening with any of my playthroughs. I don't think you'd see it either unless you're spiritualist due to their priest jobs. The extra society research a more regular empire might have is more than balanced by the other two being more prevalent for stations.

I saw this issue while being authority/fanatic materialist and intelligent biological population which meant I saw tier 4 research showing up long before I had tier 2 weapon/armor/engine unlocked etc... I had lot of society research imbalance points due to having an unity generator and gene clinic on each planets.

That's fair. I guess it doesn't bother me enough that I'd want the added complexity of multiple buildings/jobs, so I don't mind a solution which affords less fine-tuning if it keeps things simple.

Back to your ideas, a couple of negatives about point (2):
- The scaling with building upgrades would need to be different, as currently a level 2 building gives x2.5 jobs but you couldn't do that with the jobs split three ways because you'd have half a job. Not catastrophic but it would affect balance somewhat.
- Similarly, research districts on habitats don't convert well, as they provide 3 jobs currently (which would be the equivalent of 4.5 jobs if you split them).
- And also, more generally, you need more pops for science overall which means more costs per research.

Having specialists dictated by buildings would therefore be better in terms of maintaining vanilla balance. I'm not sure if you're thinking of this as a suggestion or as a mod but that probably matters either way.

Suggestion for baseline game since you have no way to boost your research otherwise. Especially double true since I only play ironman and nothing else and I feel it would be better on the general forum since I can't use subforum.

 

[Hibernus]

On the other hand, Natural Sociologists applying to so many jobs might make it better to just double down and push for massive society gains.

I usually preferred engineers as getting synths and mega-engineering provided larger yields, but maybe leaning in for cap increases is a better idea now that Starbase and by extension fleet cap are harder to come by.

 

[FlyingPhoenix]

Alternatively, perhaps some buildings should produce physics and engineering research?

 

[Retry]

Didn't really see that happening with any of my playthroughs. I don't think you'd see it either unless you're spiritualist due to their priest jobs. The extra society research a more regular empire might have is more than balanced by the other two being more prevalent for stations.

It's not even close, only two or three high-level research buildings easily net you much more research than you get by deposits, and the society research you get from gene clinics and culture workers (and a competent economy will at least have a lot of gene clinic jobs, as growth is life), society research ends up eclipsing Physics and Engineering research unless you really double down on scientists, in which case Society research is only solidly in the lead of the other two.

I'm not spiritualist, fanatical pacifist/egalitarian, if that's important.

 

[Siri]

I'm also not a big fan of the heavy society research slant, but rather than add specialised buildings I'd prefer if small amounts of research were added to other jobs. Maybe metallurgists could add 0.5 engineering research per job for instance, and then something else for physics.

 

[AlanC9]

This is also complicated by the fact that research penalty from going over admin cap is uniform across all 3 research field all while your sources are not uniformed. For example, having 300 physic and 450 society and 300 engineer with 30% research penalty means society is largely unaffected but physic and engineer is impacted the most.

30% is always 30%, isn't it?

I am trying to come up with a good way to fix this and anything I could think right now comes with severe drawback which has to do with limited number of build slot per planets and population job management.

What's the downside of getting society research too fast?

 

[Xeorm]

I saw this issue while being authority/fanatic materialist and intelligent biological population which meant I saw tier 4 research showing up long before I had tier 2 weapon/armor/engine unlocked etc... I had lot of society research imbalance points due to having an unity generator and gene clinic on each planets.

Suggestion for baseline game since you have no way to boost your research otherwise. Especially double true since I only play ironman and nothing else and I feel it would be better on the general forum since I can't use subforum.

It's not even close, only two or three high-level research buildings easily net you much more research than you get by deposits, and the society research you get from gene clinics and culture workers (and a competent economy will at least have a lot of gene clinic jobs, as growth is life), society research ends up eclipsing Physics and Engineering research unless you really double down on scientists, in which case Society research is only solidly in the lead of the other two.

I'm not spiritualist, fanatical pacifist/egalitarian, if that's important.

So far in my games I've seen a pretty hefty difference between physics and society research from stations. Fairly notable difference really. Where are you guys getting society research from gene clinics? Baseline they only offer amenities + population growth. The culture building is the only building with jobs that by default that provides society research by itself.

 

[happyscrub]

I think it might be intentional because stellaris has been slowing adding more society tech into buildings because they know society is the only tech tree with all the needed/interesting mechanics.

 

[Zsrai]

Alternatively, perhaps some buildings should produce physics and engineering research?

They used to, like the Planetary Shield Generator having +Physics and +Engineering under the old system, but then they removed the jobs and/or the bonuses from them. Except Society research.

Right now I have a Hive Mind (in the early game) that's at about a 1/4, 1/2, 1/4 P, S, E split. It's only going to get worse as I expand since there are a bunch of Society jobs that come standard on each Hive capital building, never mind the other buildings.

 

[happyscrub]

They used to, like the Planetary Shield Generator having +Physics and +Engineering under the old system, but then they removed the jobs and/or the bonuses from them. Except Society research.

Right now I have a Hive Mind (in the early game) that's at about a 1/4, 1/2, 1/4 P, S, E split. It's only going to get worse as I expand since there are a bunch of Society jobs that come standard on each Hive capital building, never mind the other buildings.

Well hivemind always got bonuses to society even before 2.2.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

The building system in general feels like it's got a lot of holes at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lot of things get filled in over time that will balance things out some more as the devs get more chances to see how/what players are doing. For example, a robot resource boosting building that also gives engineering research.

 

[FortunaDraken]

Hive Minds suffer from this a lot, as their unique building that they use for unity also produces society research, as you can get a ludicrous number of those jobs per planet because the capital building also provides the same job types that the building uses and increases how many of those jobs are available per upgrade. I have a late game capital where, with fully upgraded Hive Nexus and Synaptic Node, I've got 15 Synapse Drones earning 80 society along with unity. You can get that per planet if you can support the energy and food upkeep.

It's useful because Hive Minds generally want a lot of the society research, yes, but since they also tend to want to go wide, having no real way to make up the physics and engineering research outside of space deposits and the Black Hole Observatory starbase building can hurt with the admin cap. I'm earning 2.3k society research a month, but only 1.2k physics and 1k engineering, and I haven't even gone that hard on Synaptic Nodes due to their upkeep. I imagine the disparity could get much, much higher.

Having a way to boost the other types of research specifically would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Tavior]

Alternatively, perhaps some buildings should produce physics and engineering research?

I definitely can get behind this.

30% is always 30%, isn't it?

What's the downside of getting society research too fast?

30% admin cap research penalty is uniform but your sources of research point isn't. The downside is that I can't shift my focus toward physic or engineer like I was able to before.

There are maybe only two or three ways you can shift around focus and they are not enough to make up the lack of specializing research labs/jobs.

No downside of getting society research done faster but it definitely make you wish you could shift that focus somewhere else once you get most essential society ones done. All I am asking for is more opportunity to double down on engineer or physic if I need to. All those extra society research? They can stay as it is.

 

[Vladisi]

I'm also not a big fan of the heavy society research slant, but rather than add specialised buildings I'd prefer if small amounts of research were added to other jobs. Maybe metallurgists could add 0.5 engineering research per job for instance, and then something else for physics.

I'd say roboticists and their machine counterparts should produce engineering research. Would help with robomodding, as well.

 

[Tavior]

Minor update: Apparently you can only pick either naturalist physic or engineer but not both. I think this is one of those undocumented changes.