The case for expanding Albania and Epirus (and a suggestion on Greek Culture)

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Grand Historian

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So, I have to say I’m quite excited about the map changes that are coming with 1.16/Mare Nostrum. Ireland and Hungary are getting overhauled, Scandinavia, France and Scotland are being revised, the Kongo Basin and Madagascar are getting (more than) some attention, and overall it seems that the amount of areas on the map in need of attention are decreasing steadily and considerably.

But one area that I’m disappointed didn’t get any, especially considering the focus of the expansion, would be Albania and Epirus. When the Balkans got overhauled back in 1.8/1.12, this area was arguably the most overlooked, with Albania getting only a buff to development and otherwise remaining an OPM culture and sticking out aesthetically in comparison to many of the map changes. Epirus, on the other hand, still existed as a significant political entity in the southern half of the province by 1444 and has yet to be added to gamestart.
This is rather disappointing to me, as I feel that Albania and Epirus should be divided provincially, for multiple reasons. As for a visualization about how this could be done:

2016-03-03_00001.jpg


Lezhe (Albania) in the north, Vlore (Ottomans) in the south, Durazzo (Venice) on the coast and Aetolia (Epirus) from Epirus.

Now, the advantages of splitting Albania and the inclusion of Epirus can be summed up as thus:
  • Makes Albanian easier to accept. Now, splitting Albania does not have to mean that the province’s development has to be split, either, and I think it would be a good opportunity to buff it. This would also mean that Albanian, as a culture, would be larger than the likes of Gothic and have a chance to be accepted instead of just easily converted away and forgotten.
  • Shadow buff to Albania. While, barring player intervention, these changes will not affect the usual outcome of the region, it will make Albania be slightly more viable and last longer (like it did historically). By splitting off the Venetian and Ottoman parts of Albania, their cores on Lezhe can be removed, meaning they won’t start off with day one CBs. Likewise, as there would be more than province with Albanian, it would allow for an Albanian revolt to be more viable.
  • Better representation of Venetian Power. Venice was one of the most important nations during EU4’s timeframe and one of the most important powers in the Mediterranean, which managed to hold its own against the Ottomans and even gained ground against them in a few instances. However, currently they’re rather on the weak(er) side, and Durazzo would be a good way to better represent Venice’s strength, as it was arguably their most important outpost in the southern Adriatic.
  • Prettier Borders. Albania (and Epirus, for that matter) sticks out like a sore thumb in comparison to its surrounding provinces. While if you’re playing as the Ottomans it won’t make much of a difference since the whole Balkans will end up green, it will make a visible difference if you want to expand southwards as Serbia/Bosnia/Hungary or northwards as Byzantium/one of the Greek nations. Now, I imagine some will say that it will make the provinces harder to click on… and they’re right, but they’d be no more difficult to click on than others like Corfu, Ragusa and so forth (and if you’re playing EU4, you’re going to be zooming in and out a lot regardless).
  • Prettier and better Areas. I’ll touch on this later in the post.
  • More historical accuracy. Including Epirus at the start date would be another step in this direction, as it did exist as an independent nation in 1444 (and, I believe, is one of the only nations left that did exist in 1444 that’s not currently in game at start), but is only currently represented as a core because it only controlled the southern half of Epirus. The implications for Venice and Albania are also clear.
  • Interesting and challenging new starting positions. Both Epirus and Albania would offer this (Albania already does, but more Albanian provinces offers more options), along with the potential for new achievements.
  • More strategic options for the region. Albanian being bigger and lasting longer as a nation with an independent Epirus would indeed affect strategies for the nearby nations, be it the obvious Byzantium, one of the Balkan or Italian states, or a dark horse such as Athens, Ragusa or Aragon.
  • Would not alter the outcome of the area radically. While anything can happen with player intervention, the game would otherwise most likely go the course it’s designed to if left to the AI. And, being such minor changes, it wouldn’t add much, if any, lag.
Also, I’d like to take a few minutes to touch on the topic of culture. As a general consensus, it’s agreed that the Byzantine group is probably the loneliest out there (except Korean, which really should be merged with one of its neighbors), especially once 1.16 rolls around. While there was a pretty big debate a while back about whether or not Byzantine should be merged with another one, I don’t really want this thread to get turned into a proxy for that, as both sides had good points and I don’t think it would be relevant to the topic. Instead, I’d like to propose that the Greek culture get broken up a bit - which would make a union a bit more useful and the group a bit less lonely – if some new provinces get added. They could be;
  • Cypriot. Even if the others are shot down, I would appreciate this one being added in. After centuries of Latin rule (and, later, British rule), heavy interaction with Italian traders, and general isolation from the rest of Greece for so long, an independent Cypriot identity that mixed Greek with heavy Latin influences had emerged by 1444 and would only get stronger as time passed – enough that there is a Cypriot nation today. The ruling Franks considered themselves Cypriot, and the populace seemed to accommodate them on that, too; there was no major revolt against Lusignan rule and no widespread pro-Byzantine sentiment. However, to avoid having another OPM culture within the Byzantine Group, I would recommend Cyprus as a province get split; Nicosia in the north and Limassol in the south. Being as it already has a high base development (and as Cyprus usually doesn’t go anywhere for a while barring player intervention, it only increases even more), and the Ottomans, Mamluks, Genoese and Venetians all fought over the island for its strategic importance, I think it would be a logical split and inclusion.
  • Epirote. Yes; there actually was Epirote separatism throughout and even before EU4’s period. After Epirus became the Despotate, it clashed on multiple occasions with the restored Byzantine Empire until it was reannexed and made semi-autonomous. However, by that point, there were already many native Epirote nobles who supported an independent Epirus; Nikephoros II Orsini had managed to escape to Italy with the help of such nobles, and later returned as Byzantium was engulfed in another Civil War to rally the nobles and reestablish an independent Epirus. Likewise, as Epirus was a point of diffusion for so many different cultures – Serbian, Albanian, Greek and Italian – it also developed a more distinctive regional culture from the rest of Greece. Epirus would later go onto be a very troublesome region for the Ottomans, as the locals rose up against Ottoman rule on multiple occasions and the Ottomans themselves only exercised loose control over the region, and Epirotes would go on to be some of the most important members of the Greek independence movement. Provinces with this culture would be Epirus, Aetolia and Corfu.
  • Morean. If Epirote was distinctive for being something of a melting pot culture, Morean was distinctive for being the exact opposite; even as the rest of Greece slowly adapted to Ottoman rule, Greeks in Morea remained borderline Byzantine. Along with Epirus, Morea was the center of Anti-Ottoman sentiment in Greece, with the Ottomans never being able to quite bring the region completely under their rule, and it was there that the klephts (or some proto-form of them) first emerged soon after Ottoman rule was solidified over most of Greece. Provinces, obviously, would be Morea and Achaea.
And while not part of the original suggestion, I have seen Kotor being suggested in this thread as another possible province in the region (essentially making Zeta landlocked), and while I'm not as decided on it as the other suggestions, I do have to say it would also be another good way of further representing Venetian power in the region.

But I really just want it for this achievement:

Knights of the New Republic: As the Knights, be a Republic and own Kotor.

Now for areas; adding a few new provinces to the region would allow for better and cleaner areas, as the current ones are… a bit awkward. For sake of time, I’ll just list out how I think the areas can be altered for the better:
  • Getting rid of the awkward-looking and rather ahistorical ‘Northern Greece’ area. Instead, Epirus, Aetolia, Vlore and Corfu can be joined together to make an ‘Epirus’ area, while Thessaly, Macedon and Kastoria can be rearranged into a new ‘Macedonia’ area.
  • Skopje, instead, can be moved north into the ‘Serbia’ area, while Zeta (with Kotor) can be joined with Durazzo and Lezhe into an ‘Albania’ area.
  • The two parts of the Aegean, Eastern and Western, can simply be merged into a single ‘Aegean’ area, consisting of Rhodes, Chios, Naxos, Negroponte, Crete, and Cyprus (or Nicosia and Limassol). Biga, on the other hand, can be attached to the ‘Hüdavendigar’ area, as I don’t think it was attached to the Aegean under the Ottoman administration like it was underneath Byzantine.
  • Also, ‘Morea’ should be renamed to ‘Hellas’. Athens’ inclusion makes it a bit of a weird designation.
  • And while not really a part of this, the ‘Form Greece’ decision can be changed to include Aetolia instead of Epirus and Negroponte (it lists Naxos but, curiously, not Negroponte), as it’s a bit outdated.
Also, if Epirus and Morea will be getting cultures, I might as well put my ideas for Morean and Epirote NI sets here:

Epirote Ideas:
Traditions: +4 Tolerance of Heretics, -15% Mercenary Maintenance (as the Tocco were Catholic, Epirus would technically be another Crusader Kingdom, all of whom have +4 Heretic Tolerance in their Traditions)

Albanian and Serbian Tribes: -20% Mercenary Cost
Description: While the core Epirote state has been reunified, the many Serbian and Albanian tribes who once made petty kingdoms out of it remain. Instead of ostracizing them, we should employ these tribes to help bolster our forces.

Memory of Epirote Conquests: -10% Core Creation Cost
Description: Once, Epirus was the mightiest of the successor states. Thessalonica and Athens bowed to us, the Nicaeans and Latins feared us, and Greece accepted us as her master. While those days are centuries past, the dreams of such a rule again are not, and we actively pursue them.

Latin Knights:
+10% Cavalry Combat Ability
Description: The most elite of our army remains the cavalrymen armed and trained in the Western style. Some are native Greeks, others are Italian mercenaries, but all are effective at what they do.

Chronicle of the Tocco: +1 Yearly Prestige
Description: The Chronicle of the Tocco details our ascent to the Despotate of Epirus, our fair rule and our ties to the Empire, and our conquests of the surrounding lands. We should have it published in a simple form of Greek so all people can read and appreciate it.

Italian Advisors: -10% Military Technology Cost
Description: We have come to realize our military is woefully inadequate compared to our neighbors. And so we should leverage our ties with the Italian city states and try to reform our military with modern tactics and weaponry.

Metropolis of Knowledge: -10% Idea Cost
Description: Ioannina, known since Byzantine times as the Metropolis of Knowledge, is becoming a center of the burgeoning Greek Enlightenment, where more Western thought and ideas are beginning to enter our lexicon. As we have always been more keen in our connections with the West than the rest of Greece, we should embrace this trend.

Crossroads of the Adriatic: -15% Accepted Culture Threshold
Description: Epirus has always served as a point of cultural diffusion. In Ancient times, it was where Greek culture met the Illyrians to the north. In Roman times, it was where Roman culture entered Greece, and Greek Rome. Over the centuries, these lands have seen Normans, Franks, Saracens, Bulgarians, Serbs, Turks and Iberians. Even now, it remains a melting pot, where Greek, Slavic and Italian influences all intersect and converge, and we have always tried to patronize all sides.

Ambition: +10% Global Trade Power

Morean Ideas:
Traditions: +10% Land Morale, -10% Fort Maintenance

Refurbish the Hexamilion Wall:
+20% Fort Defense
Description: The Hexamilion Wall is located in a strategic position, stretching across the Isthmus of Corinth, but it has fallen into disrepair and is horribly outdated. We should rebuild it along more modern standards and take full advantage of its location!

Title of Despot:
-20% Time to Fabricate Claims
Description: The title of Despot was originally conferred on the ruler of Morea by the Emperor, designating him as heir apparent. Though the empire is gone, the importance of the title still stands. Let us use it to legitimize our claims as the rightful heirs to the empire.

Albanian Influx:
+15% Manpower Recovery Speed
Description: Our homelands have slowly become depopulated due to constant wars and Turkish raids. Let us invite Albanians to migrate into our lands and help rebuild our reserves.

Venetian Outposts:
+1 Diplomatic Reputation
Description: The Venetians already have established a strong presence across our peninsula, and if we make concessions to them in key ports, we can use their connections with the rest of Europe to find allies in our struggle.

Reconstruction of the Peninsula:
-10% Build Cost
Description: Continuous conflict across our peninsula has resulted in widespread destruction, and many fortresses, churches and monasteries lie in ruin, leaving it a shadow of what it once was. We should begin a program of reconstruction.


Maniot Recruitment:
+10% Infantry Combat Ability
Description: The Maniots are a fiercely independent people that live in southern Morea and are renowned for their martial prowess. They’ve prospered under our rule, and so they will gladly contribute to our army.


Continuation of Byzantine Monasticism:
+2% Missionary Strength
Description: Morea is home to many ancient monasteries that survived the carnage that engulfed the region. Housing many priceless frescos, and more importantly, devoted monks, we should sponsor them and experience a resurgence in our culture and faith.


Ambition:
-1% Yearly Army Tradition Decay

So, yes that’s my case for expanding Albania and Southern Greece, and thank you for reading it.
 
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DrumCorpsNut

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A lot of fantastic ideas! This would open up a lot of interesting gameplay options both for the Greek and Balkan states. I think it would also give some nice openings against the Ottomans for nations like Venice, Genoa, or Aragon.

As you said, Venice in particular was able to combat Ottoman dominance for quite a while, and some of these changes would give them more opportunities to do that.
 
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BarskiPatzow

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Well, you forgot that Zeta should be split into 2 provinces also, since Venice controled Kotor for most of the timeline,while other parts of Montenegro stayed independent for most of the timeline.
 
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CrabHelmet

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Well, you forgot that Zeta should be split into 2 provinces also, since Venice controled Kotor for most of the timeline,while other parts of Montenegro stayed independent for most of the timeline.

You have to draw the line somewhere, though. I mean, "Albania" at this point is really the League of Lezhe, which isn't a unified country but rather a coalition of around eight or nine different Albanian notables, some of whom later defected to the Ottomans. Splitting Albania and Lower Zeta into a province for every apparently independent ruler gets quite silly quite quickly in areas lacking in central authority like Albania.
 
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You have to draw the line somewhere, though. I mean, "Albania" at this point is really the League of Lezhe, which isn't a unified country but rather a coalition of around eight or nine different Albanian notables, some of whom later defected to the Ottomans. Splitting Albania and Lower Zeta into a province for every apparently independent ruler gets quite silly quite quickly in areas lacking in central authority like Albania.
To me it isn't silly at all, it would be a bit buff for Venice and it would give more detail to the region, and detail is not bad. Besides, it is not somethign that was there for a few years, both things I suggested were there for most of the EU 4 timeline.
 
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Grand Historian

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To me it isn't silly at all, it would be a bit buff for Venice and it would give more detail to the region, and detail is not bad. Besides, it is not somethign that was there for a few years, both things I suggested were there for most of the EU 4 timeline.

True. While I'm undecided on it, do you think you could draw a map or something similar about how a division could be done?
 

Grand Historian

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Also, what do all of you think about the possibility of a Cretan Culture? I've seen it done multiple times in mods, but I think it might be a bit superfluous for vanilla.
 

Sunspawn

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IMO, Greek is not large enough for 4-5 sub-cultures. I could see it split into 2-3 cultures, but no more than that, unless you want micro-cultures like Aquitanian and Gascon(the former is going to be gone as of 1.16).
 
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I agree with Sunspawn. I'm not even really that keen on the idea of Epirote or Cypriot culture, 2/3 province microcultures are just annoying. If you are that culture, you try to culture-shift out of it ASAP, and if you aren't that culture, you're never going to accept it so it just hands around being a frustration.
 
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I feel like Naxos was just not important enough to be a province/tag. Venetian Albania/Cattaro should definitely be its own province and Zeta should be landlocked. Albania proper could be one or two provinces, but I just don't know if Epirus deserves more than one. Morea could be one province or three.

What I'd really like to see though, is Cephalonia and the Toccos. That's represented in game by the 'Corfu' tag (CEP), the province of which should just be owned by Venice (it didn't have a tag until Napoleon).
 
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Grand Historian

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IMO, Greek is not large enough for 4-5 sub-cultures. I could see it split into 2-3 cultures, but no more than that, unless you want micro-cultures like Aquitanian and Gascon(the former is going to be gone as of 1.16).

Well, two out of three of the Byzantine cultures are already micro...

I agree with Sunspawn. I'm not even really that keen on the idea of Epirote or Cypriot culture, 2/3 province microcultures are just annoying. If you are that culture, you try to culture-shift out of it ASAP, and if you aren't that culture, you're never going to accept it so it just hands around being a frustration.

If you're playing as Byzantium or Venice, you probably won't have much of a problem accepting them. If you're playing as the Ottomans, you will. Which would be pretty accurate. But, then again, this is more symptomatic of the Cultural Acceptance system as it is instead of the cultures themselves (and once you blob to a certain point, you're probably only going to be accepting one to four cultures).

What I'd really like to see though, is Cephalonia and the Toccos. That's represented in game by the 'Corfu' tag (CEP), the province of which should just be owned by Venice (it didn't have a tag until Napoleon).

Epirus is the Toccos in 1444.
 
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Styria

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If we are adding provinces to the Greece area, why not add the Ionian Islands as a province? They served as Venetian outposts and fortresses during this time period, and remained in Venetian hands until the end of the Republic, as I recall. It could probably be connected to the new Epirius province by a strait, and could add another Greek culture along with Corfu, called Ionian. These islands did receive cultural influence from Venice, while still retaining their Greek heritage. But regardless, I just want to see the Ionian Islands added. They even were independent close to the end of the EU4 timeline, as the Septinsular Republic, with both the Ottomans and Great Britain guaranteeing them, as they were semi-important strategically. Perhaps even important enough to warrant a center of trade? It seems like Ragusa could use a few more.
Anyway, that's just my incoherent ramble. Bottom line is, I think the Ionian Islands might make an interesting addition to the region.
 
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While this could go in the next patch, I'm pretty sure they said that the current map changes outlined in the dev diaries (Africa, Ireland, etc) would be final for 1.16. Great idea tho!
 

Grand Historian

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If we are adding provinces to the Greece area, why not add the Ionian Islands as a province? They served as Venetian outposts and fortresses during this time period, and remained in Venetian hands until the end of the Republic, as I recall. It could probably be connected to the new Epirius province by a strait, and could add another Greek culture along with Corfu, called Ionian.

While it would definitely be good material for a mod, I think an Ionian Culture and other islands might be pushing it a bit for Vanilla (I also think Epirote can be extrapolated as that, so it would work out).

But I have found the idea of a Kotor province to be increasingly attractive, so I added in a small update to the OP to accommodate that.

Perhaps even important enough to warrant a center of trade? It seems like Ragusa could use a few more.

True, Ragusa could use another CoT, though it should probably be Durazzo given it's immense strategic importance to the Venetians.

While this could go in the next patch, I'm pretty sure they said that the current map changes outlined in the dev diaries (Africa, Ireland, etc) would be final for 1.16. Great idea tho!

Thank you! Yes, unfortunately it does seem the map changes were final - they usually are once the release date is announced, which is why I waited until it was, and the latest dev diary pretty much confirmed it.

Were the cretans particularly distinct at this point?

As a regional culture. The differences between it and mainland Greek only increased throughout the era for any number of reasons, but it would probably end up being another OPM culture if it was added.
 
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I agree with Sunspawn. I'm not even really that keen on the idea of Epirote or Cypriot culture, 2/3 province microcultures are just annoying. If you are that culture, you try to culture-shift out of it ASAP, and if you aren't that culture, you're never going to accept it so it just hands around being a frustration.

The Moreans and Epirotes really seemed to lose their uniqueness once they all became part of a single country under the Roman Empire, and then stayed in that country for a very, very long time. Heavily centralized empires have a tendency to do that. Splitting up Greek further (now that Pontic is an independent culture, albeit rightfully so) would basically just leave it with coastal Macedonia and Thrace, despite a fairly unified concept of Byzantine-ness across all of Greece until the 20th century. The seeming independent cultures that are in these regions are not the cultures of the people- just like Athens, really. The rulers were Catalans and Italians, Catholics, and they absolutely did not think of themselves as Byzantine. However, the actual Athenians, the people living in Athens, saw themselves as Greek as anyone else in Byzantium, contrasted with the Latin rulers.

Likewise with Cyprus, I know more than a few Cypriots and all of them very heavily align themselves with mainland Greeks, tossing away any notions of individual ethnicity. In the end, Cyprus is about as Greek as Crete, if not moreso. Also, didn't the Cypriot kings (who were French) consider themselves lords of Jerusalem, rather than just Cyprus?

Were the cretans particularly distinct at this point?

They were not. The Cretans held a distinct identity as Minoans, who evolved into Eteocretans. The Eteocretans were basically extinct as a culture before Christianity took hold of the Roman Empire. They spoke Greek, they followed Orthodox Christianity, and they were thoroughly Byzantine. Even their archery tradition faded before the EU4 start date. Nowadays, a small amount of Cretans are trying to revive a sense of Minoan identity, but it's mostly restricted to a theme park.

This is sort of my issue: People try to make all these tiny cultures sprout up for no real reason, as they did not exist at the time. One can argue for the tiny differences between, say, Crete and Athens, but at that level, the game would overload with single-province cultures, and Byzantium would both become near useless due to having a state culture worth nothing, and almost necessary to hold anything more than a couple of provinces.

IMO, Greek is not large enough for 4-5 sub-cultures. I could see it split into 2-3 cultures, but no more than that, unless you want micro-cultures like Aquitanian and Gascon(the former is going to be gone as of 1.16).

Which, mind you, it already has. The Byzantine region (Greece + Anatolia) used to be entirely Greek where it wasn't Turkish. With the loss of Caucasian cultures, Greek has been split into Greek, Pontic, and Gothic, with Greek and Pontic being easily visible related, but distinct, ethno-cultural groups today, and the Goths being a very clearly different group with a long history that persisted throughout the entire game timeframe as the dominant culture in their piece of Crimea, albeit largely faded by the end. They might've lived as a distinct culture all the way to 1948, and if they didn't, then the existence of Theodoro still has a decent impact on the general area as a whole. While the Latin crusaders should have their own countries, not every country needs its own unique culture. The Crusaders will be fine using their historical Italian and Spanish cultures while the peasants can stay comfortably Greek, representing the fairly homogeneous population of Greece and the immediate Aegean area, with the Pontic people in Anatolia waiting to reclaim its interior, and the Ostrogoths taking risks to return to Germany.
 
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Roki_09

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Lets make the game more historical and remove Albania as there was no country named Albania until after WWI. There was only a revolt in northern part of Albania called League of Lesche and it wasnt even Albanian revolt, as beside Albanian feudal lords there were also Serbian feudal lords in that league.

and I dont see how adding 3 provinces with 3 development would change anything to be honest...
 
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