The Case for, Eventually, China

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Nykyus

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Where is this map from?
The interesting thing is that Tochars were Indoeuropeans and had European appearence, with dark to blond eyes and brown to blue eyes ... then they got sterminated if not wrong by Mongols and other tribes and disappeared from Asia.
This map of Russian geographers. Based on the works of Bichurin, who collected information about the ancient peoples who lived in China http://gumilevica.kulichki.net/chronosophy/atlasIIIBC.htm
Parthia and Bactria were not in 304 BC. They appeared in 250 BC.

atlasIIIBC.png
 

Nykyus

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Purely Chinese territories are even smaller in 700 BC. In fact, Qing and Chu consisted of barbarians.
Imagine, for example, the ambassador-blond from the kingdom of Qin, the Chinese will take him for his?

atlasVIIBC.png

hph01.png
 

Nykyus

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In a solid collection on YouTube there are no ancient peoples near China at all. Solid white spots.


Meanwhile, these barbarians have taught China a lot. For example, battle chariots. Or musical instruments: pipa.
What did the Turkish heroes listened to in the intervals between battles in Chang'an? Of course this music

 

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I'd really like to see a Warring States mod, and sketched out some ideas on it based on previews.
  • The start would be the Partition of JIn in 453 BCE
  • The dating follows the Gonghe Regency, for simplicity's sake.
  • Pops consist of four groups: Gentry, Merchantry, Peasantry, and Clans.
    • Gentry provide Research Income.
    • Merchantry (or maybe Citizenry) provide Commerce Income.
    • Peasantry provide Tax Income and Manpower, making them your most valuable pop as in Confucian thought.
    • Clans are basically like Tribesmen.
  • Religion is replaced by Philosophy. This includes Confucianism, Legalism, Wuism, and Heaven-worship, and also Totemism, Pastoralism, Nomadism, and Shamanism for the various non-Chinese groups.
Books on the period seems to be really rare outside of Asia, so I couldn't get far ahead. :(
 
Last edited:

icedt729

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But as it stands Ancient China was a behemoth comparable if not more so than Rome as far as im aware, and for the most part their neighbours militaries could simply not compete with Chinas.. IRL I think what actually held them back was their logistical capabilities to stage their army - But of course paradox usually doesn't capture such scope, and it would be hard to emulate this so as to nerf China from blobbing which will end up being the case if the devs aren't careful.
And this blobbing is exactly what will break the game if not handled correctly.

By the end of the game's timeframe, Rome and Han had about the same population (just under 60 million recorded in the Han census; estimates for Rome ranging mostly between 50-70 million). At the game's start, each of the Warring States are about comparable to Carthage or one of the Diadochi. All of them would be dwarfed by Maurya at the start. And Han expansion stopped once it hit harsh environments or natural boundaries, just like Roman expansion did.

If the early Maurya blob doesn't wreck the game, a mid-game China blob won't either. If Roman (or Seleucid, or Carthaginian) expansion works in a way that makes sense, so will Chinese expansion. China in this period should behave much like every other state or region on the map, which is the main reason why I'm arguing for its inclusion.

The interesting thing is that Tochars were Indoeuropeans and had European appearence, with dark to blond eyes and brown to blue eyes ... then they got sterminated if not wrong by Mongols and other tribes and disappeared from Asia.
The Tocharians weren't exterminated- they split into a number of different branches, one moving west into Bactria (eventually setting up the Kushan state), and another branch settling in the southern Tarim and the foothills of Tibet. Iranic groups have a long history in and around China- they definitely introduced horses and chariots to Shang China, and maybe also bronze- and even after older ones like the Jiang were assimilated more kept coming in from Sogdia and Iran.

I'd really like to see a Warring States mod, and sketched out some ideas on it based on previews.

Books on the period seems to be really rare outside of Asia, so I couldn't get far ahead. :(

I've been reading up on this for about four years and I haven't found a single good English source that is specifically about the Warring States. There's great books on "Early China" (generally Shang and Zhou- Warring States is the last part they cover), "Early Imperial China" (Qin and Han, with the tail end of the Warring States as introduction), and there are general histories (which usually focus on the last several dynasties and pass over pre-imperial China very quickly). Sinologists study it and recognize it as an important period, but nobody publishes books about it.
 

Prometheus_1

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By the end of the game's timeframe, Rome and Han had about the same population (just under 60 million recorded in the Han census; estimates for Rome ranging mostly between 50-70 million). At the game's start, each of the Warring States are about comparable to Carthage or one of the Diadochi. All of them would be dwarfed by Maurya at the start. And Han expansion stopped once it hit harsh environments or natural boundaries, just like Roman expansion did.

If the early Maurya blob doesn't wreck the game, a mid-game China blob won't either. If Roman (or Seleucid, or Carthaginian) expansion works in a way that makes sense, so will Chinese expansion. China in this period should behave much like every other state or region on the map, which is the main reason why I'm arguing for its inclusion.


The Tocharians weren't exterminated- they split into a number of different branches, one moving west into Bactria (eventually setting up the Kushan state), and another branch settling in the southern Tarim and the foothills of Tibet. Iranic groups have a long history in and around China- they definitely introduced horses and chariots to Shang China, and maybe also bronze- and even after older ones like the Jiang were assimilated more kept coming in from Sogdia and Iran.



I've been reading up on this for about four years and I haven't found a single good English source that is specifically about the Warring States. There's great books on "Early China" (generally Shang and Zhou- Warring States is the last part they cover), "Early Imperial China" (Qin and Han, with the tail end of the Warring States as introduction), and there are general histories (which usually focus on the last several dynasties and pass over pre-imperial China very quickly). Sinologists study it and recognize it as an important period, but nobody publishes books about it.
Yes I think I confused with the Tanguts , but still they were severely vessed by the Han for long time untill they were weakened enough to be conquered by all other invaders and so disappear from History.
 

mccarty.geoff

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I think a Chinese version of Imperator would better be centered on the Three Kingdoms legends rather than history. It is a very popular gaming theme in China. Western software companies should definitely market in and for Chinese interests a lot more. Could raise twice as much capital in a year with a reskinned game variant translated to Han.
 

Prometheus_1

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I think a Chinese version of Imperator would better be centered on the Three Kingdoms legends rather than history. It is a very popular gaming theme in China. Western software companies should definitely market in and for Chinese interests a lot more. Could raise twice as much capital in a year with a reskinned game variant translated to Han.
But not of interest in the rest of the world, I personally wouln't buy a PAradox game focused only on China.
If China has to be added , needs to be added in Imperator.
 

Brynjar

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Me neither but, China's gaming market is $33G. Imagine if a western company (beside Apple or Microsoft) could get 1% of that.
What does that number include? Mobile, console and PC? The first two isn't really very relevant for Imperator or similar games. Then there is the grand strategy genre, which probably only makes up a small portion of the PC part.

Besides that, making a game aimed at a single country is extremely risky, even more so if that country is known to ban products (including computer games) for political reasons and its consumers "blacklist" products if offended in any way.
 

mccarty.geoff

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Yeah it would be a pain. Probably have to open up a Chinese division and pay a lot up front for licensing. Mobile gaming is much larger there so PC titles are even less than the western market. The massive consumer base is the end reward though. Niggling DLCs and kickstarters are a joke compared to globalizing a digital product that weighs 3μg on a cobalt harddrive.
 

Provenance

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I've been reading up on this for about four years and I haven't found a single good English source that is specifically about the Warring States. There's great books on "Early China" (generally Shang and Zhou- Warring States is the last part they cover), "Early Imperial China" (Qin and Han, with the tail end of the Warring States as introduction), and there are general histories (which usually focus on the last several dynasties and pass over pre-imperial China very quickly). Sinologists study it and recognize it as an important period, but nobody publishes books about it.

The Records of the Grand Historian has an on-going English translation, but that still means that the basic source on the period is only partially available :mad:
 

bitmapmedivh

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If the early Maurya blob doesn't wreck the game, a mid-game China blob won't either. If Roman (or Seleucid, or Carthaginian) expansion works in a way that makes sense, so will Chinese expansion. China in this period should behave much like every other state or region on the map, which is the main reason why I'm arguing for its inclusion.
I think this can't really be stressed enough. It's far more likely that the giant Big Bad Maurya Blob is this game's Ming, rather than one of the Chinese kingdoms.

I suspect people on these forums are too set in their views, due to experiences from Ming in EU and the eternal discussions over wether or not to include China in CK2. Couple that with a lack of general historical knowledge about China and some good ol' fashioned exoticism ("China is such a unique and special place, it simply must have it's own game centered around it") and you have the current misconcieved arguments floating about.
 

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I think a Chinese version of Imperator would better be centered on the Three Kingdoms legends rather than history. It is a very popular gaming theme in China. Western software companies should definitely market in and for Chinese interests a lot more. Could raise twice as much capital in a year with a reskinned game variant translated to Han.

Creative Assembly is already on this with Total War: Three Kingdoms. And while they are getting some positive feedback from Chinese gamers thus far, as others have pointed out, China is not a good basket in which to put all your eggs. I think Imperator can do a great job of modelling China, and that's why a lot of us on this thread are for it: it's a noteworthy expansion of the formula into a time and location in history that would be fun to play.
 

Superdark33

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Id personally love a china in the game, all the flavor, all the additional butterfly effect of trade goods/nomadic tribes...

My poor computer wont though. All the rendering, the calculations.... i really do hope the game will one day be optimized enough to let even the weaker rigs handle it all.
 

John Rusher

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Not sure if it was told here, so here I go :
While we know much about ancient China, so it's fair that it would be included in map expansion, we also know that Japan as a country did not exist until early medieval times, and we have no record of Japanese before 1st century AD. Everything before the medieval times is basicaly legends about their rulers, and before 1st century AD, we have no records of it even existing.

So even if there is China added in some future expansion, it shouldn't include Japan... nor americas, because there was basicaly no contact between americas and the old world. Only thing we know about americas comes from Plato, when he speaks about Atlantis, and the fact he mentions that behind Atlantis there was supposedly another continent, or "land". Which implies some of the ancient people might had speculated about there being land somewhere in the west, in the ocean between china and europe. But it was not even common knowledge and only something they theorized(because ancient people weren't stupid, they realized that something like that might exist).
 

bitmapmedivh

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I will migrate my Celtic tribe north of China and create a horselord empire.

Mongallia.
If we actually get a China Map Expansion, this totally needs to be an achievement.