We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly. You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
This information about Waring States Chinese feudalism makes me thing that the period would probably work well as a CK2 mod as well. Certainly the engine would fit better during that period than the period the game normally covers. It's also interesting seeing how similar the organization structure was during this period compared to what would emerge in Europe a thousand years later.
A cursory search does not seem to turn up any such mods, which is a shame.
There was a Spring and Autumn period mod, but I don't think it's been updated for many a patch. But there are still a lot of challenges in putting Chinese feudalism through CK2 mechanics.
Isn't this in the game with Subject State Satrapies? LIke Parthia is ingame a Satrapy Subject state of Seleucid Empire. We didn't know how they work, or do we?
I don't think we know enough about the different types of satrapies and subject states to make that call yet. But it could be the case that mechanics they're already working on for the Seleucids and Parthians could be applied to the Chinese situation.
Yellow Color - Chinese States
Light green colors - tribes Di or Juns (Serica)
Purple color - Viets
Orange color - Tochars
Green color - Thai
Bueo, Joseon, Jin - Koreans
Brown color - Siyue - Austroasians
This information about Waring States Chinese feudalism makes me thing that the period would probably work well as a CK2 mod as well. Certainly the engine would fit better during that period than the period the game normally covers. It's also interesting seeing how similar the organization structure was during this period compared to what would emerge in Europe a thousand years later.
A cursory search does not seem to turn up any such mods, which is a shame.
At one point I had a CK2 mod set in China (found it on these forums - believe it was the Three Kingdoms era), and it was great, but struggled to represent the centralized state well, as well as all the other aspects of imperial strife. It was definitely serviceable, but grafted on to CK2 in a way that limited how immersive it could be. I tend to agree with the OP that I:R poses a much better alternative for a positive, interesting representation of China during this period.
There was a Spring and Autumn period mod, but I don't think it's been updated for many a patch. But there are still a lot of challenges in putting Chinese feudalism through CK2 mechanics.
The main problem I see is modeling the steady centralization of power, which the game really has a problem with doing anywhere. I do agree that it isn't really something you could fix and would remain a problem modding in the Warring States. A lot of IR's mechanics are surprisingly convenient for this project or just including it in the base game.
Xiongnu mixture of Caucasians and Mongolians.
Sers (Juns), Tokhars, Boma, Saka, Dinglings, Yuezhi - people of the Caucasians with blond hair.
Sers (Juns) is highlanders, Boma is forest people: They are nomadic; they prefer to settle among the mountains covered with coniferous forest, they plow horses; all their horses are piebald, whence the name of the country is Boma (piebald)".
Agrippei were not Iranian-speaking people who, according to Herodotus, lived "at the foot of stone mountains" and side by side with the "other Scythians" and the issedonians. Information that they are bald from birth, could appear as a result of misinterpretation of their custom to shave the heads. Herodotus writes that" they have flat noses and large chins", which indicates their belonging to the Mongoloid race. They "speak a wonderful language", obviously not of Iranian origin. Apparently, they belonged to the Ugric or Turkic language family.
Part Sers, Chidi, became the ancestors of many of the Uyghur tribes (Weishu), others became the ancestors of the Tangut.
Donghu are considered the ancestors of all Mongolian tribes.
I read Mark Edward Lewis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Edward_Lewis from Qin to Han: the great change of dynasties. The Chinese considered Qin barbarians.
They lived in the lands conquered from Di, so probably took a lot of barbaric customs.
Earlier, I read at the Russian Orientalist Gumilev. It seems the Chinese prisoners, they were buried alive. If I'm not mistaken
I read Mark Edward Lewis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Edward_Lewis from Qin to Han: the great change of dynasties. The Chinese considered Qin barbarians.
They lived in the lands conquered from Di, so probably took a lot of barbaric customs.
Special scorn was heaped on Qin and Chu for their intermingling with barbarians, but in reality all of the Seven Warring States had taken in large numbers of non-Chinese over the course of their expansion. Jin, which split into Han, Wei and Zhao in the 5th century BC, took in a large wave of Di and Rong peoples at the same time that Qin did. Qi's lands in the Shandong peninsula were also "barbarous" in the early Zhou period; Yan, in the northeast, naturally also had a substantial non-Hua population. Even the Zhou house themselves had originally been a marginal people from outside the Central Plains.
Basically, Qin and Chu were singled out for their perceived un-Chinese behavior rather than for their non-Chinese ancestry.
Earlier, I read at the Russian Orientalist Gumilev. It seems the Chinese prisoners, they were buried alive. If I'm not mistaken.
Under King Zhaoxiang, Qin buried enemy prisoners-of-war alive en masse after the battle of Changping against Zhao in 260 BC- supposedly 400,000 were killed in the aftermath of the battle. This was not a common practice, but an extreme measure taken by Qin forces to break the resistance of what was, by that time, their most powerful adversary.
The battle of Changping is also notable for the fact that the Qin commander allegedly mobilized the entire adult-male population of the nearest county to serve in the campaign- an example of how the Levy mechanic seen in the Persian military traditions could be applied to the Warring States.
Having seen the subject mechanics in the latest dev diary, it does look like Chinese fiefs could be modeled as subjects with a mix of attributes from feudatories (manpower gain and culture-group restriction) and satrapies (tax gain, military tradition and monarchy requirements). Flesh them out with a few flavor events and they should work pretty well.
That being said, time for the next installment:
Chinese Warfare from the Warring States to the Han
The general arc of Chinese military development is similar to what we see in Mycenean, Classical and Hellenistic Greece. The introduction of bronze and the chariot gave rise to a small warrior elite who had access to precious horses, chariots and bronze weaponry. From around the 6th century BC the spread of iron casting and improvements to weapons and armor then made the infantry an effective arm of the military, revolutionizing warfare. Later still, shortly before the beginning of I:R, true cavalry was adopted, although it did not completely displace the chariot until the very end of the game's timeframe. The whole period was marked by armies becoming bigger, better-organized, and more professionalized, in a race to build the most efficient war machine.
Weapons and Tactics
Heavy infantry of the Terracotta Army
The terracotta army buried with Qin Shihuang gives us an image of what a standing army of the Warring States would look like- distinct companies of heavy infantry, cavalry, archers, crossbowmen and chariots, led by a hierarchy of junior officers under the general at the top. Most are equipped with iron and leather lamellar armor, and the main melee weapons are long double-edged swords, spears of various lengths, and the distinctive Chinese polearm called the ge (usually translated as "halberd" or "dagger-axe"). These standing units, which were armed at state expense, given thorough training, and regularly replenished by fresh conscripts, provided the core of campaign armies which would be bolstered by short-term levies from the population at large (many of whom would have already served in the standing units for a number of years, and therefore already had some training or even combat experience). A year or more of formal training was common.
Military writings dating to the Warring States period show that generals of the time already had a keen understanding of the different capabilities of the troops under their command. Chariots seem to have been favored for frontal attacks against disorganized or wavering infantry, but only if the terrain was favorable; cavalry was regarded as less effective than chariots in head-on strikes but faster and able to move across rougher terrain. For the infantry, by far the largest arm of the armies but also the one with the most uneven quality, proper discipline and the careful selection of battlegrounds was stressed. Field fortifications, siege equipment borne on carts, and the importance of reconnaissance, espionage and proper supply also figure.
It's also worth noting that the Chinese crossbow was a key military technology that almost totally displaced recurve bows due to the tremendous draw strength they could make use of (the more powerful ones being drawn with the feet and both hands) and the relatively short training needed to produce a skilled marksman with it. The Chinese also used cast rather than wrought iron, which was brittle but could be produced very quickly and cheaply through repeated use of standardized molds. The Chinese experimented with forging cast iron or blending cast and wrought iron together, allowing them to make progressively higher-grade metal, until by Eastern Han times (shortly after the end of I:R) they found the techniques to consistently produce true steel. Metallurgy could be regarded as another technical advantage that Chinese armies had over their contemporaries elsewhere, alongside the crossbow.
Organization and Leadership
A classic Warring States sword, belonging to a King of Yue
As noted above, Warring States armies generally had both a core of conscript-soldiers serving terms full-time in standing units, and ad hoc units raised from the general populace as needed. This meant that the core source of manpower was the small landowner who provided his own arms, like in a Polybian legion or a Greek militia. Some states offered privileges and tax exemptions to those who could provide a full kit and perform physical feats in armor; Qin invented a whole hierarchy of ranks and perks that could only be attained by killing enemies in battle. The high tempo of warfare during the period meant that, in addition to those who had cycled through the standing army and received formal training there, a large swathe of the adult male population were combat veterans.
Leadership of the army increasingly shifted away from hereditary officials in most states and towards a class called the shi, usually rendered as "knights" or "gentlemen." This was a group made up of the unranked junior members of noble clans and of literate, upwardly-mobile commoners, and they filled the new, meritocratic military and administrative bureaucracies. They brought a more pragmatic and unchivalrous attitude towards warfare than the old chariot-riding elites of the early Zhou, since their status rested on knowledge and technical skill rather than on hereditary privilege.
The total population of the Warring States was in the tens of millions, and by the 3rd century BC army sizes in the hundreds of thousands are reported for major battles like Yique and Changping. Raising, training and supplying such large armies was a tremendous organizational challenge, and these challenges spurred on Warring States governments to maximize efficiency.
Western Han Developments
Western Han foot troops
With Liu Bang's victory over Xiang Yu but defeat at the hands of Modu Chanyu, the Han state had less and less need for an army effective at fighting other Chinese, and more and more need for one that could fight Xiongnu. In order to do this, they needed cavalry, especially horse archers. Chariots and massed infantry were too ineffective against nomadic armies for the logistical burden they created- so chariots were gradually phased out while the infantry took on a new role as defenders of border walls, frontier towns and military colonies while the enlarged ranks of the cavalry took charge of the battlefield.
In order to pay for this new cavalry army, the Western Han government began to accept scutage payments from the populace in lieu of conscripted military service- this scutage was used to pay for salaried professionals able to undergo long, rigorous cavalry training and to spend long careers on the frontier. So while conscription was legally still in effect, many households paid their way out of it and those conscript-soldiers who did serve had a less critical role and saw less combat. Society as a whole became less militarized. The new frontier armies, like Marian legions, were a social class and interest group unto themselves. This was the army that Emperor Wu used to shatter the Xiongnu Empire and spread Han power into Central Asia, Indochina and the Korean Peninsula.
wrong , persia had contact with china , and who is columbus ? the arabs was there in chinese capital like 700 years before portuguese exploration age , asia was always connect , hell even morroco had diplomatic relations with china 1 century before portugal did .
so no dont say that the world wasnt connected , europe wasnt connected with the world .
Uh, did you read what he said? He said the old world was interconnected, but contact with the new world was more or less none existant aside from basque whalers, Leif Erikson's voyage, and ancient migrants from Asia and Oceania
If China is added, it should be at least CHALLENGING to bridge the gap between the two worlds - otherwise I see this game;
A) even more unrealistic
B) Not Imperator: *Rome* but Imperator Eurasia
-
I suggest the Tibetan mountains be impassable terrain,
Siberia/Urals should inflict lots of attrition and be very hard to colonise
OR
Siberia and Vietnam/Burma area should have some sort of strong bloc which prevents an easy Chinese invasion into India, and thus the middle east.
That would be game breaking, and as far as im aware China is both powerful and very large comparative to Rome and literally every other state during this time period.
tldr; It should be made very hard for China to bridge the gap between East and West - otherwise you break the concept of this game, being a focus on Rome
If China is added, it should be at least CHALLENGING to bridge the gap between the two worlds - otherwise I see this game;
A) even more unrealistic
B) Not Imperator: *Rome* but Imperator Eurasia
-
I suggest the Tibetan mountains be impassable terrain,
Siberia/Urals should inflict lots of attrition and be very hard to colonise
OR
Siberia and Vietnam/Burma area should have some sort of strong bloc which prevents an easy Chinese invasion into India, and thus the middle east.
That would be game breaking, and as far as im aware China is both powerful and very large comparative to Rome and literally every other state during this time period.
tldr; It should be made very hard for China to bridge the gap between East and West - otherwise you break the concept of this game, being a focus on Rome
I mean, there were other reasons why China didn't expand past Tibet or the Gobi desert, for one the land was marginal, or difficult to govern properly, take tibet for example, it was too mountainous and sparsely populated to bother with directly governing, which led to the tributary system being an effective alternative. China also had their fair share of cultural rebellions, as much of western and southern China was not culturally similar to yellow river China.
I mean, there were other reasons why China didn't expand past Tibet or the Gobi desert, for one the land was marginal, or difficult to govern properly, take tibet for example, it was too mountainous and sparsely populated to bother with directly governing, which led to the tributary system being an effective alternative. China also had their fair share of cultural rebellions, as much of western and southern China was not culturally similar to yellow river China.
Yea, realistically an invasion over the Tibet and the Gobi Desert next to it during this time period - would probably be incredibly hard, borderline impossible.. So I think paradox will definitely not make that so IF China is implemented into the game.
But what is slightly worrying, China could probably stage an invasion through modern day Cambodia, Laos & Vietnam through into Bangladesh and then India.. We know where it goes from there..
That would be severely game breaking imo, and I think China is perfectly capable of landing such an invasion during this time period - not unless they're significantly nerfed or their neighbouring states are buffed.
But as it stands Ancient China was a behemoth comparable if not more so than Rome as far as im aware, and for the most part their neighbours militaries could simply not compete with Chinas.. IRL I think what actually held them back was their logistical capabilities to stage their army - But of course paradox usually doesn't capture such scope, and it would be hard to emulate this so as to nerf China from blobbing which will end up being the case if the devs aren't careful.
And this blobbing is exactly what will break the game if not handled correctly.
Yea, realistically an invasion over the Tibet and the Gobi Desert next to it during this time period - would probably be incredibly hard, borderline impossible.. So I think paradox will definitely not make that so IF China is implemented into the game.
But what is slightly worrying, China could probably stage an invasion through modern day Cambodia, Laos & Vietnam through into Bangladesh and then India.. We know where it goes from there..
That would be severely game breaking imo, and I think China is perfectly capable of landing such an invasion during this time period - not unless they're significantly nerfed or their neighbouring states are buffed.
But as it stands Ancient China was a behemoth comparable if not more so than Rome as far as im aware, and for the most part their neighbours militaries could simply not compete with Chinas.. IRL I think what actually held them back was their logistical capabilities to stage their army - But of course paradox usually doesn't capture such scope, and it would be hard to emulate this so as to nerf China from blobbing which will end up being the case if the devs aren't careful.
And this blobbing is exactly what will break the game if not handled correctly.
Let's not forget that China only really adopted firearms after being throughly thrashed by Vietnam. While China did have the population to potentially levy, it's not like they did. Rome had the population to conquer the world, but curiously fell to a number of barbarian tribes.
Yellow Color - Chinese States
Light green colors - tribes Di or Juns (Serica)
Purple color - Viets
Orange color - Tochars
Green color - Thai
Bueo, Joseon, Jin - Koreans
Brown color - Siyue - Austroasians
Where is this map from?
The interesting thing is that Tochars were Indoeuropeans and had European appearence, with dark to blond eyes and brown to blue eyes ... then they got sterminated if not wrong by Mongols and other tribes and disappeared from Asia.
