Probably better represented as subject states. I will not state an opinion on the level.
The Case for, Eventually, China
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Probably better represented as subject states. I will not state an opinion on the level.
I'm of the opinion that most of Hunan and Jiangxi should be Chu territory, but the majority of the population should be Man and Yue tribesmen (made rebellious and unproductive by the high Civilization in Chu). If we were to put subject states in those areas they'd have to be invented.
I'll go into more depth on the culture and population issues in the next entry, it can just take quite a while to write them out.
I'll go into more depth on the culture and population issues in the next entry, it can just take quite a while to write them out.
And here's a bunch of maps by a history enthusiast, covering 307-288BC (approval not sought, so only the link would be put here:
https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/32080350
While I admire the author's skills and determination is verifying details of his many historical maps, I must say I still dispute with some of his details (E.g. Yue still in control of two separate regions in 304 BC, including it's capital Langye, despite the Yue central government being overrun by Chu roughly in 306 BC).
(EDIT: The Spring and Autumn Annals of Wu and Yue gives the final date of the fall of Yue in Langye as 241 BC. Therefore the map above makes sense, though I still maintain the point that I disagree with some details.)
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Makes sense as well. Also an interesting way to weaken Chu, who now have to deal with rebels nearly constantly. Otherwise they would probably overpower Qin, who at the beginning is recovering from a pretender revolt — and, depending on who you ask, may be on the way to another.
I also admire 布哈林's historical maps, he is a machine of making maps, How efficient he is!
Post Eight- Cultures, Pops and Tags
Cultures, Pops and Tags
In 304 BC, there was a strong, shared Chinese identity (in those times called Hua 华 or Huaxia 华夏; the modern term Han 汉 hadn't been coined yet) that nonetheless had significant regional differences in spoken dialect, material culture, music and the like. These regional differences are mostly known through archaeology or anecdotes in written sources, so the boundaries are not known in great detail and there is a great deal of room for interpretation and informed guesswork. In addition to the unambiguously "Chinese" populace, there were also non-Chinese living in state societies (like Yiqu, Zhongshan and the former kingdom of Yue), in agrarian tribes (like the various Man and Baiyue peoples), or as nomads (like the Qiang, Xiongnu or Donghu), across a broad range of ethnolinguistic groupings (Culture Groups). That is to say, the in-game Warring States would be populated not just by "civilized" Chinese pops, but also non-Chinese civilized and uncivilized ones, and the mix of these different cultures, culture groups and pop types will be important for modeling (and balancing) the various Warring States. Here, I'll do a region-by-region breakdown of my suggestions for the demographics of each area, as well as the tags that I believe should be present there.
Nomenclature is tricky here, and it may take some creativity to create a good, descriptive name for each needed culture. There's also plenty of room for debate on my conclusions here, so I invite feedback and criticism from other posters on this.
I wrote and posted this from my phone, but I'll be drawing maps to accompany this and will edit them in when I'm able to.
North China
This area, centered on the Yellow and Wei rivers, is the center of mass for the Chinese culture group and to six of the seven major states, plus a number of smaller ones including Lu, Song and Zhongshan. The Chinese cultures of the area are, in my opinion, best divided into Western (Qin or Guanzhong, centered on the Wei River Valley), Central (Zhongguo or Guandong, in the middle reaches of the Yellow River), Northern (Jin or Sanjin, in the upland states of Wei, Zhao and Hann), and Eastern (difficult to name, but centered on Qi, Yan and Lu; could maybe be split in two).
In addition to the Chinese majority, most of the states of North China also had a non-Chinese minority; Chinese sources do a poor job of describing them in detail but we are still able to do a rough division. In Qin (excluding their lands in Sichuan, which I'll describe in the South China portion) the main minority are Rong people. In the Three Jin region, the Di are the primary minority, but in Zhongshan they made up a particularly large part of the population. Yan starts with small numbers of Di, but historically conquered large territories populated by Donghu and Gojoseon people in the game's early decades. Qi would have its own small, well-integrated Yi or Dongyi population.
Only the area immediately around the Yellow River would have a purely Chinese population, but many of the Rong, Di and Yi pops should be slaves and freemen rather than tribesmen; they had been in close contact with Chinese governments for centuries by then, and caused these states little trouble during this period.
Regarding tags, besides the independent states the only ones I would recommend adding are ones like Zheng, Teng and Cao, small but densely-populated former states of the Central Plains who had been important in the fifth and fourth centuries BC, and Dai, a former kingdom of the Di in Shanxi which would briefly resurface as an independent state under Xiang Yu's feudal system.
South China
Although South China only really has one independent tag in 304 BC, its cultural and political setup is unique and arguably more complex than the one in North China. The Sichuan basin, only brought under Qin rule in 316 BC, was formerly home to two non-Chinese states, Ba and Shu, each deserving of their own culture and tag. The northern part of Chu, centered around modern Hubei, was home to a distinctive Chinese subculture (both Liu Bang and Xiang Yu would hail from this Chu culture), but most of their sprawling territory to the south and east was much less Sinicized.
The eastern territories in modern Jiangsu and Zhejiang had been home to powerful and sophisticated non-Chinese states, Wu and Yue, and had only been brought under Chu rule in the 330s BC; besides some Chu citizens the population should be made up almost entirely of freemen and slaves of Wuyue culture (there could hypothetically be some Wuyue citizens, but even in the old Wu and Yue kingdoms the elite was quite sinicized, and should maybe be rolled into the Chu Chinese culture for simplicity's sake). The southern territories, around Hunan and Jiangxi, had civilized settlements of Chu people (or, in North Jiangxi, Wuyue people) at favorable points along the major rivers, while the rest of the land was inhabited by various Baiyue or Nanman tribes, a number of whom ought to have tags available to them.
The most important takeaway here is that, in Sichuan and the Lower Yangzi, there ought to be substantial populations which are both "civilized" and culturally outside of the Chinese group, each with a tag available to them (Ba, Shu, Wu, and Yue).
The Far South
The parts of modern southern China that were outside the reach of the Warring States- modern Fujian, Guangdong, Guangxi, Guizhou and Yunnan- plus the Red River valley of modern Vietnam, which would come under Han rule in later centuries, are not well-attested in this period but we know enough to broadly draw some cultures and tags. Although all of the tribes of the region were referred to by Chinese under the umbrella terms "Baiyue" and "Nanman", we now know that they included peoples from at least four different language families- Tibeto-Burman, Tai-Kadai, Austronesian (related to Taiwanese aborigines, Malays, Polynesians, etc) and Austroasiatic (related to Vietnamese and Cambodians).
Naturally, the fact that we know the area was quite diverse culturally, and yet we only have a limited set of imprecise names to describe them with, means this area calls for some creativity. These cultures, once drawn out roughly, can be grouped together on the basis of a good guess of their linguistic identity, or they could be grouped together on a geographic basis.
Although these areas should be overwhelmingly tribal, low-centralization, and low-civilization at the start, by halfway through the game the region was home to a handful of strong regional chiefdoms and even something like a proper kingdom in Nanyue (Guangdong, Guangxi and north Vietnam).
The Steppe
Major nomadic peoples to the north of China included Iranic groups like the Yuezhi and Wusun, proto-Mongols like the Donghu, Tibeto-Burmans like the Qiang and, of course, the Xiongnu, whose linguistic identity is not well-understood. Meanwhile, Manchuria and the Korean peninsula were inhabited by proto-Korean tribes who would found Gojoseon, Buyeo, and finally the Korean Three Kingdoms. For this region, I recommend grouping the Iranic tribes together with the Scythians and other related cultures already in-game; the Qiang nomads could be grouped with the Rong and Di, some of whom have given up their nomadic ways; the "other nomads" of various proto-Turkic, proto-Mongol, Yeniseian, etc origins (mainly Xiongnu and Donghu) ought to be a group; and then another for the semi-agrarian peoples of Manchuria and Korea.
Formable Tags and Union Cultures
The Han dynasty is one of the most influential and important empires in history, even giving the Chinese people their modern ethnonym, but the fact that the Han state came to be at all was a bit of a fluke and really can't be modeled with existant game mechanics. It also saw a blending of the Warring States regional cultures, a reinforced common identity, and a hardening of attitudes about the divide between Chinese and barbarians- but under current mechanics, we would see assimilation into the culture of the conquering State rather than a fusion into a new culture. Basically I think the best solution would be to set up a Han Empire formable tag, and a Han culture melting pot for the Chinese culture group.
Other strong candidates for formable tags are the Korean kingdoms, Kushanas/Guishuang for Yuezhi who conquer parts of Central Asia, and maybe some Easter eggs for difficult achievements (like reforming the Shang dynasty if you unify China as Song, ruled by Shang descendants).
In 304 BC, there was a strong, shared Chinese identity (in those times called Hua 华 or Huaxia 华夏; the modern term Han 汉 hadn't been coined yet) that nonetheless had significant regional differences in spoken dialect, material culture, music and the like. These regional differences are mostly known through archaeology or anecdotes in written sources, so the boundaries are not known in great detail and there is a great deal of room for interpretation and informed guesswork. In addition to the unambiguously "Chinese" populace, there were also non-Chinese living in state societies (like Yiqu, Zhongshan and the former kingdom of Yue), in agrarian tribes (like the various Man and Baiyue peoples), or as nomads (like the Qiang, Xiongnu or Donghu), across a broad range of ethnolinguistic groupings (Culture Groups). That is to say, the in-game Warring States would be populated not just by "civilized" Chinese pops, but also non-Chinese civilized and uncivilized ones, and the mix of these different cultures, culture groups and pop types will be important for modeling (and balancing) the various Warring States. Here, I'll do a region-by-region breakdown of my suggestions for the demographics of each area, as well as the tags that I believe should be present there.
Nomenclature is tricky here, and it may take some creativity to create a good, descriptive name for each needed culture. There's also plenty of room for debate on my conclusions here, so I invite feedback and criticism from other posters on this.
I wrote and posted this from my phone, but I'll be drawing maps to accompany this and will edit them in when I'm able to.
North China
This area, centered on the Yellow and Wei rivers, is the center of mass for the Chinese culture group and to six of the seven major states, plus a number of smaller ones including Lu, Song and Zhongshan. The Chinese cultures of the area are, in my opinion, best divided into Western (Qin or Guanzhong, centered on the Wei River Valley), Central (Zhongguo or Guandong, in the middle reaches of the Yellow River), Northern (Jin or Sanjin, in the upland states of Wei, Zhao and Hann), and Eastern (difficult to name, but centered on Qi, Yan and Lu; could maybe be split in two).
In addition to the Chinese majority, most of the states of North China also had a non-Chinese minority; Chinese sources do a poor job of describing them in detail but we are still able to do a rough division. In Qin (excluding their lands in Sichuan, which I'll describe in the South China portion) the main minority are Rong people. In the Three Jin region, the Di are the primary minority, but in Zhongshan they made up a particularly large part of the population. Yan starts with small numbers of Di, but historically conquered large territories populated by Donghu and Gojoseon people in the game's early decades. Qi would have its own small, well-integrated Yi or Dongyi population.
Only the area immediately around the Yellow River would have a purely Chinese population, but many of the Rong, Di and Yi pops should be slaves and freemen rather than tribesmen; they had been in close contact with Chinese governments for centuries by then, and caused these states little trouble during this period.
Regarding tags, besides the independent states the only ones I would recommend adding are ones like Zheng, Teng and Cao, small but densely-populated former states of the Central Plains who had been important in the fifth and fourth centuries BC, and Dai, a former kingdom of the Di in Shanxi which would briefly resurface as an independent state under Xiang Yu's feudal system.
South China
Although South China only really has one independent tag in 304 BC, its cultural and political setup is unique and arguably more complex than the one in North China. The Sichuan basin, only brought under Qin rule in 316 BC, was formerly home to two non-Chinese states, Ba and Shu, each deserving of their own culture and tag. The northern part of Chu, centered around modern Hubei, was home to a distinctive Chinese subculture (both Liu Bang and Xiang Yu would hail from this Chu culture), but most of their sprawling territory to the south and east was much less Sinicized.
The eastern territories in modern Jiangsu and Zhejiang had been home to powerful and sophisticated non-Chinese states, Wu and Yue, and had only been brought under Chu rule in the 330s BC; besides some Chu citizens the population should be made up almost entirely of freemen and slaves of Wuyue culture (there could hypothetically be some Wuyue citizens, but even in the old Wu and Yue kingdoms the elite was quite sinicized, and should maybe be rolled into the Chu Chinese culture for simplicity's sake). The southern territories, around Hunan and Jiangxi, had civilized settlements of Chu people (or, in North Jiangxi, Wuyue people) at favorable points along the major rivers, while the rest of the land was inhabited by various Baiyue or Nanman tribes, a number of whom ought to have tags available to them.
The most important takeaway here is that, in Sichuan and the Lower Yangzi, there ought to be substantial populations which are both "civilized" and culturally outside of the Chinese group, each with a tag available to them (Ba, Shu, Wu, and Yue).
The Far South
The parts of modern southern China that were outside the reach of the Warring States- modern Fujian, Guangdong, Guangxi, Guizhou and Yunnan- plus the Red River valley of modern Vietnam, which would come under Han rule in later centuries, are not well-attested in this period but we know enough to broadly draw some cultures and tags. Although all of the tribes of the region were referred to by Chinese under the umbrella terms "Baiyue" and "Nanman", we now know that they included peoples from at least four different language families- Tibeto-Burman, Tai-Kadai, Austronesian (related to Taiwanese aborigines, Malays, Polynesians, etc) and Austroasiatic (related to Vietnamese and Cambodians).
Naturally, the fact that we know the area was quite diverse culturally, and yet we only have a limited set of imprecise names to describe them with, means this area calls for some creativity. These cultures, once drawn out roughly, can be grouped together on the basis of a good guess of their linguistic identity, or they could be grouped together on a geographic basis.
Although these areas should be overwhelmingly tribal, low-centralization, and low-civilization at the start, by halfway through the game the region was home to a handful of strong regional chiefdoms and even something like a proper kingdom in Nanyue (Guangdong, Guangxi and north Vietnam).
The Steppe
Major nomadic peoples to the north of China included Iranic groups like the Yuezhi and Wusun, proto-Mongols like the Donghu, Tibeto-Burmans like the Qiang and, of course, the Xiongnu, whose linguistic identity is not well-understood. Meanwhile, Manchuria and the Korean peninsula were inhabited by proto-Korean tribes who would found Gojoseon, Buyeo, and finally the Korean Three Kingdoms. For this region, I recommend grouping the Iranic tribes together with the Scythians and other related cultures already in-game; the Qiang nomads could be grouped with the Rong and Di, some of whom have given up their nomadic ways; the "other nomads" of various proto-Turkic, proto-Mongol, Yeniseian, etc origins (mainly Xiongnu and Donghu) ought to be a group; and then another for the semi-agrarian peoples of Manchuria and Korea.
Formable Tags and Union Cultures
The Han dynasty is one of the most influential and important empires in history, even giving the Chinese people their modern ethnonym, but the fact that the Han state came to be at all was a bit of a fluke and really can't be modeled with existant game mechanics. It also saw a blending of the Warring States regional cultures, a reinforced common identity, and a hardening of attitudes about the divide between Chinese and barbarians- but under current mechanics, we would see assimilation into the culture of the conquering State rather than a fusion into a new culture. Basically I think the best solution would be to set up a Han Empire formable tag, and a Han culture melting pot for the Chinese culture group.
Other strong candidates for formable tags are the Korean kingdoms, Kushanas/Guishuang for Yuezhi who conquer parts of Central Asia, and maybe some Easter eggs for difficult achievements (like reforming the Shang dynasty if you unify China as Song, ruled by Shang descendants).
Han is a rebellion against Qin. This name is from a province HanZhong. If Han is a formable tag, then it would be ridiculous that Qin clicks the decision to change its tag iinto Han once it has united China. In my opinion, It's a better decision that the culture of China could be changed into a name of dynasty as long as this dynasty has ruled China and kept peace for at least 50 years. As a Chinese, forgive me for my unfamiliar English.
I understand all of this, I've read 史记. The problem is that for Liu Bang from Pei to end up as the king of Hanzhong is a series of events that the game can't model, unless by very heavy-handed scripted events that ignore player choice.
I see basically three possible ways to deal with this.
One, go with the heavy-handed railroad approach. If China is united by one of the Zhanguo, then after a while an event fires that carves the empire up into the Eighteen Kingdoms, generates Liu Bang and Xiang Yu and all the other characters, and lets the player decide which one they want to continue playing as. I think the drawbacks of doing things this way are pretty clear.
Two, the minimal approach, where you maybe add tags and cores for states like Han 汉 but otherwise let things take their course- in this case you're accepting that there might be a Han Dynasty in one out of ten thousand playthroughs, and the rest of the time we'll just have Qin or Chu or Zhao. You also end up with one of the regional cultures assimilating the others instead of a new common culture, because it doesn't make any sense to have Hanren 汉人 without Han.
Third is the approach I've suggested. The advantages of it is that it allows for a good chance of a Han Dynasty appearing in-game and for a Han cultural union, without forcing the player's hand or undoing their work. The downside is that it is less historically accurate and muddles the origin and meaning of the name "Han." Personally I think this is the most reasonable of the three options given the limitations.
Thank you for your reply. It's amazing that you have learned ShiJi. However, I'd like the second suggestion. There were several rebellions against Qin during that period. Chu led by XiangYu and Han led by LiuBang was two major forces among them. It was possible that Chu led by XiangYu won the civil war and then we Chinese would be called ChuRen. In that case, I prefer the second proposal.
I tend to never thrust Chinese sources maps, they tend to be kind of biased most of the time.
To clear up something that might confuse readers who don't know Chinese- the Warring States Han and the Han dynasty are two different states, in different locations. Their names are two different Chinese characters that just happen to have the same modern Pinyin romanization. The Warring States Han 韩 is one of the Three Jin (in modern Shanxi and Henan) and is sometimes written in English as Hann to distinguish it from the imperial Han 汉, which takes its name from the city of Hanzhong 汉中 and the nearby Han river 汉水.
Basically the issue here is that Han 汉 doesn't exist at the 304 BC start date, since it came out of the rebellions against Qin starting in 208 BC. The question at hand is what approach is best to handle this.
Basically the issue here is that Han 汉 doesn't exist at the 304 BC start date, since it came out of the rebellions against Qin starting in 208 BC. The question at hand is what approach is best to handle this.
Very helpful thread, thank you for making this! I totally agree with you, china dlc/expansion is a must.
I'll respond portion by portion:
Central culture: Guandong is fine (Zhongguo is too broad, according to Xiong Qu, Lord of the Chu); or, by the same logic, Yuzhou.
Northern Culture: if you play in to Yu Gong, Sanjin is the only name that makes sense.
Eastern Culture: I would agree to split this, though not sure where the line is — either along the Taishan or near the Qi-Yan border. May I suggest splitting this into three? Sishui in the south, Qingzhou in the middle (though it covers part of Yanzhou as well) and I don't know what to call the culture in the North.
Tags: Xue, not marked in usual maps in this period, should be a subject of the Qi, ruled by either Lord Ying "Jingguo" or his son, the more famous Lord Wen "Mengchang". We know it is partially autonomous due to Lord Mengchang being able to retreat to Xue and maintain neutrality in the coalition war against King Min of Qi. Similarly, some other states should exist as subjects of the great powers, like Anling for Wei; but I have no time nor ability to list them all (or pinpoint the position of Anling).
For states that you've listed:
Zheng: maybe formable by Han if the ruler is no longer surnamed Han?
Teng: Teng isn't gone yet in 304 BC?
Cao: No additional information here.
Dai: There should be another way to bring Dai into the game.
King Wuling, ruler of Zhao at the start of the game, has established his second son He as Crown Prince. But he felt bad for his elder son Zhang, and had a proposal to split Zhao in half and make Zhang king of Dai. Naturally that did not take place in history, but this is a Paradox game.
In 301 BC, Qin attacked Shu and killed its Marquis, for supposedly poisoning the food sent as tribute to the King of Qin. I would say that this is enough proof that Shu should be its own starting tag, though a vassal of Qin; after all, the Marquis of Shu is a brother of the King of Qin at game start.
Ba is not recorded as having its own Marquis doing anything strange at this point, but there is no reason to assign a Marquis to Shu while keeping Ba an integrated part, so Ba should probably be its own starting tag as well.
Also, Nanman probably needs to be split into Pu and Ganyue; Ganyue in the east wedged between Ouyue and Baiyue, with its (though nonexistent at game start) Gan state; and Pu in the west near Ba, with no tags that I can name.
You can add Hong Bang and Au Lac as tribal confederacies in Vietnam, though it is not required that you recognize either of these as historical; also, there is the state of Fulou in modern day Huizhou, Guangdong. Other interesting sources are the Lü's Spring and Autumn Annals, as well as Vietnamese books which, while containing some figments of imagination, can reveal what people think were there in the Middle Ages.
Western culture: Yongzhou (As the name is used in the book Yu Gong), though Guangxi is a fine name as well
Central culture: Guandong is fine (Zhongguo is too broad, according to Xiong Qu, Lord of the Chu); or, by the same logic, Yuzhou.
Northern Culture: if you play in to Yu Gong, Sanjin is the only name that makes sense.
Eastern Culture: I would agree to split this, though not sure where the line is — either along the Taishan or near the Qi-Yan border. May I suggest splitting this into three? Sishui in the south, Qingzhou in the middle (though it covers part of Yanzhou as well) and I don't know what to call the culture in the North.
Tags: Xue, not marked in usual maps in this period, should be a subject of the Qi, ruled by either Lord Ying "Jingguo" or his son, the more famous Lord Wen "Mengchang". We know it is partially autonomous due to Lord Mengchang being able to retreat to Xue and maintain neutrality in the coalition war against King Min of Qi. Similarly, some other states should exist as subjects of the great powers, like Anling for Wei; but I have no time nor ability to list them all (or pinpoint the position of Anling).
For states that you've listed:
Zheng: maybe formable by Han if the ruler is no longer surnamed Han?
Teng: Teng isn't gone yet in 304 BC?
Cao: No additional information here.
Dai: There should be another way to bring Dai into the game.
King Wuling, ruler of Zhao at the start of the game, has established his second son He as Crown Prince. But he felt bad for his elder son Zhang, and had a proposal to split Zhao in half and make Zhang king of Dai. Naturally that did not take place in history, but this is a Paradox game.
In 301 BC, Qin attacked Shu and killed its Marquis, for supposedly poisoning the food sent as tribute to the King of Qin. I would say that this is enough proof that Shu should be its own starting tag, though a vassal of Qin; after all, the Marquis of Shu is a brother of the King of Qin at game start.
Ba is not recorded as having its own Marquis doing anything strange at this point, but there is no reason to assign a Marquis to Shu while keeping Ba an integrated part, so Ba should probably be its own starting tag as well.
Yue isn't gone yet. Yue has an outpost in Langye (see my correction to my own message above), as well as the states of Minute and Ouyue being formed by the descendants of the Yue.
Also, Nanman probably needs to be split into Pu and Ganyue; Ganyue in the east wedged between Ouyue and Baiyue, with its (though nonexistent at game start) Gan state; and Pu in the west near Ba, with no tags that I can name.
You can add Hong Bang and Au Lac as tribal confederacies in Vietnam, though it is not required that you recognize either of these as historical; also, there is the state of Fulou in modern day Huizhou, Guangdong. Other interesting sources are the Lü's Spring and Autumn Annals, as well as Vietnamese books which, while containing some figments of imagination, can reveal what people think were there in the Middle Ages.
And, naturally, Jin (the one in China, not the one in Korea). There is also another branch of Shang descendants ruling in Gojoseon, known as the Ki clan.
There is nothing else to trust that early. The rule of thumb: if a mapper shows the northern border of Yuan in Buryatia, it's probably fine; though where a nation ends and its tributaries begin need some judgment on one's own. If they show the northern border all the way in Siberia, then you are free not to trust any map made by this person.
Does anyone know an English language source that does, incidentally? In basically every book I've found they hint at how there are more states but never bother going into it, usually implying that some other books do or something. But I haven't found those other books; even the Cambridge History of Ancient China, which I expect is about the most comprehensive one there is, doesn't go over it in detail.
Because yeah, along similar lines to your suggestion for the Qi vassal and Shu and Ba, in the book Eastern Zhou and Qin Civilizations for instance the author went over a whole bunch of parts of Chu that should probably be parted out as vassals given how autonomous they were, and I imagine there's so much more too but maps are always surprisingly vague for such a famous period. I guess it's only really important for map nerds but still.
Post Nine- Tags and Cultures, cont.
The Yu Gong idea is really interesting actually, although we'd have to be a little flexible with the geography if we're going to match it up to the cultures I have in mind. I wouldn't want the Three Jin to be grouped in together with Yan just because Yu Gong says they're both in Jizhou, for example. I'd also lean towards Hanzhong having the same culture as the Wei River valley even though it's in Yu Gong's Liangzhou. But I'm really having a tough time finding appropriate geographic names for Yan and Qi in particular.
West: Guanxi or Guanzhong (Yu Gong: Yongzhou)
Central: Guandong (YG: Yuzhou)
South: Jingchu (YG: Jingzhou)
North: Sanjin (YG: Jizhou?)
East: Qi region- ? (YG: Qingzhou)
Northeast: Yan region- ? (YG: Jizhou?)
I'm also interested in your opinion on how to place Lu and Langye culturally, and what you think about classing the Yue elite as either in the Chinese group or outside of it.
Lord Mengchang's Xue sounds like a very good candidate for some kind of vassal status- could you elaborate a bit on Anling and the others? I have a copy of 左传 on hand so I could look into it myself if you point me in the right direction.
I should clarify: to the best of my knowledge, Zheng, Cao, Teng and Dai do not exist in 304 BC. I'm recommending that they have cores (or whatever Imperator's equivalent of cores is) so that they have a chance of reemerging.
This is another good point. This goes back to my earlier post on the Chinese feudal system- should these marquisates be represented as a special kind of governorship, or as a type of subject state?
I also missed the late fall of Langye, and had assumed Chu swallowed up the entire Yue state in one go. That could actually make for a really good challenging start.
I was waiting until I could draw up some maps before I started getting into the weeds on the divisions of Baiyue and Nanman, but I think that Ouyue in Zhejiang, Ganyue in Jiangxi and Minyue in Fujian is the way to go- Pu, I couldn't say, so I'll defer to you on it. But in game terms, I couldn't really say what should start out as a tribal tag and what should be uncolonized. What's your take on that?
Considering how loose things have been for much of what they've already got in Imperator, I don't see any reason not to include the semi-mythical Viet states and Gija Joseon. A Korean-led Shang restoration would be achievement-worthy.
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@icedt729 , it might be a good idea to bookmark the "dev diary" posts you've made in the thread. The thread is now 13 pages long and will likely grow longer, so it would be good to be able to find your detailed posts more easily. Not only for us readers, but for the devs aswell. 
As a Chinese, I cannot agree with the viewpoint more. It is true that at that age, China is in the Spring and Autumn Period and the Warring States Period. Therefore, it means China had not become a centralized empire yet. In the timeline of Imperator Rome, As the nominal co-owner of the East Asian world, Zhou Tianzi (the nominal ruler of Zhou Dynasty) was only a political symbolic role. Actually, the political structure of China at that time was essentially the hegemony between the nobles. It would probably be similar with European Medieval.
Hence, from my personal view, it might not be very hard to make China to a playable content for Imperator Rome. Furthermore, it would be so appreciated and exciting for me as well as every player which would be interested in Chinese history.
Hence, from my personal view, it might not be very hard to make China to a playable content for Imperator Rome. Furthermore, it would be so appreciated and exciting for me as well as every player which would be interested in Chinese history.
@icedt729 , it might be a good idea to bookmark the "dev diary" posts you've made in the thread. The thread is now 13 pages long and will likely grow longer, so it would be good to be able to find your detailed posts more easily. Not only for us readers, but for the devs aswell.
Very good point- I'd never really used threadmarks before but this seems like a good time to get started.