The Case for, Eventually, China

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Tekore

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I absolutely would prefer china to be added as a normal expansion (like India in Crusader Kings), but I'm curious if it would be possible for the expansion to work like the Warhammer 1 and 2 games, where each can be owned independently, but if you own both then you have the combined map?
 

Stars_and_Bars

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Chinese history in this period mirrors Roman history a lot, so I think that a China expansion would be both an excellent idea and an inevitability in the future.

It'd be also interesting to see how China's neighbours would be portrayed, if they can be portrayed at all considering the early timeline. I know that the history of Japan pretty much starts in the Middle Ages and that in Ancient time the area was just tribal with very little sources on it and only a scant mythology, I know Korea was always heavily tied to China but I don't know how advanced it was at the time, and I know very little of what was the state of Indochina and South-East Asia. I guess Mongolia and Manchuria could easily be occupied by the Xiongnu (potential candidates to be the Huns' ancestors) and proto-Manchu peoples.
This is exactly why it shouldn't be added. If you add china, you'll have to add korea, vietnam, japan, etc, until people are complaining about how they only added enough of indonesia to allow ships to go from egypt to japan.
 

icedt729

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This is exactly why it shouldn't be added. If you add china, you'll have to add korea, vietnam, japan, etc, until people are complaining about how they only added enough of indonesia to allow ships to go from egypt to japan.
Says who?
 

vonFischmarkt

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That's what happened last time with CK2. They were forced to add India, and then immediately people started wanting China, even when there was only a minimal amount of contact in the period. There was even less in the Classical Period.
 

Lord Tataraus

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This is exactly why it shouldn't be added. If you add china, you'll have to add korea, vietnam, japan, etc, until people are complaining about how they only added enough of indonesia to allow ships to go from egypt to japan.

So because people request/suggest additions or changes they should never be added? I really don't follow this line of reasoning. The arguments for including China and the surrounding relevant areas are pretty strong and should be added if the devs agree to those arguments. That doesn't mean that any other suggestions should also be added just because this one is accepted.
 

icedt729

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Can't you read? Obviously says me. and so will say many others once they are given china, then they'll want korea, and then japan, then vietnam and the rest of Indochina, which which include most of modern day malaysia. I am not so stupid that I think people would be satisfied with only having china.
Oh, right, I forgot you're that famous mind reader who knows exactly what everyone else thinks and how they will act. My apologies, o prophet!
 

Ekyman

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That's what happened last time with CK2. They were forced to add India, and then immediately people started wanting China, even when there was only a minimal amount of contact in the period. There was even less in the Classical Period.
And... they haven't added China and almost definitely aren't going to. Worst thing that happens is the "burden" of some threads asking for China. It's silly to not add a something just because it will lead to people asking for other things.
 

Stars_and_Bars

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So because people request/suggest additions or changes they should never be added? I really don't follow this line of reasoning. The arguments for including China and the surrounding relevant areas are pretty strong and should be added if the devs agree to those arguments. That doesn't mean that any other suggestions should also be added just because this one is accepted.
No, that's merely the icing on the cake of why not to add china. The only reason we even have India is because Alexander and his successors tried to conquer parts of it. The original EU rome which had many flaws, barely went into Persia. The game is called Imperator: Rome, it revolves around rome, so obviously they would include at least the map until the largest extent of the roman empire, beyond that the only good reason to add stuff is because it affects how Rome expanded. All of Iran and Transoxiana has to be included because the rise of the parthians has to be possible to deter rome from conquering persia. India was included because the successors of Alexander and later hellenistic kingdoms had some success in conquering the subcontinent, and they need to be included to prevent Parthia from getting too strong to challenge Rome. If you include that much of india, then you may as well include all the rest, and you have to include parts of tibet to prevent india from being too defensible.

Right now, we're at this nice equilibrium where adding any more land doesn't really add much. It doesn't add anything to the scenario which is all about the rise of rome to include china which at best had tributaries in the tarim basin during this time period which is also not included. This game is Rome centric, and anything added should add the interesting things which help rome grow or prevent it from growing. The main focus is rome, and it shouldn't be anything else.
 

Stars_and_Bars

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Oh, right, I forgot you're that famous mind reader who knows exactly what everyone else thinks and how they will act. My apologies, o prophet!
Apology accepted. Hear my prophecy, that if china is added, people will want Korea, Japan and Indochina. The game will no longer be called Imperator: Rome, but Emperor: Antiquity
 

royal_gryf

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Apology accepted. Hear my prophecy, that if china is added, people will want Korea, Japan and Indochina. The game will no longer be called Imperator: Rome, but Emperor: Antiquity

For a Chinese expansion, Korea is a must since it's connected to and heavily interacted with China, just like northern Vietnam.

All those other regions are a different story though. They would be equivalent to what the wasteland in Germania is like, with a few scattered tribes here and there and like two tiny states in all of Indochina for most of the game period, at best. So sure, they could be added "because China was added", but it wouldn't add much and unlike northern Europe which did interact with the Mediterranean a fair bit, Indochina and Japan were fairly isolated. In fact Indochina was Indianized because China didn't bother to do anything there at all. Japan was effectively colonized by Koreans during the time period but not in the sense that a Korean state exerted some influence there, so that unique situation makes Japan better off never added either way.
(To put it into perspective, it also means that pushing back the start date to anytime before 800 BCE would be difficult because of all the migrations and colonization going on at the time that would also require new mechanics).

It would only make sense to add those regions if there was an expansion into the Imperial era when Japan and most states in Indochina started to appear, and that in itself may not happen in a long time, if at all.

So sure, you're right that some people will want those regions to be added, but those regions have so little to offer it would be a waste of time and space, and that's with taking all their legendary histories (Jimmu, etc..) into account too.

Indochina also had many massive barriers as well. For example, Vietnam wouldn't require the rest of Indochina to be added because of all the natural barriers (mountains, jungle) between it and the rest of Indochina.
And an army attempting to passing through it? Qing tried to subjugate Burma at their most powerful in the 1700s and failed miserably. It would be like Hannibal through the alps but with jungles, monsoons, and diseases. Tibet is a safe and reasonable path compared to that.
 

TheDarkMaster

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As I pointed out earlier, Scandinavia and Northern Germany had less contact with Rome than China did, so we're already throwing out the idea that areas should be added first and foremost due to their significance and contact with Rome. The only reason that the steppe areas are relevant to Rome is because of migration of tribes into areas around the Roman empire, but that's long after the game ends. So the whole steppe could be cut as well on the grounds of no relevance to Rome during the game's period. As we've seen in the dev clash, the steppe's existence encourages players to migrate North just to get steppe horses to make horse archers. That's not historically accurate. Arguably even India is less relevant to Roman history than China is.

Rome and China were trading partners, respected one another as peers, and traded technology and culture with one another. If a tiny landlocked Germanic tribe can buy war elephants from Carthage, a mighty Rome should be able to buy silk from China.
 

Stars_and_Bars

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For a Chinese expansion, Korea is a must since it's connected to and heavily interacted with China, just like northern Vietnam.

All those other regions are a different story though. They would be equivalent to what the wasteland in Germania is like, with a few scattered tribes here and there and like two tiny states in all of Indochina for most of the game period, at best. So sure, they could be added "because China was added", but it wouldn't add much and unlike northern Europe which did interact with the Mediterranean a fair bit, Indochina and Japan were fairly isolated. In fact Indochina was Indianized because China didn't bother to do anything there at all. Japan was effectively colonized by Koreans during the time period but not in the sense that a Korean state exerted some influence there, so that unique situation makes Japan better off never added either way.
(To put it into perspective, it also means that pushing back the start date to anytime before 800 BCE would be difficult because of all the migrations and colonization going on at the time that would also require new mechanics).

It would only make sense to add those regions if there was an expansion into the Imperial era when Japan and most states in Indochina started to appear, and that in itself may not happen in a long time, if at all.

So sure, you're right that some people will want those regions to be added, but those regions have so little to offer it would be a waste of time and space, and that's with taking all their legendary histories (Jimmu, etc..) into account too.

Indochina also had many massive barriers as well. For example, Vietnam wouldn't require the rest of Indochina to be added because of all the natural barriers (mountains, jungle) between it and the rest of Indochina.
And an army attempting to passing through it? Qing tried to subjugate Burma at their most powerful in the 1700s and failed miserably. It would be like Hannibal through the alps but with jungles, monsoons, and diseases. Tibet is a safe and reasonable path compared to that.

Is it even possible to have a map projection that has Sri Lanka, Somalia, and Korea without having Indochina? Or are you saying to merely include it as a wasteland? Would sea travel between Korea and Egypt be possible in-game or would they be separate unconnected bodies of water the Mediterranean sea and Indian ocean currently in game. Anyways the argument about including china and not including japan is paper-thin. adding china already has very little to offer in terms of adding to gameplay, adding it would merely draw peoples attention further east when, the game is supposed to be mostly about Rome. Though if you added China and korea, there's no reason not to add japan, even though it would add very little, because that's already the case with adding china. Another bad thing about adding china is that they would have to expand the steppe lands to include tarim basin and mongolia as well as expand the pontic steppe a bit farther north. It's likely the whole map projection would have to be adjusted to prevented either europe or china from looking ridiculous.
 

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As I pointed out earlier, Scandinavia and Northern Germany had less contact with Rome than China did, so we're already throwing out the idea that areas should be added first and foremost due to their significance and contact with Rome. The only reason that the steppe areas are relevant to Rome is because of migration of tribes into areas around the Roman empire, but that's long after the game ends. So the whole steppe could be cut as well on the grounds of no relevance to Rome during the game's period. As we've seen in the dev clash, the steppe's existence encourages players to migrate North just to get steppe horses to make horse archers. That's not historically accurate. Arguably even India is less relevant to Roman history than China is.

Rome and China were trading partners, respected one another as peers, and traded technology and culture with one another. If a tiny landlocked Germanic tribe can buy war elephants from Carthage, a mighty Rome should be able to buy silk from China.
What are you talking about? The Cimbri and Teutones invaded Italy in 101 BC. Trade between Northern Europe and the Mediterranean is more common in this time period and easily accessible than trade between Rome and China. The Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa and traded with Britain. The Celts traded amber, lumber, tin, from the Germany, Baltics, Brittain and Scandinavia to buyers in the Mediterranean. All of this was happening BEFORE Augustus Caesar conquered Gaul. The first alleged instance of direct contact between China and Rome would have occurred during the reign of augustus, when the "Seres" sent envoys, though that may not even be true, because the Chinese records insist that Gan Ying was the first envoy to even reach mesopotamia in 97 a.d. You really are underestimating the accomplishments of Celtic civilization and Phoenician civilization if you think that China had more interactions with Italy than Northern Europe did. Europe is a much smaller place than you think. It takes less time to go from Rome to northern Germany than from Rome to Cteisiphon
travel-time-ancient-rome.png
 

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Ultimately PDS is going to do what they think is best for their business and their product, and in the meantime, forum discussions don't cause any harm to anyone.

We also have a dev response in here stating that they currently have no locked-in DLC plans and are open to the idea of incorporating China in some way, so there's that.
 

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Is it even possible to have a map projection that has Sri Lanka, Somalia, and Korea without having Indochina? Or are you saying to merely include it as a wasteland? Would sea travel between Korea and Egypt be possible in-game or would they be separate unconnected bodies of water the Mediterranean sea and Indian ocean currently in game. Anyways the argument about including china and not including japan is paper-thin. adding china already has very little to offer in terms of adding to gameplay, adding it would merely draw peoples attention further east when, the game is supposed to be mostly about Rome. Though if you added China and korea, there's no reason not to add japan, even though it would add very little, because that's already the case with adding china. Another bad thing about adding china is that they would have to expand the steppe lands to include tarim basin and mongolia as well as expand the pontic steppe a bit farther north. It's likely the whole map projection would have to be adjusted to prevented either europe or china from looking ridiculous.

Having it entirely as a wasteland would the idea, yeah. Like I said Indochina, especially the hellish interior but also the coast, was only populated by scattered Austroasiatic and Austronesian tribes. It simply wouldn't need to be anything more than a wasteland.
Sea travel could be possible since one of the earliest references to Indochina was through Ptolemy's map with some "Golden Peninsula", even before the Chinese, itself possibly derived from Indian geography. That should also probably put their (Indochina's) isolation, especially from China, into perspective. Also the other reason is trade, which I explain below.
Don't forget that the realistic supply limit would make any expedition around the Malay Peninsula completely unrealistic. So even if it would be added as some sea equivalent of Hannibal's journey for the lulz it would never really be used.

Regarding the inland, the Han dynasty also warred with some "Dayuan" (possibly Great Ionia), which led to the establishment of something like a Silk Road and of the Western Protectorate over all the Tocharian nomads-turned-city-states around 100 BCE after the various wars the Han had with the Xiongnu, placed comfortably within the time frame of the game. The western Tarim is also already in the game incidentally.

Apart from all that, China would actually have notable in-game interaction with the rest of Afro-Eurasia as well, in the form of trade relations. The system, although a downgrade from Vicky's system, is still in-depth enough to make a Chinese presence impactful to Rome itself.
Starting half-way through the game's time, or perhaps a conquest of the Tarim by one of the neighboring empires, as happened irl, could trigger a Silk Road event that would cause actual economic impacts throughout the world. The envoy Zhang Qian is an example of deliberate interaction with the West (Parthia), in 114BCE, which is considered the beginning of the Silk Road, also placed comfortably within the time frame of the game. Think silk slowly reaching Rome from China. Certainly China would have as much of an impact on Rome as India if that is the biggest concern, and India definitely interacted with Rome, particularly through the port of Berenike and trading ports on Socotra (Sukhadhara).
It would also be cool if these wastelands could have some stock resources Indian traders could retrieve and then disperse from India so these wastelands could also have an impact while still being simply wastelands.

You're right about the strange CK2 projection. I don't know how it works is exactly but it seems like in I:R there's some interesting feature where the camera adjusts itself in India however so perhaps the projection could actually be even more accurate with this system since the regions wouldn't be as squished as on a flat map. On the other hand, the projection being something like an unwrapped cone would mean Indonesia would be safely out of the picture being too far south.
The EU4 mod Imperium Universalis also has a map with Somali cities that shows how China could be safely added without having much of Indonesia visible.
Of course it would still be "ugly", but I would really like if we got away from the whole map-painting theme please... Sacrificing accuracy for an aesthetically pleasing appearance would be going in the wrong direction. Ideally the map should just be part of a globe like on Google Maps and everything should be more complex than Vicky 2 and as completely historically accurate as possible, but I digress. Make it full of pretty jungles and rivers if that's such a big deal and have a tooltip saying "Here be complex migrations and sparse tribes".

These are just the arguments for China's impact on the rest of Afro-Eurasia. As you can see China can have notable interaction since the trade system allows it. Certainly as much as India has with Rome.

Japan is more of an issue than just offering very little. At the game start it would be mostly populated by Jomon peoples like Hayato and Kumaso with some event that brings Korean pops over... then something happens and the Japanese Nakoku around Fukuoka appears around 1 CE, and that's just for Kyushu. There's really just no info about this area. Any attempt to include it would be beyond speculation.

I will give you the whole expanding map to Mongolia however. The Xiongnu were massive and could take on China up until its unification and they would add a lot of "cities" as a result.
Even then, the Xiongnu were an interesting confederation of Turks, Mongols, Kets, and Tocharians and who knows who else so including them would be a must for a horde focused expansion. Until such an expansion however they could just be overbuffed or given massive defensive attrition to make them a simple raiding nuisance to China, basically with not even half the amount of provinces as the entire Pontic and Kazakh Steppes, mostly just corridors through the Gobi and Altai between it, China, Tarim, and the central steppe. Hordes will probably be OP like they are in every Paradox game so they won't need many "cities" either way.

I suppose at this point it's just about opinion though. I would personally favour a Chinese expansion that say featured on the establishment of philosophies as a feature wholly separate from religion and anything else. It would work nicely with Indian and Hellenistic philosophies too. In fact a lot of the pro-China points brought up involve how similar the Warring States period was to say Rome's situation. Anything that would work great for China would work either as an exact equivalent or novel mechanic for India and the West, and vice-versa. So the whole notion that China would remove potential work time for mechanics from the rest of map is simply not true. It would be the opposite in fact, unlike the vast wastelands and harsh terrain that is Indochina.

I also think it's unfair to have a game about the Hellenistic era exclusively focus around the Mediterranean. What if Alexander never went further than Gedrosia? We would probably be arguing about how India is completely isolated but then Buddhist monks to Athens and then the war elephants... etc... India is still worthy of inclusion on its own right, Rome be damned. Rome is just the poster boy because they happened to unite the place. It doesn't mean Carthage, Egypt, and Iran were lesser. That's completely disingenuous of the entire Hellenistic era. I'm very happy that Eurocentrism is impossible here since the Europeans were just filthy barbarians during this time and peoples were not divided into Europeans, Asians, and Libyans anyhow.

Of course if an expansion into the Imperial age came out in say 2 years from now, I would admittedly support Burma, Funan and Japan to be included, but they would still be utter wastelands up until 50 CEish and most of their mechanics would simply be borrowed from whatever India and China already have, respectively, with maybe, 100 cities at most.

The only real argument against China that I see would be performance issues, hence why I pointed out that China did not interact at all with Indochina nor Japan and those regions just have nothing to offer but wasteland for 100% of the game time; 75% if the game is expanded to end at like 632 CE.

Apologies if I make no sense I'm tired.
 
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Stars_and_Bars

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Having it entirely as a wasteland would the idea, yeah. Like I said Indochina, especially the hellish interior but also the coast, was only populated by scattered Austroasiatic and Austronesian tribes. It simply wouldn't need to be anything more than a wasteland.
Sea travel could be possible since one of the earliest references to Indochina was through Ptolemy's map with some "Golden Peninsula", even before the Chinese, itself possibly derived from Indian geography. That should also probably put their (Indochina's) isolation, especially from China, into perspective. Also the other reason is trade, which I explain below.
Don't forget that the realistic supply limit would make any expedition around the Malay Peninsula completely unrealistic. So even if it would be added as some sea equivalent of Hannibal's journey for the lulz it would never really be used.

Regarding the inland, the Han dynasty also warred with some "Dayuan" (possibly Great Ionia), which led to the establishment of something like a Silk Road and of the Western Protectorate over all the Tocharian nomads-turned-city-states around 100 BCE after the various wars the Han had with the Xiongnu, placed comfortably within the time frame of the game. The western Tarim is also already in the game incidentally.

Apart from all that, China would actually have notable in-game interaction with the rest of Afro-Eurasia as well, in the form of trade relations. The system, although a downgrade from Vicky's system, is still in-depth enough to make a Chinese presence impactful to Rome itself.
Starting half-way through the game's time, or perhaps a conquest of the Tarim by one of the neighboring empires, as happened irl, could trigger a Silk Road event that would cause actual economic impacts throughout the world. The envoy Zhang Qian is an example of deliberate interaction with the West (Parthia), in 114BCE, which is considered the beginning of the Silk Road, also placed comfortably within the time frame of the game. Think silk slowly reaching Rome from China. Certainly China would have as much of an impact on Rome as India if that is the biggest concern, and India definitely interacted with Rome, particularly through the port of Berenike and trading ports on Socotra (Sukhadhara).
It would also be cool if these wastelands could have some stock resources Indian traders could retrieve and then disperse from India so these wastelands could also have an impact while still being simply wastelands.
The silk road could easily be handled by a trade system without the need for a real political impact on the map. I would hope that the trade system would be decent and make sense, but there's no guarantees. Personally I don't want to include china because that would probably ruin multiplayer, and we already have india, and that will probably already imbalance the game. More recent paradox games have tended to be more ahistorical than i'd like. If including china means that in multiplayer, the Chinese empire will unrealistically extend all the way to the Caucususes or babylon, or somehow control all of india as well as all of china, I would rather the game not exist at all, though obviously that's not my choice. That kind of hellish imbalanced game is pure suffering, and my faith in paradox to balance it is decreasing each day.
You're right about the strange CK2 projection. I don't know how it works is exactly but it seems like in I:R there's some interesting feature where the camera adjusts itself in India however so perhaps the projection could actually be even more accurate with this system since the regions wouldn't be as squished as on a flat map. On the other hand, the projection being something like an unwrapped cone would mean Indonesia would be safely out of the picture being too far south.
The EU4 mod Imperium Universalis also has a map with Somali cities that shows how China could be safely added without having much of Indonesia visible.
Of course it would still be "ugly", but I would really like if we got away from the whole map-painting theme please... Sacrificing accuracy for an aesthetically pleasing appearance would be going in the wrong direction. Ideally the map should just be part of a globe like on Google Maps and everything should be more complex than Vicky 2 and as completely historically accurate as possible, but I digress. Make it full of pretty jungles and rivers if that's such a big deal and have a tooltip saying "Here be complex migrations and sparse tribes".

These are just the arguments for China's impact on the rest of Afro-Eurasia. As you can see China can have notable interaction since the trade system allows it. Certainly as much as India has with Rome.

Japan is more of an issue than just offering very little. At the game start it would be mostly populated by Jomon peoples like Hayato and Kumaso with some event that brings Korean pops over... then something happens and the Japanese Nakoku around Fukuoka appears around 1 CE, and that's just for Kyushu. There's really just no info about this area. Any attempt to include it would be beyond speculation.

I will give you the whole expanding map to Mongolia however. The Xiongnu were massive and could take on China up until its unification and they would add a lot of "cities" as a result.
Even then, the Xiongnu were an interesting confederation of Turks, Mongols, Kets, and Tocharians and who knows who else so including them would be a must for a horde focused expansion. Until such an expansion however they could just be overbuffed or given massive defensive attrition to make them a simple raiding nuisance to China, basically with not even half the amount of provinces as the entire Pontic and Kazakh Steppes, mostly just corridors through the Gobi and Altai between it, China, Tarim, and the central steppe. Hordes will probably be OP like they are in every Paradox game so they won't need many "cities" either way.
It's funny, so many of the reasons that support why china should be added, are for me reasons why china should not be added. Having to realistically model the xiognu confederacy, when there is nothing of comparison in the western steppes until the huns, is just an extra burden. If China and the Xiognu are added, I really hope that they are added very late into the dlc cycle. There's so much to explore and flesh out in the Mediterranean and the middle east, before you would run out of possible content, that adding china would be necessary. Though you've convinced me that Japan never need be included, even if the dreaded day that china might be included.
I suppose at this point it's just about opinion though. I would personally favour a Chinese expansion that say featured on the establishment of philosophies as a feature wholly separate from religion and anything else. It would work nicely with Indian and Hellenistic philosophies too. In fact a lot of the pro-China points brought up involve how similar the Warring States period was to say Rome's situation. Anything that would work great for China would work either as an exact equivalent or novel mechanic for India and the West, and vice-versa. So the whole notion that China would remove potential work time for mechanics from the rest of map is simply not true. It would be the opposite in fact, unlike the vast wastelands and harsh terrain that is Indochina.

I also think it's unfair to have a game about the Hellenistic era exclusively focus around the Mediterranean. What if Alexander never went further than Gedrosia? We would probably be arguing about how India is completely isolated but then Buddhist monks to Athens and then the war elephants... etc... India is still worthy of inclusion on its own right, Rome be damned. Rome is just the poster boy because they happened to unite the place. It doesn't mean Carthage, Egypt, and Iran were lesser. That's completely disingenuous of the entire Hellenistic era. I'm very happy that Eurocentrism is impossible here since the Europeans were just filthy barbarians during this time and peoples were not divided into Europeans, Asians, and Libyans anyhow.

Of course if an expansion into the Imperial age came out in say 2 years from now, I would admittedly support Burma, Funan and Japan to be included, but they would still be utter wastelands up until 50 CEish and most of their mechanics would simply be borrowed from whatever India and China already have, respectively, with maybe, 100 cities at most.

The only real argument against China that I see would be performance issues, hence why I pointed out that China did not interact at all with Indochina nor Japan and those regions just have nothing to offer but wasteland for 100% of the game time; 75% if the game is expanded to end at like 632 CE.

Apologies if I make no sense I'm tired.
I don't understand how philosophy would actually affect the game-play. Philosophy is very interesting, but I can't see a decent way to add things like that without it just being modifiers, which is way too reductionist. As for the warring states period, I must confess ignorance, and profess ignorance that I don't see how the Rise of Rome relates to the warring states period.

As for the Hellenistic period itself, for the most part it did focus around the Mediterranean. Macedon, Egypt, and the Seleucid empire all had their capitals very close to the Mediterranean. The Seleucid empire obviously also controlled most of Iran, and there was the Greco-Bactrian kingdom, and the later Indo-Greek kingdom, but for the most part the Hellenistic world focuses on the Mediterranean. Personally I'm worried that India won't be dynamic enough to mirror the "rapid" changes which happened in these few centuries. Within 150 years of game start, the Mauryan dynasty has collapsed, and it's successor empire is much smaller, then Indo Greeks conquer northwest India, then the Sakas do the same thing.

It's pointless to ask what if Alexander never went beyond Gedrosia, because he went to Gedrosia, the Indo-Bactrian and Indo-greeks kingdoms can only conquer northwest india once the Mauryan dynasty has collapsed, Alexander didn't conquer India, he barely even subdued the Indus, less than two decades later, the Mauryans would conquer it, and Seleucus Nicator would cede the Indus after a brief war to Chandragupta, the war ended with a marriage alliance and Chandragupta giving Seleucus 500 elephants, which helped Seleucus fight the other Diadochi. So, yes India is warranted in this game, that's not really in question, but it's in relation to the Hellenistic world, which is centered around the Mediterranean.

Rome be not damned. Rome didn't just happen to conquer their empire, nothing just "happens". Rome fought tirelessly and obsessively for their empire. When Rome lost 50,000 men at Cannae, they raised another army. In this time period, the average roman citizen valued the sovereignty of Rome over the lives of its citizens. When Alexander conquered his empire, there was already existing systems to govern these large swathes of territory. When Rome conquer Spain, Gaul, Britain, Illyria etc. there had never been any large empire that united them and administered them. Those areas weren't as uncivilized as you might think, but they weren't united before Rome did it by force.

I don't mean to diminish Carthage, Egypt or Iran, but Rome still conquered Carthage and Egypt. Iran obviously stayed independent. Rome is not merely the poster boy. Rome is overwhelming tide that swept away most of the kingdoms of the Hellenistic world. It was Rome's victory over the Seleucid empire when Antiochus III was at the height of his power (having conquered Asia minor and subdued rebellious vassals in the east) and the massive indemnity imposed on the empire which allowed Parthia to wrestle control of Iran away from the Greeks.

It's funny that you should mention euro-centrism, because euro-centrism only exists because of Rome. Many European empires have been trying to recreate the glory of Rome: Frankish empire, Holy Roman Empire, Napoleon, Tsarist Russia, and the German Empire, and even America, all wrapping themselves up with Roman law, titles, architecture, etc. If Rome had not conquered their empire, the idea of a European person wouldn't even exist.

Also I think you're giving the Celtic civilization less credit than it deserves. Sure, the Celts never united into a single empire, but they traded a lot. The Celts unlike, unlike the Germanic, and many steppe nomads, were not true barbarians, at least not the ones in mainland Europe. They exist in this fuzzy category with settled towns and fortified walls and trading a lot, but also constantly fighting each other and migrating whole tribes if need be. They have no single writing system, but then again neither did India, they adopted writing systems from nearby people. People are probably biased against them because we have scant records of them ever producing literature or histories before being conquered by Rome.