The Byzantine Empire Vs the Mongols: Place your bets.

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Just found a bit of a better map, De Slard...

The territory shown as the "Empire of Nicea" was essentially what was held by Vatatzes in 1241 (plus a little more, but not that much of a difference).

Cherson and Trebizond are looking like bases of Byzantines' campaigns

(supporting points Byzantines' campaigns to Rus and Balkan)

EDIT: Epirus was subdued in 1252 (not 1241)???
Thessalonika was subdued in 1241.
Am I right?

 

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A lot, like Theodore I defeated Seljuks bitterly killing the sultan himself Qay-Husrau I. Or you wanna tell me that was done out of love and passion towards them?

I have read about knight's duel between both rulers. Is it this situation looking like relation of two furious enemies?

Turks respect Ioannes Vatatzes as a saint? If i am precise, they destroyed his tomb after they had managed to capture Magnesia, the city where his remains were moved from Sosandra monastery.

Have we Turks here? Can they (you?) answer me exacty about it?

 

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Either your saying that the tribes north of the black see were allies of Byzantine or....what?

How do you retreat not just away, but above, around and finally in front of your enemy? You must think that the people ruling Constantinople were pretty stupid to allow this huge army with a long (500?) mile supply line along the Black sea to go without a raid to try to distrup it.

If Catholic fleets cut emperor army that fought in Balkan from Asia. Is it not stupid?

 

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Cherson and Trebizond are looking like bases of Byzantines' campaigns

(supporting points Byzantines' campaigns to Rus and Balkan)

You should really do a little more reading on the subject. The Empire of Nicea and the Empire of Trebizond actually fought each other in the years after the Fourth Crusade. They certainly wouldn't have helped Vatatzes in an effort for him to retake Constantinople (when the Comneni in Trebizond wanted it for themselves) - not that they would have been able to help him even if they wanted to. The Empire of Trebizond could barely defend themselves from Turkish attacks, much less help organize an expedition around the Black Sea. Cherson was a territory held by Trebizond, but only very loosely. It would have been no more help than Trebizond itself.

On top of this, Vatatzes would still have had to travel through Turkish territory just to get to Trebizond. This, of course, is something that didn't happen either. Indeed, it had no chance of happening whatsoever.

Enough of this, though. Show me some historical evidence supporting this. Something more than your speculation that 'it could have been used as a base of operations'.

 

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If Catholic fleets cut emperor army that fought in Balkan from Asia. Is it not stupid?

The Byzantines had the support of the Venetians and the Genoese at varying times to help them against the navies of their enemies. In any case, the Byzantines *did* travel across the Hellespont from time to time, both before and after this supposed expedition around the Black Sea. They had the capability to do that - there was no reason for them to travel around the Black Sea to get to Europe.

Again, read some books on the subject. Everything you're saying here seems to be your own speculation, which flies in the face of what is known to have happened. Don't make claims that aren't backed up by historical research.

 

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Have we Turks here? Can they (you?) answer me exacty about it?

What Turks think today is irrelevant. What matters is what the Turks who neighbored the Nicean Empire though in 1241. I can guarantee you, they weren't friends...

 

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Thessalonika was subdied in 1241.
Am I right?

1246, actually. That's when the population there opened the gates to Vatatzes.

 

[MRAKoris]

1246, actually. That's when the population there opened the gates to Vatatzes.

Disagree, Thessalonika was subdued officially in 1242, but Ioannes visited it 4 years later.

And one more thingie, De Slard, Marcus Valerius is right Trebizond in noway would have helped Nicaea, since right after the 4th Crusade Trebizond unleashed a war against Nicaea, its commander Sinadun invaded Nicaean Pathlogonia (not quite sure of the spelling, Marcus Valerius may be you know it?).

 

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You should really do a little more reading on the subject. The Empire of Nicea and the Empire of Trebizond actually fought each other in the years after the Fourth Crusade. They certainly wouldn't have helped Vatatzes in an effort for him to retake Constantinople - not that they would have been able to help him even if they wanted to.

Then how he retake Constantinople. Where he took his resources all these years 1204-1261?

On top of this, Vatatzes would still have had to travel through Turkish territory just to get to Trebizond. This, of course, is something that didn't happen either. Indeed, it had no chance of happening whatsoever.

Enough of this, though. Show me some historical evidence supporting this. Something more than your speculation that 'it could have been used as a base of operations'.

Orthodoxy was finally placed in Rus during Tartars (?Mongols???) invasion.
(Even Rus Princes had second pagan's names before invasion)

Very advanced army of Mongolian cattle-breeders and their great generals. Who could have the same advanced army (technically) and best-prepared generals?


P.S. Matrix has you
(joke) :rofl:

 

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Disagree, Thessalonika was subdued officially in 1242, but Ioannes visited it 4 years later.

Actually, my turn to disagree with you. Vatatzes put Thessalonika under siege in 1242, but abandoned the siege to return to Asia Minor. He captured some Thracian towns, and got the 'Emperor' there to accept the title of 'Despot' instead under his suzerainty. Vatatzes didn't actually gain the city itself until it was betrayed to him by it's inhabitants in 1246. So, I guess you could say we're both right, in some respects...

And one more thingie, De Slard, Marcus Valerius is right Trebizond in noway would have helped Nicaea, since right after the 4th Crusade Trebizond unleashed a war against Nicaea, its commander Sinadun invaded Nicaean Pathlogonia (not quite sure of the spelling, Marcus Valerius may be you know it?).

Paphlagonia is what you're thinking of, I believe.

 

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The Byzantines had the support of the Venetians and the Genoese at varying times to help them against the navies of their enemies.

Are you kidding . Venetians didn't force crusaders to take Constantinople that was their main trade competitor?

Please, read better the object

 

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Then how he retake Constantinople. Where he took his resources all these years 1204-1261?

Well, considering that the person I was saying who didn't have the resources to help Vatatzes organize an expedition around the Black Sea *wasn't* the one who retook Constantinople, I don't see how your question has any relevance...

In any case, it didn't take many resources to retake Constantinople for Nicea, since it was simply accomplished by a military patrol in the area who came upon the city and found that the Latins had left the walls undefended to go on a raid along the Black Sea coast.

Orthodoxy was finally placed in Rus during Tartars (?Mongols???) invasion.
(Even Rus Princes had second pagan's names before invasion)

Very advanced army of Mongolian cattle-breeders and their great generals. Who could have the same advanced army (technically) and best-prepared generals?

Orthodoxy was spread in the Rus through Christian missionaries sent at the request of the rulers of the Rus (before the Mongols, I believe). An army of Byzantines traveling about would not have Christianized the Rus.

Very advanced army of Mongolian cattle-breeders and their great generals. Who could have the same advanced army (technically) and best-prepared generals?

None of this is historical evidence of an expedition around the Black Sea, though. It is nothing more than speculation (not even taking into account that the Byzantine and Mongol armies were vastly different). Try again...

 

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Are you kidding . Venetians didn't force crusaders to take Constantinople that was their main trade competitor?

Please, read better the object

No, I'm not kidding. At various times, both before and after the Fourth Crusade, the Byzantines were had the support of the Venetians or the Genoese. At other times, they fought one or the other. The politics between the Greek and Latin successor states and the western powers after the Fourth Crusade were very complicated. Perhaps you should be doing some reading on the subject...

 

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And one more thingie, De Slard, Marcus Valerius is right Trebizond in noway would have helped Nicaea, since right after the 4th Crusade Trebizond unleashed a war against Nicaea, its commander Sinadun invaded Nicaean Pathlogonia (not quite sure of the spelling, Marcus Valerius may be you know it?).

I were only looking on the picture of emperors possessions that Marcus Valerius was posted. It was his picture. All questions to him :rofl:

 

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I were only looking on the picture of emperors possessions that Marcus Valerius was posted. It was his picture. All questions to him :rofl:

Ignore it if you like, but what he says is true - the two empires did fight over Paphlagonia after the Fourth Crusade, and both had dreams of retaking Constantinople and with it the legitimate title of Byzantine Emperor. Do you seriously think that one would help the other gain Constantinople?

 

[MRAKoris]

Actually, my turn to disagree with you. Vatatzes put Thessalonika under siege in 1242, but abandoned the siege to return to Asia Minor. He captured some Thracian towns, and got the 'Emperor' there to accept the title of 'Despot' instead under his suzerainty. Vatatzes didn't actually gain the city itself until it was betrayed to him by it's inhabitants in 1246. So, I guess you could say we're both right, in some respects...




Paphlagonia is what you're thinking of, I believe.

1. Oh well, this is more or less what i meant.
2. Precisely.

 

[MRAKoris]

Then how he retake Constantinople. Where he took his resources all these years 1204-1261?

P.S. Matrix has you
(joke) :rofl:

Who retook Constantinople? Ioannes III? Errr... you baffle me... and what about Alexios Strategopoulos, what did he retake? A can of beer?

 

[MRAKoris]

Are you kidding . Venetians didn't force crusaders to take Constantinople that was their main trade competitor?

Please, read better the object

You may laugh of course, but De Slard, Marcus is absolutely right.

 

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Who retook Constantinople? Ioannes III? Errr... you baffle me... and what about Alexios Strategopoulos, what did he retake? A can of beer?

Sorry, he died in 1254. I mean all tiny empire.
I can paraphrase "Where they took resources all these years 1204-1261?"

 

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Sorry, he died in 1254. I mean all tiny empire.
I can paraphrase "Where they took resources all these years 1204-1261?"

As I said before, it didn't take much in the way of resources to retake Constantinople, since the city was basically undefended.


Anyway, I'm still waiting for some sort of historical evidence for this trip around the Black Sea that Vatatzes undertook...