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1930spolitics.jpeg
Was that supposed to be an actual image, or is that just a joke?
Also, while we are on the subject of tanks, why did nobody forward the idea of a "Lancelot" tank with a pointy stick in front?

EDIT: Well, would you look at that? I didn't mean to steal someone's thunder; come to think of it, I missed the comment number.
 
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1930spolitics.jpeg
Was that supposed to be an actual image, or is that just a joke?
Also, while we are on the subject of tanks, why did nobody forward the idea of a "Lancelot" tank with a pointy stick in front?
Oh no, @J66185, you stole top of page from @El Pip! Two things, a: we have to fill the next eighteen posts with useless spam that we call meaningful commentary while we wait for our enlightened master to reappear. b: we can not even blame tbc. What is the status of the Spanish colonial cartography update? Will tractors (I am a Virginia farm boy who likes tractors over tanks) reappear?
 
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Now my real comment:

- forgot Hobo has RAC, nice. Not surprising I forgot since I probably read that update in 2009/2010 financial year
- always liked WW2 armoured cars, look cool
- like the dominion politics update disguised as armoured cars update
- funny car in Australia
- need to reread Rhodesia update (and entire AAR while I am at it). Is redux project still on?
- is Harris shunned in Rhodesia to get out of way or is it a real assignment? Update does not say he will not return to RAF, he could become govern as OTL, after a major role in the war? I guess that would be a net positive for RAF, his area bombing idea was not that efficient and Bomber command a major drain?
 
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As I recalled from reading @nuclearslurpee's post: @El Pip mentioned the silliness that is a "Light Tank (Wheeled)". I might point out that the modern day Stryker MGS would adequately fill that role (which, after running into a college mate of mine while at Camp Victory in Baghdad in 2010, I was horrified to find out were crewed by tankers).
 
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Well, I find it quite likely. He kept wondering about going back to Rhodesia throughout the 20s OTL, and I can certainly see him being convinced to go there rather than stay in the RAF.
He was even offered the post in OTL in 1944, well for Southern Rhodesia anyway, and it was only his sense of duty that kept him in Bomber Command.
Given the cabinet were the ones who ordered strategic bombing of the continent, I can only imagine someone else will be called Bomber, though perhaps without quite the same amount of gusto/relish.
As always I find your glue like attachment to historical determinism fascinating. Most people who had a POD in the late 1700s would extrapolate massive changes, yet your current AAR somehow has basically WW1 still happen on time and in broadly the same way. I feel even a Stalinist might shy away from such rigidity. Is this a personal thing or is this how history is being taught these days?
I suppose the real interest is how much power does the governor general have and what might he do/planned to do if he had any thoughts on it? And this is a larger and stronger Rhodesia, yes? So I suppose London is also wondering what to do with it.
London remains unsure what to do with Rhodesia, more than a colony but less than a Dominion. Not as bad as apartheid but not as progressive as policy would prefer. The Governor General has no power if everything goes smoothly and ultimate power if a local politician goes rogue. See the King/Byng affair or indeed Hertzog's coup attempt in Butterfly, both of which had the Governor General in a key role. At the other extreme see the New Zealand Governor Generals who tended to view their term as a chance for a nice rest.


I did notice it, but only after delayed noticing of new update (for some reason forums logged me off and did not send me e-mail notification about new posts).
It is reassuring that the forum remains unreliable. Not in a good way, but in a 'fixed point in a changing world' way.
Unfortunately, while I might have mentioned to myself that it seemed odd that some high ranking dude named Harris was kicking around at the same time as the future Bomber Harris... But it's such a common name that I didn't think as much of it. I also may not have realized that Harris had emigrated from England?
I probably should have made it a bit more blatant. I do have to realise that most people do not have such details floating around in their head, because they are sensible. ;)

Yes Harris did emigrate to Rhodesia and even though he drifted back after his WW1 service he still thought of himself as Rhodesian. Quite what he thought of UDI and eventually Zimbabwe I've no idea, given his generation probably nothing good.

In keeping to traditional ways, as this AAR is slower than real time I now endeavor to comment in slower than real time. One might ask just how one can comment slower than real time while living in real time, and one might also shut up:
I look forward to seeing how this experiment works out for you.
I am sure this expectation is entirely well-founded in reality and shall not be breached shortly.


I lied.
One day I shall mention an expectation that is entirely met. The shock of the trope not being fulfilled should balance out the non-event of an expectation being correct.
Clearly such a bold and brash decision requires no excuse.
No, but it might require a defence.
Clearly it is something of the evil twin version of the IJN's brilliant idea to absorb and abolish the IJA on grounds of incompetence, at least according to that unvarnished historical truth from that one Eurasia AAR.
Plotting to abolish a rival service is something of a universal trait I've noticed.

In passing I note that the Chinese are current reigning champions of 'most contrived name for a military force' with the air arm of their fleet, which suffers under the name People's Liberation Army Naval Air Force.
I begin to understand why the Japanese conquer New Zealand in damn near every HoI3 AAR ever.
Swedish incompetence at programming AI?
For a work with as little plot as this one, this is indeed quite the unexpected plot twist.
There is always plot, it is just not anything so base or crude as obvious.
DYAEiOu.gif

While the best availability is always found from getting invaded, beating back the invaders, and then sending farmers with tractors to secure the loots, I can understand why this might not have been the most attractive option for the Dutch and other governments of this or any time.
Not least due to their chronic lack of tractors.
Why, are you in a big rush or something? :p
Always good to be a step or two in front of Kurtie's angry mob I find.
Oh, good, internal politics.
Internal Indian politics no less.
And now that we have reached the bottom of the page, I do believe it is time for another update TBC to ruin everything with a shitpost as is traditional.
Amazingly TBC found someone else to do his dirty work for him.

Also, while we are on the subject of tanks, why did nobody forward the idea of a "Lancelot" tank with a pointy stick in front?
Spookily an Australian chap called Lancelot de Mole (a magnificent name) claimed to have invented the tank before anyone else.
EDIT: Well, would you look at that? I didn't mean to steal someone's thunder; come to think of it, I missed the comment number.
We shall see if that excuse passes muster with the mob

Oh no, @J66185, you stole top of page from @El Pip! Two things, a: we have to fill the next eighteen posts with useless spam that we call meaningful commentary while we wait for our enlightened master to reappear. b: we can not even blame tbc. What is the status of the Spanish colonial cartography update? Will tractors (I am a Virginia farm boy who likes tractors over tanks) reappear?
The War of Colonial Spain's Inability to Draw Maps Properly has at last been scheduled for Winter 1937. In so called realtime that is... late 2024 ish, assuming the current majestic 10:1 real:game time ratio is maintained.

I'm not sure if there will be actual tractors, but there are at least two farming adjacent chapters plotted for autumn 1937 which may well emerge sometime next real time year.

Points may well be awarded for correctly guessing what said farming related subjects will be, at least one has been threatened already in this thread.

Now my real comment:
Huzzah!
- forgot Hobo has RAC, nice. Not surprising I forgot since I probably read that update in 2009/2010 financial year
A reminder that I should always state changes in chapters as readers will quite reasonably have forgotten details from a decade ago.
- always liked WW2 armoured cars, look cool
You are a man of rare and refined taste.
YABqQsB.gif

- like the dominion politics update disguised as armoured cars update
It's the last thing anyone would expect.
- funny car in Australia
The Antipodeans did produce some unique armoured vehicles, some were very good and some were a bit funny looking. Sadly some were the Bob Semple tank, but what can you do?
- need to reread Rhodesia update (and entire AAR while I am at it). Is redux project still on?
I've been convinced Redux is a bad idea when there is still so much to write. But the pictures should now all work as that part of the project was completed.
- is Harris shunned in Rhodesia to get out of way or is it a real assignment? Update does not say he will not return to RAF, he could become govern as OTL, after a major role in the war? I guess that would be a net positive for RAF, his area bombing idea was not that efficient and Bomber command a major drain?
I must maintain some mystery. ;) As said above Governor-General is a real job, not much direct day to day power (outside of a crisis) but a great deal of soft power and influence, Harris was very tempted and if the OTL offer had been made but 1 year later or perhaps 18 months earlier then he would have gone for it.

Area-bombing was not so much Harris' idea as the only game in town at the time, the Butt report had belatedly proved that night bombing was struggling to hit the right city let alone a target and all the technology and tactics that would fix that wouldn't emerge till late 1943. In OTL if it hadn't been Harris then it would have been someone else. That said Harris was obsessed and was very bad at considering alternatives or even obeying orders, so there would still have been huge differences with a different C-inC. No Battle of Berlin, a solid focus on the Ruhr, earlier pathfinders, more 617 Sqn type units and so on.

However all that is irrelevant as in Butterfly Lindemann is forcing Bomber Command to confront the accuracy issue much earlier and of course any future conflict will not be WW2.

As I recalled from reading @nuclearslurpee's post: @El Pip mentioned the silliness that is a "Light Tank (Wheeled)". I might point out that the modern day Stryker MGS would adequately fill that role (which, after running into a college mate of mine while at Camp Victory in Baghdad in 2010, I was horrified to find out were crewed by tankers).
My word, that must have been quite a shock to the tankers when they were told that was their new vehicle. But as you say it could do the job, though if the jobs should be done is a different question!
 
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As always I find your glue like attachment to historical determinism fascinating. Most people who had a POD in the late 1700s would extrapolate massive changes, yet your current AAR somehow has basically WW1 still happen on time and in broadly the same way. I feel even a Stalinist might shy away from such rigidity. Is this a personal thing or is this how history is being taught these days?

Moreso bizarrely committed to sticking to what paradox gives me. The set up is not so much 'OTL up till 1805/6 and then changes' moreso 'someone gently plays Victoria 2 untill the early 1900s and has therefore been railroaded with some deviations'. Thus the british are obscenely powerful, Africa is a mess, the US are much weaker than they should be, Mexico and Spain got boosted by other great powers helping them out, and yet somehow it all ended with Austria Hungary and the ottomans with the same borders, Germany unified and ready for war, and Russia huge but weak ish.

Granted there is no random independant Brittany that got created somewhere, but come to think, I never said there wasn't...
 
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As always I find your glue like attachment to historical determinism fascinating. Most people who had a POD in the late 1700s would extrapolate massive changes, yet your current AAR somehow has basically WW1 still happen on time and in broadly the same way. I feel even a Stalinist might shy away from such rigidity. Is this a personal thing or is this how history is being taught these days?
Speaking neither for TBC nor for TBC's childhood educational system: I think in many people it is rather the opposite, a reaction to the way history tends to be taught which at least to my recollection tended to be along the "great men" theoretical lines, unless you were lucky enough to make it to the AP level course and also get a halfway decent teacher. Naturally, once one becomes disillusioned in their 20s the reactionary opposite is that men are powerless in the face of deterministic factors, which if equally as naive is at least preferable to what passes for "thinking" in wehraboo circles.

Amazingly TBC found someone else to do his dirty work for him.
Score one for determinism.
 
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My word, that must have been quite a shock to the tankers when they were told that was their new vehicle. But as you say it could do the job, though if the jobs should be done is a different question!
I'm guaranteeing that the MGS was not what the Joe's wanted to be driving when they signed up, that's for sure. And, while I'm sure it could do "a" job, whether or not it did "the" job is up for debate.
 
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Speaking neither for TBC nor for TBC's childhood educational system: I think in many people it is rather the opposite, a reaction to the way history tends to be taught which at least to my recollection tended to be along the "great men" theoretical lines, unless you were lucky enough to make it to the AP level course and also get a halfway decent teacher. Naturally, once one becomes disillusioned in their 20s the reactionary opposite is that men are powerless in the face of deterministic factors, which if equally as naive is at least preferable to what passes for "thinking" in wehraboo circles.

One of the great problems of history, and esepcially alt history, is that everything is connected to everything else, at least to a point. That means you can both look on something and say it would probably happen anyway (large island nations becoming navally focused, certain locations are so suitable for human civilization that they will become settlements and population centres multiple times even if the foundations are razed etc.) But also change something and from the butterfly wing argue quite convincingly that all is now changed.

In the case of Harris, I would say that it is probable that the British would commit to strategic bombing without him, and that the head of Bomber command will be called upon to defend that decision. However, I doubt you could find such a champion of heavy bombardment and publically profess as such.

In terms of the AAR, I confess as I said in the AAR that it was to add more interest and balance to a game map based on test games, and to give the AI some chance of doing something interesting in Europe, and for the US to do something interesting at all.
 
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We shall see if that excuse passes muster with the mob
I was wondering if you might comment on my unintentional punning, but still, you have a point there.
One of the great problems of history, and esepcially alt history, is that everything is connected to everything else, at least to a point. That means you can both look on something and say it would probably happen anyway (large island nations becoming navally focused, certain locations are so suitable for human civilization that they will become settlements and population centres multiple times even if the foundations are razed etc.) But also change something and from the butterfly wing argue quite convincingly that all is now changed.
I believe we can all agree that a particular "acclaimed" anime series is seriously guilty in that regard, especially with dead-end circular logic involved. It never made sense if anyone devoted an iota of brainwork and storytelling to it. (Especially if someone recommends this of all things.)
 
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I was wondering if you might comment on my unintentional punning, but still, you have a point there.

I believe we can all agree that a particular "acclaimed" anime series is seriously guilty in that regard, especially with dead-end circular logic involved. It never made sense if anyone devoted an iota of brainwork and storytelling to it. (Especially if someone recommends this of all things.)

Quite! One can accept the foundational conceit of a world (mine being that Germany despite all things found itself losing the first world war in a similar fashion in a different world and now must deal with the consequences, superman's being here is a man who can fly) but not then go onto accept every random plot thread following thereafter (the british have a secret moonbase, superman is a pink flamingo called Jerry...or batman can breath in space).

It would be quite something if I wrote an AAR where the principle plot is Germany struggling to stay democrat, somehow succeeds (which is far from certain as you can imagine) and then Hitler ends up invading the Soviet Union anyway in 1942, despite having been either dead or a reformed architect living in Vienna for the past 5 years.
 
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Personally I hold that history is a turbulent flow, generally it will tend to go in certain ways based on largely immutable factors, but the details are unpredictable if not utterly incomprehensible as often as not, and every one in a while the whole damn stream will go off at a right angle like the water from your kitchen faucet bouncing off from a spoon head.

12-part series on turbulence and propeller shaft design when?
 
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Personally I hold that history is a turbulent flow, generally it will tend to go in certain ways based on largely immutable factors, but the details are unpredictable if not utterly incomprehensible as often as not, and every one in a while the whole damn stream will go off at a right angle like the water from your kitchen faucet bouncing off from a spoon head.

12-part series on turbulence and propeller shaft design when?

The start of the great war both supports and decries this. Of course, after the alliances were signed and the tensions grew, war might well seem inevitable, with only the details of what started it up to chance.

However, by 1914, this had actually started to run its course (as in, the two big power structures actually had nearly kept the peace) because Russia was nearing the end of its army modernisation programe and had rebuilt its military back from the Japanese disaster...and everyone knew that including the russians. They started trying to exert themselves against the british in the middle east again, pressure Japan and Germany, etc etc.

At least some in the foreign office really were thinking about and talking to the germans about detente between them to focus on the Russian threat...at which point the war though it might still have come would have been very different indeed.
 
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Oh, if people wish for a properly off the wall and butterfly intense game or AAR, I do have a small idea germinating about a shattered world CK2 game to see off the old girl properly. Every county across Europea, Africa and India independant, random or no established kingdoms or empires, start date 764AD. Let the world do what it will...

Only problem would be that it would probably end in 1399 because I doubt EUIV could port over such a different world.
 
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Moreso bizarrely committed to sticking to what paradox gives me.

Granted there is no random independant Brittany that got created somewhere, but come to think, I never said there wasn't...
These two statements are impressively in opposition. If you play the game the way Paradox intends then weird puppets and horrific border gore are basically compulsory, this might even be deliberate though one can never be sure.

Speaking neither for TBC nor for TBC's childhood educational system: I think in many people it is rather the opposite, a reaction to the way history tends to be taught which at least to my recollection tended to be along the "great men" theoretical lines, unless you were lucky enough to make it to the AP level course and also get a halfway decent teacher. Naturally, once one becomes disillusioned in their 20s the reactionary opposite is that men are powerless in the face of deterministic factors, which if equally as naive is at least preferable to what passes for "thinking" in wehraboo circles.
This seems deeply plausible so I've decided it is absolutely what happened to TBC and no amount of so-called-facts will be able to convince me otherwise.

I'm guaranteeing that the MGS was not what the Joe's wanted to be driving when they signed up, that's for sure. And, while I'm sure it could do "a" job, whether or not it did "the" job is up for debate.
This is very true. That said it is a rare bit of military kit that actually gets used for the job it was intended for, so to some extent it doesn't matter if it was any good at its intended job because it probably won't do it.

One of the great problems of history, and esepcially alt history, is that everything is connected to everything else, at least to a point.
You say problem, I say opportunity.
DYAEiOu.gif


In the case of Harris, I would say that it is probable that the British would commit to strategic bombing without him, and that the head of Bomber command will be called upon to defend that decision. However, I doubt you could find such a champion of heavy bombardment and publically profess as such.
Harris only got the job 1942 so the commitment long predates him, there were also many private champions of it. I do agree there were few who were quite so public about it, though a few years into the war and post-Blitz such things were more popular with the public as a way of striking back and a bit of revenge. Harris' For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind was pretty much in line with public opinion, as early as 1941 55% of the public were in favour of deliberately bombing German civilians with only 36% against (don't know being the balance).

I believe we can all agree that a particular "acclaimed" anime series is seriously guilty in that regard, especially with dead-end circular logic involved. It never made sense if anyone devoted an iota of brainwork and storytelling to it. (Especially if someone recommends this of all things.)
Dear lord that is terrible. I will go back to my belief that the title was a badly mangled translation and it is a series about the software writing adventures of a group of geese who code by poking at a keyboard using their bills. You may say it seems ridiculous, but I submit it is less ridiculous than the actual backstory and plot.

It would be quite something if I wrote an AAR where the principle plot is Germany struggling to stay democrat, somehow succeeds (which is far from certain as you can imagine) and then Hitler ends up invading the Soviet Union anyway in 1942, despite having been either dead or a reformed architect living in Vienna for the past 5 years.
Ah so it'll be Adolphus Schicklgruber doing all that.

Personally I hold that history is a turbulent flow, generally it will tend to go in certain ways based on largely immutable factors, but the details are unpredictable if not utterly incomprehensible as often as not, and every one in a while the whole damn stream will go off at a right angle like the water from your kitchen faucet bouncing off from a spoon head.
The start of the great war both supports and decries this. Of course, after the alliances were signed and the tensions grew, war might well seem inevitable, with only the details of what started it up to chance.

However, by 1914, this had actually started to run its course (as in, the two big power structures actually had nearly kept the peace) because Russia was nearing the end of its army modernisation programe and had rebuilt its military back from the Japanese disaster...and everyone knew that including the russians. They started trying to exert themselves against the british in the middle east again, pressure Japan and Germany, etc etc.

At least some in the foreign office really were thinking about and talking to the germans about detente between them to focus on the Russian threat...at which point the war though it might still have come would have been very different indeed.
I am coming around to the Incompetent Man of History theory myself. While 'great men' can perhaps slightly deflect the bigger deterministic path they can't produce the big deflections or overcome massive structural issues. However the incompetent man can produce such changes and throw away almost limitless advantages to produce non-deterministic outcomes. I'm thinking of figures like Nicholas II, General Gamelin, James Buchanan, Lord North and such like. Men who had greatness thrust into their hands and then dropped it on their own feet because they were useless, changing the very course of history through being really inept.

12-part series on turbulence and propeller shaft design when?
Around the same time the Duranium Legion finishes their naval conference I believe. ;)

Oh, if people wish for a properly off the wall and butterfly intense game or AAR, I do have a small idea germinating about a shattered world CK2 game to see off the old girl properly. Every county across Europea, Africa and India independant, random or no established kingdoms or empires, start date 764AD. Let the world do what it will...

Only problem would be that it would probably end in 1399 because I doubt EUIV could port over such a different world.
I doubt the CK2 AI could cope with such a world either to be honest. Which is another excellent reason to try it.
 
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These two statements are impressively in opposition. If you play the game the way Paradox intends then weird puppets and horrific border gore are basically compulsory, this might even be deliberate though one can never be sure.

Honestly, Brittany being independant like Belgium wouldn't be that border gory. At least its a solid peninsula shape with the one border. With how messed up the Low Countries will be post war, they will be lucky to get such smooth maps.

The US is also lucky you can only go so far as granting states and not single land tiles to nations, because otherwise I would make the west a lot less straight than OTL. As is, the border is actually LESS border gory than real life!

I am coming around to the Incompetent Man of History theory myself. While 'great men' can perhaps slightly deflect the bigger deterministic path they can't produce the big deflections or overcome massive structural issues. However the incompetent man can produce such changes and throw away almost limitless advantages to produce non-deterministic outcomes. I'm thinking of figures like Nicholas II, General Gamelin, James Buchanan, Lord North and such like. Men who had greatness thrust into their hands and then dropped it on their own feet because they were useless, changing the very course of history through being really inept.

It certainly is very clear that for there to be peace, there has to be quite a few powerful people working very hard to keep it that way, esepcially if everyone is in an expansionist mindset (and everyone was in the 19th century). One of the big lessons of the first half of the 20th century is, no matter what, do not have an absolute ruler of a country. Doesn't matter how talented the original guy is (or seems), it will within three leaders completely fall apart due to human stupidity, if not sooner.

I doubt the CK2 AI could cope with such a world either to be honest. Which is another excellent reason to try it.

I need to open a thread for it like I did with German democracy AAR ideas. Chiefly, it must be decided how 'off the wall' this game would be. The world collapsed into thousands of micro states. But are there also magic bears and mystical rats who speak only in riddles? Are there duck cultists and elephant monarchs with elephant castles and elephant ships?

These are genuine questions you have to ask when setting up a CK2 world. Do we want to see a bizarre and very different but somewhat explainable and comparable history of the old world? Or do we want to take the game to the very edge of sanity and push it off?
 
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This is very true. That said it is a rare bit of military kit that actually gets used for the job it was intended for, so to some extent it doesn't matter if it was any good at its intended job because it probably won't do it.
Well, when the US Army finally wakes the fuck up and says to Ukraine: well, we aren't going to give you Abrams, but we'll give you all of these stupid Strykers we have lying around, then we'll finally get to see them in proper action.
Ah so it'll be Adolphus Schicklgruber doing all that.
*Scribbles furiously on the planning document.*
I am coming around to the Incompetent Man of History theory myself. While 'great men' can perhaps slightly deflect the bigger deterministic path they can't produce the big deflections or overcome massive structural issues. However the incompetent man can produce such changes and throw away almost limitless advantages to produce non-deterministic outcomes. I'm thinking of figures like Nicholas II, General Gamelin, James Buchanan, Lord North and such like. Men who had greatness thrust into their hands and then dropped it on their own feet because they were useless, changing the very course of history through being really inept.
There are several very recent US Presidents who confirm the theory.
These are genuine questions you have to ask when setting up a CK2 world. Do we want to see a bizarre and very different but somewhat explainable and comparable history of the old world? Or do we want to take the game to the very edge of sanity and push it off?
sparta-kick.gif
 
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Honestly, Brittany being independant like Belgium wouldn't be that border gory. At least its a solid peninsula shape with the one border. With how messed up the Low Countries will be post war, they will be lucky to get such smooth maps.
They should count themselves lucky to be an independent nation post war frankly.
The US is also lucky you can only go so far as granting states and not single land tiles to nations, because otherwise I would make the west a lot less straight than OTL. As is, the border is actually LESS border gory than real life!
Booo.
I need to open a thread for it like I did with German democracy AAR ideas. Chiefly, it must be decided how 'off the wall' this game would be. The world collapsed into thousands of micro states. But are there also magic bears and mystical rats who speak only in riddles? Are there duck cultists and elephant monarchs with elephant castles and elephant ships?

These are genuine questions you have to ask when setting up a CK2 world. Do we want to see a bizarre and very different but somewhat explainable and comparable history of the old world? Or do we want to take the game to the very edge of sanity and push it off?
I've always thought if things aren't going full on bonkers you are not playing CK2 properly.

*Scribbles furiously on the planning document.*
I look forward to seeing the fruits of this.
There are several very recent US Presidents who confirm the theory.
There is evidence of it everywhere, I might have to properly write it up for publication.
Indeed.
Z3wSg01.gif
 
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It appears the next chapter is perilously close to being ready, so if someone (one being the key part) could do the decent thing and add a post we can all experience Chapter CLIV gracing the top of the next page.
 
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