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Chapter CXLII: The Low, Low Price of an Imperial Conference.
Chapter CXLII: The Low, Low Price of an Imperial Conference.

Traditionally Whitehall had a sense of mild dread about Imperial Conferences, as they tended to lead to a new set of demands from the Dominions and more compromises by their lords and masters in Westminster. The Second British Empire Economic Conference was one of the rare exceptions to this rule. While not exactly looking forward to it, the civil service believed that for once it would be their Dominion counterparts forced to make hard decisions and uncomfortable compromises. Prompted by the growing imbalances in Empire Free Trade the conference had the unenviable task of trying to keep the benefits of the current arrangement while removing the undesirable features. It was the considered opinion of the Board of Trade that while this outcome was eminently achievable, the policies that would be required would not be popular in the Dominion capitals. As it was the Dominions that had pushed for the conference, and had rejected the option of a Royal Commission to kick the issue into the long grass, there was a belief that they did not quite understand what they were asking for. While this paternal air, which doubtless often crossed over into patronising superiority, was not an attractive feature of the London civil service, events at the conference would prove it was, for once, not unjustified.

The fundamental problem was that Imperial Preference was trying to be two incompatible things at the same time. Those involved wanted utterly friction free trade between the members, whilst having the freedom to set their own 'external' tariffs and custom duties. The former was considered non-negotiable by all involved, it was a bedrock of Empire and something so fundamental that it was never even discussed and certainly not something that could be changed. The latter was at least in part the result of a very British feature of taxation policy that had been exported to the Empire; the desire to rely on indirect taxes (like customs and excise) and not raise the direct taxes (like income tax) that voters actually noticed. Indeed the children had taken the parent's lessons to an extreme and indirect taxes amounted to 75% to 80% of the total revenue of the Dominion governments. As we have also seen in the previous chapters tariffs and trade barriers were seen as vital tools to protect politically important industries, even if they weren't used to do so (or wouldn't work if they were used) no politician is ever keen to give up any power. As discussed in Chapter XCV the problems with this arrangement are entirely predictable; to bypass a high tariff in one country it was only necessary to ensure the item entered the Imperial Preference area through a low tariff member, once inside it could be moved around tariff-free to it's intended destination. While this problem had been identified at the first Imperial Economic Conference in Ottawa, it had been felt that given the large distances, the cost of shipping and the broadly similar tariffs rates it would not be a serious issue. To an extent this was correct as it still wasn't a serious economic issue but it had become a political issue due to a few high profile cases. More seriously shipping rates had become drastically cheaper as the diesel powered motor vessel started to displace the steam ship and the steady stream of reforms, tweaks and bilateral trade treaties were opening up far larger tariff differentials across the Empire that could be exploited.

2LWPKnp.jpg

The MV Delius, a refrigerated cargo liner in service with the Lamport & Holt shipping line and working the Liverpool-Buenos Aries route. Completed around the same time as the Imperial Conference began, she was symbolic of the newer generation of ships entering service and causing so many problems. The MV stood for Motor Vessel and she was powered by a pair of large six cylinder diesel engines in place of the more traditional steam turbine or reciprocating triple expansion engine. While marginally more expensive to construct than those types, a motor vessel was dramatically less expensive to run as it required fewer crew and was more fuel efficient. While their introduction into wide-scale service had been delayed by the shipbuilding lull of the Depression as trade recovered so did shipbuilding. To the annoyance of the shipping lines the far lower running costs of the MVs did not equate to larger profits, but instead lower shipping rates, these lower rates then opened up new opportunities for traders to profitably exploit the loopholes in Empire Free Trade. As was so often the way a government policy for one area was causing problems in another; the ship scrappage scheme was accelerating this trend by speeding up the replacement of old triple expansion ships with more modern MVs.

With the problem identified discussion turned to a solution, which was naturally where the arguments began. Trade theory did have an answer to the conundrum of different external tariffs while maintain internal free trade, the concept of Rules of Origin. The principle was simple enough to state, to benefit from free trade within the Empire the product had to be demonstrably produced within the Empire, however the practical problems with this 'simple idea' soon mounted up. Consider a simple steel bar, if it was made in a Scottish furnace with British coal, South African and Australian alloy metals, but Swedish iron ore, did that count as an Empire product? Was the measurement of allowable 'non-Empire' content by cost or volume? Did you consider the volume of the raw ore or the amount of material in the final product? Did the coal count towards the total? Certainly you could not make steel without it but there was precious little in the final product. Take these questions and apply them to a more complicated product, such as a lorry with hundreds of suppliers and thousands of components, and the scale of the problem should be clear. More seriously for those at the Conference this approach would impact on intra-Empire trade, forcing firms to jump through bureaucratic hoops to 'prove' their products were indeed eligible to be shipped tariff-free within the Empire. Essentially if it did not inconvenience exporters then the rules would be impossible to enforce and so ineffective. Thus this approach was soon ruled out and the conference was forced to turn to the other option, the one the Board of Trade civil servants had predicted would cause considerable consternation.

The other solution was to eliminate the opportunities to exploit the system by harmonising tariffs. There were a range of ways to do this, from full blown Customs Union though to just keeping tariffs within a certain range so there were no large differentials to exploit. While this seemed harmless enough the implications were far reaching, as we have seen the income from tariffs was significant for all the governments at the Conference so any changes would require budgets to be re-balanced. Trade policy was to a large extent also foreign policy and while few in the Dominions wished to deviate from the main thrust of British policy they had become accustomed to a degree of latitude. All of the Dominions had negotiated their own trade deals, from small bi-lateral affairs through to the sprawling mess of the Southern African Customs Union, and these would all have to be co-ordinated and perhaps re-negotiated. Those in favour of the scheme pointed out that improved co-ordination would have significant advantages beyond just closing loop-holes in the existing system of Empire Free Trade. The example given was Japan, which had deliberately been adopting a policy of 'picking off' the Dominions one at a time, in the early 30s she had forced trade concessions from Canada and was now working on Australia. While Australia had responded tit-for-tat with tariffs on key Japanese trade items, her big problem was a lack of Imperial co-ordination. To ramp up pressure Japanese importers had started substituting Australian wool for woolen imports from South Africa, the UK and New Zealand. If the rest of the Empire would agree not to co-operate with such efforts the Australian negotiating position would be immeasurably enhanced and Canberra could get a far more favourable treaty. The Australian delegation was quick to realise that the 'price' of this support would be far less latitude in the negotiations, or in the case of a full Imperial Customs Union, having to negotiate as part of the Empire and not on their own account.

vMMFuaj.jpg

The new Chelsea Bridge over the River Thames under construction in the spring of 1937. A true product of Empire it was built from Newfoundland iron ore, South African chromium, Rhodesian copper, Douglas Fir from British Columbia and asphalt from Trinidad, in addition to Cornish granite and Yorkshire coal. While this made it a wonderful photo opportunity for the Conference attendees, the bridge would be officially opened by half a dozen Prime Ministers simultaneously, it was also a symbol of the economic challenges of Empire. The structure could have been constructed with Swedish iron ore, Turkish chromium, Chilean copper, pine from the Baltic and Iraqi asphalt. For a variety of reasons, from commercial to strategic, trade with those nations was also important and had to be maintained, not least because there were many products where the Empire alone could not supply the required quantities.

This in the end was the crux of the matter, the political dimension of the change. The budgetary impacts could be managed and the foreign policy concerns were in practice minimal, but symbolically it would be hugely significant; the Dominions returning a power to the Empire. Indeed, given Britain's disproportionate economic and industrial weight and the massive advantage the City of London's financial firepower gave, it would be returning power mostly to London. As the dilemma was assessed as unsolvable, or at least not solvable in a palatable manner, the solution was a traditional bodged compromise. The attendees agreed to close the largest loop holes to solve the immediate problems and to setup an Imperial Trade Council to "co-ordinate" tariffs with an aim to harmonising them at some unspecified point in the future. The Council was also to review and advise on the Imperial consequences of tariffs and treaties and all parties agreed to consult with the Council before signing new deals or significantly revising duties. Quite what would happen if the advice of the Council was ignored was left unsaid, though in practice it was unlikely to matter; Britain and the Dominions were to have a single representative each and all decisions were to be unanimous, a perfect recipe for ensuring nothing actually got decided (and for provoking yet another mild row about quite what Rhodesia was). Yet from this unpromising start something significant would develop. The Council would need a permanent staff, to carry out the reviews and assess what the impacts of any trade treaty would be, there was also a need for a secretariat to support the representatives, or that at least was the firm opinion of the Whitehall Civil Servants that ended up dominating the body. As noted above there were foreign policy and defence implications in any trade deal, so the Council developed links with the Committee of Imperial Defence, a body already being roused from it's slumber by the challenges of the Wellington Project. While the Council would continue to mostly fail at it's main task of harmonising tariffs and reviewing trade treaties, or rather that would happen despite what the council did not because of it, it soon became the default clearing house for a wide range of Imperial matters as it had the staff and Dominion representatives who actually turned up and paid attention. So much so that by the time it finally dropped the 'Trade' from it's title in the early 1940s that was more a long delayed recognition of reality than an ambitious power grab.

With the precedent of policy fudges before them, it is perhaps hardly surprising that the other major decision facing the conference was also fudged. Though it is perhaps unfair to say the decision faced the conference when it in fact only really faced one attendee; Canada. The gold standard had been good for Canada, with her currency effectively pegged to both the US Dollar and Sterling (as both were tied to gold) and with close ties to the US economy and a full member of the Sterling Area Ottawa believed it had the best of both worlds. The early 30s had seen that advantageous position shattered, as the Smoot-Hawley tariffs closed off the US and Britain had begun Imperial Preference in reaction. The British decision depart the gold standard and devalue was another blow and one that forced a decision, while the rest of the Empire had followed London the Canadians had not. While Canada had left the Gold Standard, no longer was the Canadian dollar exchangeable or officially backed by bullion, she had not devalued. The intervening years had not been kind, the continued failure of the US to devalue or offer any meaningful talks on trade and tariffs had hurt the economy badly. It was noted that while the US State Department was very keen for other people to drop their tariffs, but silent on what measures the US would take to lower her own. While Canadian Prime Minister Mackenzie King remained keen on free trade, and trade with America specifically, by the summer of 1937 he had been forced to concede this was unlikely to happen. The persistent failure of the US to reciprocate Canadian approaches, or even to consider their interests, had finally worn him down, hence his acquiescence to the Imperial Trade Council. This also explains why he had finally given in to the steady lobbying from business, the opposition parties and the banks to stop waiting for the US to devalue and get it over and done with. Thus during the conference the devaluation of the Canadian Dollar was announced, it would drop 20% compared to it's Gold Standard value and be stabilised at it's old level with Sterling. In this endeavour the Bank of Canada would receive the full support of the Bank of England and the British Treasury, not to mention it's own healthy gold reserves. After a degree of turbulence this stabilisation was achieved and the benefits began to flow into the Canadian economy, alongside the angry telegrams from the US government. In light of the events of the Autumn the devaluation is often somewhat overlooked, it was to an extent over-taken by developments elsewhere. Yet it remains worthy of note as one of the first clear, if reluctant, steps towards London and away from Washington that Canada took. That it was Prime Minister Mackenzie King that took it makes it all the more noteworthy.

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Notes:
Australian-Japanese trade and relations were complex at best and there was a surprising lack of Imperial co-ordination on these things. I am to an extent glossing over some of the issues, it was sensitive and the Imperial Trade Council (or something similar) was perhaps not the most likely outcome even after all the changes in Butterfly. But it was possible so I'm going with it.

There absolutely was a need for something to be doing Imperial co-ordination, it was noted at the time, but nothing much happened. The Dominion Office was notionally responsible, but tended to mostly worry about Ireland and get dragged into Colonial matters like Palestine. The Committee for Imperial Defence had notionally Dominion representatives on it, but they mostly never turned up because they didn't really care about defence (that was Britain's job). Trade and tariffs however, they do care about so will turn up, something which is made easier by Imperial Airways pulling their finger out on the air route to Australia. My reasoning is that natural Whitehall empire building will kick in and the Council will attract power and jobs on the strength of actually being a meaningful link between London and the Dominions.

The Wellington Project is of course the plans to build the Vickers Wellington in Australia and Canada and adapt it to use the Rolls Royce Merlins that Australia is building for it's Hurricanes (which probably need a moniker. If Canada is building Snow Hurricanes then Australia must have xxxx Hurricanes). In any event this means the RAAF and RCAF liaison officers are being kept busy poking the Air Ministry, Vickers and Rolls-Royce about progress, while those parties keep referring them back to the Committee on Imperial Defence just to be left alone.

I've glossed over much of Canada's economic adventures (like the fact the Bank of Canada was only founded in 1935,the really close relationships between the new Bank and the Bank of England and the ongoing gold earmarking schemes) but they are not really relevant. What is relevant is that in OTL Canada stayed pegged to the dollar, but here the US still has not devalued and it is hurting. So after a change in President has not changed things even the arch US-ophile Mackenzie King had had to admit reality, hence devaluing down to match Sterling and trying to co-ordinate trade with London and not Washington. OTL of course the mildly deranged Cordell Hull was at the US State Department preaching free trade (for everyone else, not the US obviously) and his crazy theory that if only Hitler could get slightly better trade terms he would become a peaceful and normal politician.

To answer the questions no-one asked. Ireland was invited but didn't turn up, because Dev loved hacking at his nose to spite his face. Hence London looks reasonable to the other Dominions for making the effort, but no-one has to actually think about Ireland. Rhodesia did get invited, even to the OTL 1937 Imperial Conference, because it's status is wilfully weird and doubtless will remain so.
 
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Trade theory did have an answer to the conundrum of different external tariffs while maintain internal free trade, the concept of Rules of Origin. The principle was simple enough to state, to benefit from free trade within the Empire the product had to be demonstrably produced within the Empire, however the practical problems with this 'simple idea' soon mounted up. Consider a simple steel bar, if it was made in a Scottish furnace with British coal, South African and Australian alloy metals, but Swedish iron ore, did that count as an Empire product?

A big wheeze in the British food market, I understand. So much of our food which is labelled "British" is in fact only packed or processed here.

his crazy theory that if only Hitler could get slightly better trade terms he would become a peaceful and normal politician.

The trope of economic grievances taken to its absurd logical conclusion, I suppose.
 
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The Wellington Project is of course the plans to build the Vickers Wellington in Australia and Canada and adapt it to use the Rolls Royce Merlins that Australia is building for it's Hurricanes (which probably need a moniker. If Canada is building Snow Hurricanes then Australia must have xxxx Hurricanes). In any event this means the RAAF and RCAF liaison officers are being kept busy poking the Air Ministry, Vickers and Rolls-Royce about progress, while those parties keep referring them back to the Committee on Imperial Defence just to be left alone.
Either they need to call them Reef Hurricanes or they need to alter it to the more geographically appropriate "Typhoons," as "Hurricane" is an Atlantic/Eastern Pacific thing. Or, if that name is going to stay with the aircraft so designated, "Cyclone" since the RAF never had one named that.

If we insist upon following something like the Snow/Sandspeeder example of Star Wars fame, clearly Fire Hurricane would probably be suitable.
 
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Magnificent update.

Imperial Trade Council sounds like the beginnings of EU - be given some moderate powers about one thing, but slowly wrestle control regarding many others. I know you don't like EU but Imperial integration in similar scale would surely be nice.
 
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On Mussolini: I ended up talking about fascist Italian architecture (and over-compensation) in my uni interview. Was not where I thought the interview would go, but I suppose it did a job for me…

On of the best modules I ever took was on the development of high rise buildings. A fascinating subject.

On Hitler: one of my architecture anxiety dreams once involved being trapped in the dome of the Volkshalle. In case you need any proof of the horrible psychological toll architecture school has on a person.

The asylum has wings for architects. Next to economists. And alt-historians.


Edit: having read the update and just finished reading EU free movement of trade law, it is remarkable how similar the issues are. I doubt the same solutions will be reached TTL, but still, bears thinking about
 
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A big wheeze in the British food market, I understand. So much of our food which is labelled "British" is in fact only packed or processed here.
It could be worse, a brief look at the wikipedia page for food scandals will put you off eating... well anywhere really. Not least Germany which seems to have far more than it's fair share of weird contaminations, not as bad as China (but then who is?) but surprisingly poor nonetheless.

The trope of economic grievances taken to its absurd logical conclusion, I suppose.
It was all a bit strange. He seemed convinced trade was vital to securing peace, but equally convinced everyone else should make huge sacrifices to achieve this outcome and the US should conceded basically nothing. You can see why he did, looking our for US interests was his job, but he then got all surprised and upset no-one rushed to sign the deals. His opening bid to Britain was "You will demolish Imperial Preference, open all your markets to US agricultural exports tariff free and in exchange we will slightly drop our tariffs on some textile imports" and he was apparently surprised they said no. Setting a strong opening position is a legitimate bargaining tactic, but that was just madness, all it did was convince London that there was no point taking him seriously on trade.

Either they need to call them Reef Hurricanes or they need to alter it to the more geographically appropriate "Typhoons," as "Hurricane" is an Atlantic/Eastern Pacific thing. Or, if that name is going to stay with the aircraft so designated, "Cyclone" since the RAF never had one named that.

If we insist upon following something like the Snow/Sandspeeder example of Star Wars fame, clearly Fire Hurricane would probably be suitable.
Hawker are saving up the storm names for future aircraft but Cyclone is an interesting one they wouldn't want/use. If CAC end up making enough changes to the Hurricane for it to become a 'new' aircraft then it would certainly be a good name.

Having though about it the Snow Hurricane makes sense, because it is getting a bit of winterisation and a few tweaks to make it work better in very cold conditions, but the Australian ones probably won't get deliberately changed. The standard Hurricanes got desertised (in OTL and in Butterfly) and will be deployed to Singapore, so if they can cope with those two locations they can probably cope with most of what Australia throws at them. I fear it will end up like the OTL Canadian production, kicking up the mark number so there is no overlap but keeping the same name.

Magnificent update.
Glad you liked it. :)

The asylum has wings for architects. Next to economists. And alt-historians.
No doubt designed by Boullée, Ledoux or Lequeu or some such person. Or maybe De la Bretonne…
I am unsure who was more deranged. De la Bretonne or the person writing about him. I thought De la Bretonne was going to walk it, because he was quite clearly not right in the head, but then I read "At work in modern biopolitics there is always the modulation of necropolitical techniques," and realised the author of that essay had a strong claim as well.

In comparison a dream about being trapped in the Volkshalle seems to be getting off lightly.

Imperial Trade Council sounds like the beginnings of EU - be given some moderate powers about one thing, but slowly wrestle control regarding many others. I know you don't like EU but Imperial integration in similar scale would surely be nice.
Edit: having read the update and just finished reading EU free movement of trade law, it is remarkable how similar the issues are. I doubt the same solutions will be reached TTL, but still, bears thinking about
There are a great many parallels and it cannot be helped, so let it be discussed. I shall attempt to be reasonable and generous about things, but no promises are made.

The modern 'ever closer union' EU probably maps best to the idea of Imperial Federation, and as we've discussed before it's far too late for that sort of thing. The Dominions do not want to cede power back to London, if nothing else the politicians like the powers they have and so do the local populations. If you want an Imperial Federation, you need to start changing things pre-WW1 and ideally as far back as the 19th Century to have a chance (as covered in BigBadBobs Vick 2 AAR). T

What is possible is something like the earlier incarnation of the EU, the EEC, with a dash of NATO mixed in. So an Empire Free Trade Area and the defence arrangements getting formalised, maybe the Imperial General Staff actually becoming a bit more Imperial (which will be a shock to some). Certainly Butterfly has started the trend towards defence procurement becoming more Imperial, or staying Imperial anyway, the drift started in the mid 30s and that has been stopped. The Wellington Project will set trends, not trends the Air Ministry will like but that cannot be helped as it is for the long term good.

While there are parallels it is far from a perfect match, the 1930s Empire is far more integrated in places and far less in others. Britain and the Dominions can see the value of getting trade and defence sorted and co-ordinated, they already have a common foreign policy (it's British policy and that will become more of an issue as time goes on), legally everyone is Common Law so no fights about judges and there are high levels of economic integration (a level of capital market union the EU can only dream of). Overall it's more about preserving what is already there and not trying to build an ever closer union (openly and by stealth), different aims mean the institutions that develop will also be different.
 
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The long awaited conference update! I'm glad to see the Canadians are finally being prised away from the Yanks, I'm a little disappointed not to see full empire tariff harmonisation but I suppose you had to stay somewhat realistic.

As an aside the Chelsea Bridge looks very grand in that picture, I can't quite put my finger on what sets it apart from other bridges but it does.
 
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As an aside the Chelsea Bridge looks very grand in that picture, I can't quite put my finger on what sets it apart from other bridges but it does.

So grand, in fact, that I initially assumed Pip had used some authorial licence to give the Thames a nice new crossing. I must have seen it in real life at some point, but it obviously didn't register enough for me to have it in mind here for some reason. Possibly owing to the fact that it is around the Vauxhall-Nine Elms–Battersea development area, which has always struck me as particularly soulless.

Will have to go and give it a look whenever I'm next in London. The red and blue colour scheme is all very jolly.
 
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Not least Germany which seems to have far more than it's fair share of weird contaminations

Austrian wine poisoning.

"At work in modern biopolitics there is always the modulation of necropolitical techniques,"

Um...right. New AAR prompt. What that just said.

There are a great many parallels and it cannot be helped, so let it be discussed.

Groovy.

I shall attempt to be reasonable and generous about things, but no promises are made.

Based on previous behaviour, the sticking point will be something about a closer and more perfect union, openly and 'by stealth'.

The modern 'ever closer union' EU probably maps best to the idea of Imperial Federation

Well yes, but the free movement of goods, people and services is an idea older than the EU and remains the main 'point' of the whole thing. Almost everything up until about 1997 was economical in focus, including the soft core work discrimination stuff. Its only in the last 2p years that the ECJ was given the remit to properly push for a more equal society in general.

If you want an Imperial Federation, you need to start changing things pre-WW1 and ideally as far back as the 19th Century to have a chance (as covered in BigBadBobs Vick 2 AAR). T

Even then, he finds problems with starting that late. South Africa has already been ruined and Rhodesia exists.

What is possible is something like the earlier incarnation of the EU, the EEC, with a dash of NATO mixed in.

Free movements, mutual defence initiatives probably leading to a shared overarching armed forces service of some kind, commonwealth wide standards boards for various things and the formation of a higher court that all participants eventually inevitably answer to.

Basically a super charged commonwealth as in OTL, but much more rigorous interference on members by other members and the organisation overall.

So an Empire Free Trade Area

That negotiates trade deals as one body? That would be very powerful and influential, especially if the EEC comes about TTL as well. Would be pretty good for Europe overall.

and the defence arrangements getting formalised, maybe the Imperial General Staff actually becoming a bit more Imperial (which will be a shock to some).

I suspect that this will be the slowest and least enthusiastic to start. However, a cold war type situation might alter things. In a world where the bomb, cruise missles and super advanced vehicles are the future of warfare, international designing and building projects tended to get done a lot more than ever imagined prior. I suspect this hypothetical commonwealth ends up sharing airforces and navies, as its really the only way they'll manage to have a force that could match potential threats given the expense and complexity of the things. Armed forces on the ground I'm not too sure of, but when mechanisation becomes widespread, simple logistics would suggest having everyone use the same base designs makes sense.

The Wellington Project will set trends, not trends the Air Ministry will like but that cannot be helped as it is for the long term good.

Civil projects too. Concord, space travel etc.

legally everyone is Common Law so no fights about judges and there are high levels of economic integration (a level of capital market union the EU can only dream of).

Um...Africa might be a problem, but if we'rej ust thinking dominions, yes.

Overall it's more about preserving what is already there and not trying to build an ever closer union (openly and by stealth), different aims mean the institutions that develop will also be different.

Bingo.

Yeah, I think they could manage such a thing. However, free movement of goods and services inevitably leads to free movement of people. And free movement of people inevitable will lead to calls to ordain the rights of all citizens everywhere. Which once granted, opens the door to all the modern EU stuff.
 
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The long awaited conference update! I'm glad to see the Canadians are finally being prised away from the Yanks, I'm a little disappointed not to see full empire tariff harmonisation but I suppose you had to stay somewhat realistic.
I'm pushing it to get this to be honest. The Japanese 'pick them off one at a time' trade plan was historic and very little was done about it, I think a mix of British distraction and Dominion pride at wanting to solve their own (minor) problem and not run off to London for help.

As an aside the Chelsea Bridge looks very grand in that picture, I can't quite put my finger on what sets it apart from other bridges but it does.
So grand, in fact, that I initially assumed Pip had used some authorial licence to give the Thames a nice new crossing. I must have seen it in real life at some point, but it obviously didn't register enough for me to have it in mind here for some reason. Possibly owing to the fact that it is around the Vauxhall-Nine Elms–Battersea development area, which has always struck me as particularly soulless.

Will have to go and give it a look whenever I'm next in London. The red and blue colour scheme is all very jolly.
As you note it was a real bridge, the Ministry of Transport did insist it was made using only 'Empire' products and it even got opened during the OTL 1937 Imperial Conference by McKenzie King of all people.

You are not alone in appreciating it's looks, it was commended by the Royal Fine Art Commission for it's 'restrained simplicity'. The thinking had been that with Battersea Power Station nearby it was less important what it looked like so it had been simpler than it's rather ornate Victorian predecessor. Sometime less is more and a simple thing done well can still be handsome.

Based on previous behaviour, the sticking point will be something about a closer and more perfect union, openly and 'by stealth'.
I'm not a big fan of that aim it is true, though I concede there was absolutely nothing stealthy about the objectives. All the founders was very clear from the start about the final destination.

Well yes, but the free movement of goods, people and services is an idea older than the EU and remains the main 'point' of the whole thing. Almost everything up until about 1997 was economical in focus, including the soft core work discrimination stuff. Its only in the last 2p years that the ECJ was given the remit to properly push for a more equal society in general.
Last line is also a problem I have. More equal society, fine if you must (but no enforced equality of outcome), but imposing it through judgical activism is a relentlessly terrible idea. Courts should not be 'pushing' for anything.

Free movements, mutual defence initiatives probably leading to a shared overarching armed forces service of some kind, commonwealth wide standards boards for various things and the formation of a higher court that all participants eventually inevitably answer to.

Basically a super charged commonwealth as in OTL, but much more rigorous interference on members by other members and the organisation overall.
Milder than that I think. There is absolutely no desire to rigorously interfere with other members, that's a Euro fetish not a Dominion thing. On the legal side the Privy Council probably ends up as the ultimate appeal court, the monarch can appoint a few Dominion types to make it representative. But being made up of Privy Councillors it will be far more aware of the diplomatic and political issues so should very rarely get involved and steer clear of judicial activism, which is always a good thing.

That negotiates trade deals as one body? That would be very powerful and influential, especially if the EEC comes about TTL as well. Would be pretty good for Europe overall.
I think it was in Crossfires that I suggested having Monnet killed off by a Czech built Ju-87 Stuka, piloted by an ex-Austrian pilot with a rear gunner from the Free City of Danzig. Just for the giggles of having him killed by the "European integration" he so loved.

I've not really got as far as thinking in detail about post-war Europe, but the 'big war' will be incredibly different so the post-war will also be different. Not sure an EEC is on the cards, but it will be a very long time before I have to even start working that out.

I suspect that this will be the slowest and least enthusiastic to start. However, a cold war type situation might alter things. In a world where the bomb, cruise missles and super advanced vehicles are the future of warfare, international designing and building projects tended to get done a lot more than ever imagined prior. I suspect this hypothetical commonwealth ends up sharing airforces and navies, as its really the only way they'll manage to have a force that could match potential threats given the expense and complexity of the things. Armed forces on the ground I'm not too sure of, but when mechanisation becomes widespread, simple logistics would suggest having everyone use the same base designs makes sense.
At this point the RNZN doesn't exist, the head of the RAN is an 'on loan' British RN officer as is much of the staff, the RCN has only just appointed a Canadian and again is full of 'on loan' RN officers. Broadly similar position in the air, lots of RAF officers in the Air Staffs and command positions of the Dominion air forces. Land forces are a bit more localised and probably do need a bit more co-ordination, but even then there is still a lot of shared equipment and procurement (the Canadian experience with the disastrous Ross Rifle during WW1 is often brought up to highlight why this is so)

The aim is not to promote integration, the Empire (mostly) has that, it is to stop divergence occurring and remove the reasons for the Dominions to look elsewhere. It is a different sort of problem.

Civil projects too. Concord, space travel etc.
We shall be seeing more of EAMS and Australia is already planning how to turn some of their new Wellington bombers into civilian transport aircraft. They were amazingly ambitious about such things and they will have much greater success with this in Butterfly.

Um...Africa might be a problem, but if we'rej ust thinking dominions, yes.
I'm reflecting the thinking of the time, as in everyone just sort of ignored Africa. The Imperial economy has picked up, the last 'free' non-colonial country in Africa was almost conquered by Italy and is now a British puppet and it is clear the Imperial Lion has teeth. The indepedence movements in Africa haven't gone away, but it is not a good time for them.


Yeah, I think they could manage such a thing. However, free movement of goods and services inevitably leads to free movement of people. And free movement of people inevitable will lead to calls to ordain the rights of all citizens everywhere. Which once granted, opens the door to all the modern EU stuff.
Your mistake is to try and ram this into the European perspective. At this point there already is free movement in the Empire for British subjects and anyone "born within His Majesty's dominions and allegiance" is a British subject. The passports issued by the Australian government say "British Passport" on the front at this point and did until the 60s in OTL, it was a very different world.

When travel gets cheap this could be a problem, particularly depending on how de-colonisation happens (because that will happen) and if the economy is strong making it more attractive to move to the UK. But if the welfare state gets designed as a time-served/contributory system then that should head off most of the problems and maybe even make it a slightly less contentious issue domestically (though I doubt it).

On rights things are also different, this is not the problem of trying to mesh the proper Common Law with the car-crash that is the French legal system and various other horrors. Dominion Laws have not deviated that much and you can still appeal to the Privy Council in any of the Dominions if you insist.

There will undoubtedly be a bit of tension about this but it is a different problem to have and fundamentally there is no desire to go around nosing into other countries internal matters. If you don't want an ever perfect closer union, and there are no massive internal CAP/Structural Funds/transfers of money, you can let more things slide.
 
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I'm not a big fan of that aim it is true, though I concede there was absolutely nothing stealthy about the objectives. All the founders was very clear from the start about the final destination.

This is true. And we joined in the 70s, when politicians and civil servants were still capable of reading something and then thinking about implications. Having read the original treaties, which are gunning for free movement of all things with exceptions, backed up by a higher European Court, it's pretty obvious that if you did sign up, you were in essence giving some of your sovereignty away in exchange for membership. That was rather the point of the whole experiment. You don't even have to have known what the founders were saying, the black and white law in the treaty says that. Very disingenuous to argue that the British government of the time did not know what they were signing, and that the EU expanded powers by stealth.

Last line is also a problem I have. More equal society, fine if you must (but no enforced equality of outcome), but imposing it through judgical activism is a relentlessly terrible idea. Courts should not be 'pushing' for anything.

To confirm, they require national courts to interpret the national law as close to the relevant EU law as possible (same as ECHR) and to ask them if they aren't sure. 'Pushing' post the Amsterdam treaty just means they are allowed to consider all forms of workplace discrimination, not just workplace sexism and racism. Which is fair enough.

On the legal side the Privy Council probably ends up as the ultimate appeal court, the monarch can appoint a few Dominion types to make it representative. But being made up of Privy Councillors it will be far more aware of the diplomatic and political issues so should very rarely get involved and steer clear of judicial activism, which is always a good thing.

Seems a bit too far into the British government's pocket to be accepted forever. Much like the House of Lords being the final appeal court, eventually someone will try to separate it, even if it's quite superficial (supreme court is pretty much exactly the same as the house of Lords, with the same people and powers, just across the road from the House...).

I've not really got as far as thinking in detail about post-war Europe, but the 'big war' will be incredibly different so the post-war will also be different. Not sure an EEC is on the cards, but it will be a very long time before I have to even start working that out.

Well something MUST be done about France and Germany, I think the world recognises that. Something will be done, either self imposed or forced. If forced, much more likely to be terrible and eventually got out of. So an EEC between Germany, France and Italy is still probably on the cards, and if they're in, the low countries sort of have to be in too. But that could be the extent of it, for many many years at least. Maybe instead of OTL, we'll see more regional economic communities residing next to each other rather than OTL existing sort of underneath the EU. So Scandinavia does its own thing, western Europe has its EEC (iberia may or may not come in later) and everyone sort of tries to get the balakns to do their own thing but it never really works. The lesson learned is to never let them into the EEC etc.

The aim is not to promote integration, the Empire (mostly) has that, it is to stop divergence occurring and remove the reasons for the Dominions to look elsewhere. It is a different sort of problem.

In that case a commonwealth wide military seems more likely, at very least in terms of nukes, submarines and most naval stuff (maybe each country has individual boats built for requirements like river patrols, interior lakes and sea projection...so basically destroyers and smaller), and probably some kind of unified Air force R&D, building and training thing if not command structure. Anything motorised on land will probably be commonwealth projects rather than home grown stuff too. Means the arms market will be huge in the commonwealth, as the buyer is massive and wealthy, and won't buy amercian.

Wonder where Ireland will eventually fall under this and the other systems. Economcially, it would make sense for them to try and get in. But combined military stuff like the above would be potlcially impossible if the Troubles are anything near OTL in intensity.

But if the welfare state gets designed as a time-served/contributory system

Kinda opens the door to everyone who served kn the Indian army during the war.
 
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It's definitely an interesting idea to have the British Empire survive in a more unified fashion than the Commonwealth we have TTL. The economic pivot away from the US by Canada is entirely the US's fault... The Imperial 'Trade' Council is such a clever tool to keep the Dominions motivated to show up to the table. I'm not sure they would have all agreed to such an arrangement, but it does seem somewhat plausible, and if it keeps the Empire together, I'm on board.

I agree with @DensleyBlair about that bridge. It's functional yet elegant, the best of both worlds. I have luckily been spared the horrifying Volkshalle dreams. Maybe I jinxed it and it's going to happen tonight? I surely hope not.
 
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Canada needs to be invaded, his inhabitants persuaded to move to South Africa (not too cold winters there) and the country resettled again, this time without Frenchies.
 
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To confirm, they require national courts to interpret the national law as close to the relevant EU law as possible (same as ECHR) and to ask them if they aren't sure. 'Pushing' post the Amsterdam treaty just means they are allowed to consider all forms of workplace discrimination, not just workplace sexism and racism.
That is a very rose-tinted view of EU jurisprudence you have there. But I would expect nothing less from you. ;)

(supreme court is pretty much exactly the same as the house of Lords, with the same people and powers, just across the road from the House...).
It really isn't. I am fairly certain Le Jones will agree with me on this one, the name change and moving out of the Palace of Westminster has, over the years changed the attitude of the judges. Even the Supreme Court judges admit that, for instance they discuss the lack of communication between politicians and judges that has occurred since the move. Naturally they phrase it as "better understanding required" (i.e. politicians should just shut up and back them regardless) while never considering that possibility that it is the judges who are lacking in understanding. Plus the whole "People actually know who the judges are" issue, which is never a good sign.

It's not as bad as the US Supreme Court, but I fear we are headed that way.

Well something MUST be done about France and Germany, I think the world recognises that. Something will be done, either self imposed or forced. If forced, much more likely to be terrible and eventually got out of. So an EEC between Germany, France and Italy is still probably on the cards, and if they're in, the low countries sort of have to be in too. But that could be the extent of it, for many many years at least. Maybe instead of OTL, we'll see more regional economic communities residing next to each other rather than OTL existing sort of underneath the EU. So Scandinavia does its own thing, western Europe has its EEC (iberia may or may not come in later) and everyone sort of tries to get the balakns to do their own thing but it never really works. The lesson learned is to never let them into the EEC etc.
The historical determinism is strong in you and it will be your undoing, because I really don't believe in it and have no particular desire to bend things so they end up looking like what happened in OTL.

In that case a commonwealth wide military seems more likely, at very least in terms of nukes, submarines and most naval stuff (maybe each country has individual boats built for requirements like river patrols, interior lakes and sea projection...so basically destroyers and smaller), and probably some kind of unified Air force R&D, building and training thing if not command structure. Anything motorised on land will probably be commonwealth projects rather than home grown stuff too. Means the arms market will be huge in the commonwealth, as the buyer is massive and wealthy, and won't buy amercian.
All this stuff exists, it doesn't need to be recreated. For instance the Commonwealth Air Training Plan (and existing RAF / RAAF / RCAF plans) saw the Dominion air forces as a mostly air crew for RAF squadrons, because the Dominion governments couldn't/didn't equip large air force squadrons. A few squadrons might get badged up RCAF / RAAF or whatever, but in most ways that count they are RAF squadrons.

On the nukes, not sure. None of the Dominions will (can) commit enough resources to have a decent claim on them, nor were particularly desparate to have them OTL. Sheltering under the British nuclear shield, yeah sure, but the desire for the costs and commitment of their own indepedent deterrent? Can't see it myself. At most maybe a dual key system like the Yanks used for NATO deployed nukes in Germany, Italy, Turkey, etc.

Wonder where Ireland will eventually fall under this and the other systems. Economcially, it would make sense for them to try and get in. But combined military stuff like the above would be potlcially impossible if the Troubles are anything near OTL in intensity.
The economic stuff would be politically impossible for De Valera, doesn't matter how advantageous it is he was nothing if not catastrophically petty regardless of cost or consequence. (See the whole signing the book of condolence for Hitlers death thing). Given he is even more bitter than usual because his constitutional shenanigans didn't get passed, he is not in the mood to make any concessions. Sadly he is not up against Nev Chamberlain so Britain is not just going to roll over either. It will get worse before it gets better.

Kinda opens the door to everyone who served kn the Indian army during the war.
They are entirely welcome to claim what they can from the Raj, or lets be honest whatever succeeds it. The British Indian Army was a Raj affair, the British Army in India was the UK bit that had the Brits in (and some Gurkhas, but who is going to argue with them?)

It's definitely an interesting idea to have the British Empire survive in a more unified fashion than the Commonwealth we have TTL. The economic pivot away from the US by Canada is entirely the US's fault... The Imperial 'Trade' Council is such a clever tool to keep the Dominions motivated to show up to the table. I'm not sure they would have all agreed to such an arrangement, but it does seem somewhat plausible, and if it keeps the Empire together, I'm on board.
Australia and New Zealand probably would have, the trade fights with Japan were entirely OTL, but would be keen to keep it at Trade and Defence, at least initially. South Africa under Hertzog never would have agreed, but as Smuts has taken power and he is much more 'internationalist' (big League of Nations and UN fan, so a Commonwealth is right up his street) even if he has to be cautious and make it very clear no interference in domestic affairs. Canada would have been the big hold out, but as you say the US has forced them into it to an extent.

It is not the 100% most likely outcome but I think in this different world it is possible. Giving Italy a damn good kicking has made everyone in the Empire a bit more confident and a bit more assertive, reminded them of their strengths and what they can do when they pull their finger out. That I think is the biggest change and the one I'm most interested in exploring.

I agree with @DensleyBlair about that bridge. It's functional yet elegant, the best of both worlds. I have luckily been spared the horrifying Volkshalle dreams. Maybe I jinxed it and it's going to happen tonight? I surely hope not.
Fingers crossed you are spared a bad Volkshalle dream, though I confess the structure itself does seem interesting. I don't know if you can separate a structure from it's creators, it is at least as much a valid debate as to whether you can separate the music from the musician who composed it and that is far from clear cut.

Canada needs to be invaded, his inhabitants persuaded to move to South Africa (not too cold winters there) and the country resettled again, this time without Frenchies.
Just the sort of bold and innovative thinking I have come to expect and appreciate from you Kurtie. If there are any two groups who deserve to be forced to live with each other it is French Canadians and South African Boers, so this seems an excellent plan.
 
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Fingers crossed you are spared a bad Volkshalle dream

Volkshalle Dream absolutely sounds like a New Romantic band.
 
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That is a very rose-tinted view of EU jurisprudence you have there. But I would expect nothing less from you. ;)

I will continue to quote textbook, until the exam is over.

The historical determinism is strong in you and it will be your undoing, because I really don't believe in it and have no particular desire to bend things so they end up looking like what happened in OTL.

Another solution for Germany and France? Impossible!

I'm more interested in what happens to India and Rhodesia actually.
 
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Just the sort of bold and innovative thinking I have come to expect and appreciate from you Kurtie. If there are any two groups who deserve to be forced to live with each other it is French Canadians and South African Boers, so this seems an excellent plan.
I wonder why I haven't been knighted after so many years of good and sensitive suggestions. Buckingham Palace is not reading this thread, I'm afraid.
 
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I wonder why I haven't been knighted after so many years of good and sensitive suggestions. Buckingham Palace is not reading this thread, I'm afraid.

Well you never know. We had that discussion on the current carrier fleet deficiency and lo and behold, 16 billion has suddenly appeared for new ships.
 
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Well you never know. We had that discussion on the current carrier fleet deficiency and lo and behold, 16 billion has suddenly appeared for new ships.
Mmmm... Sir Kurty Steiner, KBE, GCB, GCMG and KCCE (1), sounds nice, for starters...

(1) Knigth Commander of the Order of the Catalan Empire, of course.
 
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