• Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

El Pip

Lord of Slower-than-real-time
40 Badges
Dec 13, 2005
7.065
473
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Semper Fi
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
Chapter CXLI: The Curious Incident of the Island in the Eclipse.

The Canton and Enderbury Islands were a pair of tiny uninhabited, and uninhabitable, coral reef atolls in the Central Pacific and were not, at first glance, an obvious prize to provoke an international incident. Given their complete lack of notable feature a first glance was often all they got, since being discovered in the mid-19th century they had been mined of their guano deposits, discounted as a naval navigation way-station due to being too far from the shipping routes and considered, but dismissed, as the site of a relay station on the Imperial Telegram Cable Route. By the start of the 20th Century the islands had been lumped in with the rest of the nearby "Phoenix Islands" and seemed fated to a life of quiet obscurity, existing mainly as just one of the many scatterings of Imperial Red specks found on any good map. This peaceful existence was interrupted when a new set of pioneers started studying maps of Pacific and, unlike their surface and sub-surface predecessors, they were soon very interested in the islands.


A map of the various possible trans-Pacific air routes based on the technology of the mid 1930s. Hawaii was the key to many of the routes, the complete lack of any notable feature between that island and the US west coast made it's landing rights valuable and the first thing any rival government would ask for during reciprocal rights negotiations. The abortive PanAm 'All American' route to New Zealand is shown running through the Kingsman Reef and American Samoa. Kingsman Reef was just that, an open ocean reef with no dry land, while Pago Pago harbour in America Samoa was too small to take flying boats, so the disastrous explosion of the PanAm clipper was sadly an accident waiting to happen. The Canton and Enderbury Islands can be seen in the centre of the map and the use of an airfield in such a position is obvious. Also of interest is the 'Far North' route through Alaska and the Kuriles, which was only practical in the good weather of high summer, and the 'French' southern route through Clipperton and Tahiti, a route that looked better on an Air France promotional poster than as a practical commercial proposition. Not that this stopped the British looking at an equally impractical southern route through the Cook Islands, Pitcairn and Easter Island.

While Imperial Airlines had been focusing on the Atlantic and routes to Australia and South Africa, it's US rival Pan-America Airlines had put it's efforts into expanding into South America and, more importantly for our current purposes, crossing the Pacific. By 1935 PanAm had finally received it's new longer-ranged Martin M-130 flying boats and brought it's North Pacific route (San Francisco - Honolulu - Midway - Wake - Guam - Manila) into weekly service. With the Atlantic route still tied up in technical and political problems, PanAm fixed upon the South Pacific Route as their next challenge; the Australia/New Zealand to North America market being deemed worth the effort. In theory this should have been a far easier route to survey and organise, unlike the north Pacific the south western area of the Pacific was full of islands and atolls where a flying boat could land. Unfortunately for PanAm it soon emerged that, while there were several possible routes, all of them involved landing on a British claimed island en-route and there was no practical 'All American' route. This was not (just) a matter of national pride, landing and overflight rights had to be negotiated for and the price was typically reciprocity; you can land on mine, if I can land on yours. As a matter of practicality PanAm could not enter those sorts of deals, the permissions belonged to the US government not them, and commercially they had no desire to allow competitors onto 'their' routes. Consequently PanAm relaxed their definition of practical and attempted to use a theoretically possible route through the only territories the US did have a claim on. Tragically the proving flight ended in disaster when the Sikorsky S-42 exploded during a landing attempt in a too-small harbour in American Samoa, sadly proving their original assessment of the routes impracticality had been correct. Still reluctant to negotiate reciprocal rights PanAm turned their attention to potential landing sites where they thought sovereignty was less than clear, in this endeavour they would find an ally in the US government which was also interested in asserting claims in the central Pacific. Unfortunately they would soon discover that the various governments of the British Empire kept an eye on the region and had no doubts at all about who was, and was not, sovereign over the various islands.

The vast majority of the central Pacific islands had previously only been valuable for their guano deposits, the vast nitrate rich masses of seabird droppings built up over centuries, when these were exhausted the islands owners tended to lose interest. This apparent carelessness over ownership encouraged PanAm to believe that they could find an island where the US had a plausible claim, encourage the US government to enforce said claim and then build a seaplane base there. They were fortunate that the US military had a growing interest in the region, concerned about Japanese expansion in the South Seas Mandate (the Caroline and Marshall Islands) the US Navy, supported by the State Department, wanted a string of bases in the region to help contain Japan and to serve as air bases and safe harbours in the event of war. To support this endeavour the US government had launched the honestly named 'American Equatorial Islands Colonization Project' in the mid-1930s, as many have observed US objections to colonialism are always more about other nations being successful at it than any actual problem with the concept. The main aim of the project was to covertly transfer groups of 'colonists' to islands were the US claims to sovereignty were weak, the newly established colonies would then serve as facts-on-the-ground to support the American diplomatic position. By the end of 1936 three islands had been 'colonised' with volunteers from Hawaii and the US claims on Howland, Baker and Jarvis Islands were far more secure, even if the British Foreign Office was attempting to drag the matter of Baker island to international adjudication. The Baker Island response should have been a warning to the State Department about the diplomatic consequences of the scheme, yet the British reaction had been at so low a level (letters at the bureaucratic level not ministerial) it was taken as a mere formality not a serious objection, indeed it would be cited as a positive precedent for future US moves. This was to prove an unfortunate misinterpretation.


The Imperial Airways Empire-class flying boat Centaurus in Melbourne harbour completing a 'good will' tour of Australian state capitals after successfully proving the Sydney-Auckland route. While EAMS (the Empire Air Mail Scheme) may have turned away from a full Empire wide seaplane-only service, it was believed the Empire boats still had a role to play on certain routes, not least the longer ranged over-water runs where the sea was the only 'alternative landing site'. As was often the case practical progress ran ahead of Imperial politics and the trans-Tasman route was proved in early 1937, several months before the politicians had agreed which airline would operate it. Given the precedent of QEA (Qantas Empire Airways) it was correctly believed that another joint venture would end up being selected for the trans-Tasman route, so the prominent 'Imperial Airways' branding on the aircraft was more in hope than expectation.

From the British perspective crossing the Pacific appeared to present more of a headache than an opportunity. While it was acknowledged that a connection from Australasia to Canada would be good for Imperial unity and commerce, and it was admitted that going via London and the Atlantic was something of the long way round, the Imperial Airways planners could read a map as well as PanAm. Any route would have to go via Hawaii and that would entail giving reciprocal concessions to a US airline, likely PanAm, and Imperial's management were just as keen on keeping out competitors as their American rivals. Imperial had the added problem of the aerial ambitions of the Australian and New Zealand governments to contend with, both of whom wanted their local airlines involved in any scheme but at minimal costs to themselves. Just securing a regular route across the Tasman Sea between Australia and New Zealand had involved the formation of a new company TEAL (Tasman Empire Airways Limited) with Imperial Airways, Union Airways (the New Zealand airline subsidiary of Union Shipping), Qantas and the New Zealand government all owning a share. The Trans-Pacific route promised to be even worse as there would have to be Canadian and American involvement as well, to say nothing of the ongoing fight between Wellington and Canberra as to whether the route should 'start' in New Zealand or Australia. Despite all this the planners and surveyors had diligently continued their work, correctly recognising that whatever the makeup of the company created they would need a tested and proven route to fly.

With the United States and the British Empire both looking for bases, carrying out surveys and generally trying to assert (or claim) sovereignty some sort of clash was inevitable. The trigger still managed to come from an unexpected source; the sun and the moon, specifically a total solar eclipse. The summer of 1937 would see a total eclipse across the Pacific and the best place to observe it from was the Canton and Enderbury islands which would experienced just over 4 minutes of totality. Naturally astronomers were keen to take advantage and two expeditions were assembled to observe the event from Canton island; one an Empire team organised by New Zealand and the other a joint US Navy/National Geographic effort. While neither effort was purely scientific, the New Zealand expedition would also assemble a meteorological and radio station on Canton to assist in assessing it's potential as an airbase, the US effort had the more ambitious ulterior motive. Pan Am had identified Canton as ideally placed for their southern route to Australasia, and the State Department had conveniently discovered a US claim to Canton that just needed 'restating' to the wider world. Consequently a flag, plaque, temporary accommodation and various other items to support the 'colonisation' of the island would be embarked on the eclipse expedition and a team would stay behind after the scientist until the 'colonists' arrived later in the year. With both expeditions convinced their nation had sovereignty, with perhaps different degrees of conviction, neither thought to inform the other government of their intentions. More seriously this meant neither prepared for the possibility of encountering the other, the New Zealanders because they genuinely had no idea about the US claims, while the State Department had convinced itself Britain might sent an irate note but would do nothing more. This lack of guidance would leave the captains 'on the ground' to fall back on their own judgement, which in hindsight was perhaps not ideal.


HMS Achilles, pride of the New Zealand Division of the Royal Navy and veteran of the Abyssinian War, departing Wellington en-route to the central Pacific. With the expansion of the Far Eastern Fleet and the strengthening of China Station (Hong Kong), there were a great deal more Royal Navy cruisers and sloops available around the South China Sea and western Pacific for 'flying the flag' and diplomatic duties than in previous years. This freed up Achilles to focus on other priorities elsewhere, relevantly for our purposes this included the Pacific Island Air Survey, a mission to investigate the potential for seaplane bases and runways on various central Pacific Islands. Previous surveys had relied on naval officers and the embarked Walrus seaplane pilot to assess the islands, recognising the limitations of this approach the Air Survey would embark large aircraft pilots and aerodrome engineers to provide more expert judgement. Fatefully it was decided to combine this mission with transporting the New Zealand Eclipse Expedition to Canton.

The actual Canton Incident itself is somewhat unclear, accounts differ and it is clear there had been a degree of editing and 'revision' of various logs and records. It is known that the USS Avocet, a former minesweeper converted to seaplane tender and general service vessel, arrived first and the US group started assembling their accommodation and raised their flag to support the American sovereignty claim. The HMS Achilles arrived a couple of days later to drop off the expedition and carry out the aerial survey, and a stand off over anchorage in the lagoon developed. Naturally the Avocet had anchored in the prime spot, the lagoon being empty when she arrived, and was disinclined to move, the captain having been informed the island was under American control and so his ship had priority. The Achilles Captain disputed this on the grounds that (a) his ship was far larger and needed the best deepwater anchorage and, far more importantly, (b) the island was and always had been British territory so it was his decision to make. If a warning shot was actually fired by Achilles is shrouded in mystery, on balance the testimonies indicate it probably was, even if both sides thought it diplomatic not to refer to it in future communications on the matter. What is certain is that the Avocet decided, for whatever reason, to vacate it's anchorage and relocate elsewhere and the Achilles claimed the prime position for herself. It is also probably just Royal Navy legend that the British Captain returned the US flag and plaque claiming the island to the Avocet as some 'miscellaneous items' that the Americans must have 'accidentally dropped', certainly it is very unlikely he actually sent them back the flag with a note requesting they stop 'littering' on the island. In any event by the time the scientific expeditions departed the only flag on the island was the Union Jack and the planned American base had been packed up back on the Avocet.

The incident soon raced up the hierarchies on both side of the Pacific (and indeed the Atlantic) and after some initial intemperate words, calm heads prevailed. As previously mentioned both sides recognised that this was not an issue worth starting a major dispute over and the incident was muddied up to avoid any obvious loss of face on the American side; the agreed line became that the Avocet had moved as there was only one spot where the Achilles could safely anchor and then both expeditions worked together through the eclipse in the spirit of scientific endeavour and Anglo-American co-operation. That the Foreign Office was prepared to go along with this version of events was due to the change of heart inside the US government. While President Landon had never been overly enthusiastic about the Colonisation Programme to begin with, the military advice, the large commercial interests backing it and it's low cost and low profile nature had been enough to convince him to allow it to continue. Now faced with a incident blowing up over an Island most of his administration couldn't even locate (a state of affairs mirrored in the British Cabinet's struggles to locate the islands when they were briefed on the Incident) the issue attracted more critical attention. The State Department had reluctantly admitted that the US claim to Canton Island was indeed weak and they had been relying on essentially 'bouncing' Britain into accepting an American presence before anyone realised what had happened. With that now impossible, and the President annoyed to be distracted from important domestic concerns and the running sore of Spain, the State Department was ordered to calm matters down and salvage what they could. An exchange of notes and letters saw a deal hammered out, the basis of which was mutual recognition between the two countries of each others claims, specifically the Americans gave up on Canton and Enderbury while Britain accepted US control over Baker Island. Interestingly, while President Landon ordered the American Colonisation Scheme to be wound down after successfully achieving it's aims, if perhaps not in the way envisaged, the British High Commissioner of the Western Pacific was instructed to launch the Phoenix Island Settlement Scheme, the last terrestrial human colonisation effort of the British Empire. With both Canton and Enderbury now safely sitting within the British Phoenix Islands the scheme was not about sovereignty claims but instead aimed to reduce over-population in the nearby Gilbert Islands and provide the population necessary to make the Phoenix Islands viable bases.

With both sides resigned to the impossibility of excluding the other, and keen to avoid future incidents, the final deal also set up a joint working group for co-operate on Trans-Pacific air routes, with the aim of a Sydney to Vancouver route being operational by the end of the decade. While the Foreign Office girded itself for good few years of multi-lateral inter-governmental negotiations over the terms of the route, the Air Ministry allowed itself to hope the Trans-Pacific issue was safely parked for the forseeable and that they could focus on more urgent matters. These hopes were dashed when it emerged the airline side of the working group was resurrecting the vexed Seaplane vs Landplane issue. With Pan-Am heavily committed to it's new generation of flying boats, not least the mighty Boeing 314, the seaplane lobby within Imperial Airline (and indeed the RAF) began working to undo the earlier EAMS landplanes decision. As a matter of practicality and cost no-one wanted to build both seaplane and runway facilities and with the entire range of British and American islands to choose from both land and seaplane routes were possible, thus a decision would have to be made and a compromise reached. As had been feared by Whitehall, the Trans-Pacific crossing would indeed be at least as much of a headache as an opportunity.

---
Notes:
As promised, and in record time (by Butterfly standards), an update on the curious Canton Island incident. The background is mostly OTL, PanAm did get their proper Trans-Pacific route running by 1935 and then, perhaps out of over-confidence, did try to get to New Zealand by the shown route. OTL the 'Samoan Clipper' didn't explode on the proving flight, instead it exploded on the return leg of the first commercial flight - it was not a safe or viable route but PanAm really, really did not want to land on any British owned islands for fear of being asked for reciprocal rights. The American colonial scheme was OTL, because it had to be, as was 'acquiring' Baker Island off the British, the Foreign Office reaction was pretty tepid in OTL but gets notched up to 'threatening arbitration' in Butterfly (which was discussed) as they are starting to get their confidence back.

On the incident, well there was an eclipse, the two expeditions did meet and there was a stand off in the harbour about who got the best anchorage. OTL it was the sloop HMS Wellington that carried the New Zealand expedition, but HMS Achilles was doing the described aerial survey at about the same time, so I combined the two as I figure the British Empire is a fair bit more confident than OTL (and has more ships in the Pacific due to the larger Far East Fleet in Singapore) so is being a bit more assertive. Even in OTL there were RN sloops pinging around fairly regularly raising flags, doing surveys and getting annoyed at PanAm reps doing illegal surveys.

So to the big question, was their a warning shot fired? As I said sources differ, some have it as entirely peaceful, some with the Wellington firing a shot and some with Avocet firing a warning right back. I figure shots were not fired in OTL, it would be a bit of an overreaction and sloop crews tended to be a cautious lot (had it been an RN destroyer that was sent then the Avocet would be lucky to still be afloat). As has been discussed in other AARs the British government (and Dominion governments) were not on their game inter-war and were a bit listless and apathetic, the Foreign Office having it worst of all, so there was a natural caution that seeped into many things. Here it's the confident crew of a battle hardened cruiser facing a seaplane tender playing silly buggers and trying to 'steal' British territory, so shots most definitely were fired - even if the diplomats then hushed it up.

OTL the two sides stared at each other on Canton Island for a few years after the incident, and I mean that literally as they built rival huts and radio bases and squabbled about whose supply vessel parked where. Because FDR became mildly obsessed with it, and because the Foreign Office was distracted and apathetic, the situation drifted until war loomed and Britian wanted to both clear the decks and keep the Americans happy. At that point the British and Americans agreed the slightly odd "Condominium" approach to jointly rule the place which stayed in effect until 1979 and independence. As noted the US claim was incredibly weak, even the State Department didn't really believe it, but FDR was never one to let the law stand in his way so insisted and the Foreign Office indulged him. In Butterfly that is not the case and, with Japan seeming less of a threat, Landon is happy enough to wash his hands of the whole affair and blame it on his predecessor for starting to involve America in colonisation and empire.

New Zealanders, and fans of Imperial Airways, may notice TEAL and the Trans-Tasman route a bit early. Essentially without the need to map out a seaplane route across Australia (because EAMS is using land planes for that leg) some Empire boats have been freed up to prove that route early, not something I had intentionally planned but an obvious consequence if you think about earlier changes.
 
Last edited:
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:

TheButterflyComposer

The Dark Lord Kelebek
49 Badges
Mar 4, 2016
4.714
791
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
[Reserved]

Next time Pip, next time...
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Wraith11B

Call Kenny Loggins, you're in the DANGER ZONE...
39 Badges
Dec 5, 2008
3.818
544
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
That was quite the wild ride... Speaking as someone who has regularly flown across the Atlantic and sometimes across the Pacific on long haul wide-bodies, it's amazing to think about how experimental all of the earliest air travel was! Thank you for your insight into this!
 
  • 1
Reactions:

TheButterflyComposer

The Dark Lord Kelebek
49 Badges
Mar 4, 2016
4.714
791
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
Imperial Red specks
Red or pink? And how did they settle on those colours?

While Imperial Airlines had been focusing on the Atlantic and routes to Australia and South Africa,
...wait, do you mean focusing on the atlantic, and routes to Australia and South Africa? Otherwise it sounds like the IA were trying to force everyone to fly from London around Europe, around Africa, to SA and then on across the ocean to Australia.

Unfortunately for PanAm it soon emerged that, while there were several possible routes, all of them involved landing on a British claimed island en-route and there was no practical 'All American' route.
Ah, and they'd already settled on their brand name. Unfortunate.

PanAm turned their attention to potential landing sites where they thought sovereignty was less than clear, in this endeavour they would find an ally in the US government which was also interested in asserting claims in the central Pacific. Unfortunately they would soon discover that the various governments of the British Empire kept an eye on the region and had no doubts at all about who was, and was not, sovereign over the various islands.
And in further misfortune, they were in an AAR so the FO actually bothered to fight them on it too!

the last terrestrial human colonisation effort of the British Empire.
So no expansion into Scandinavia then? Boo.

Also that implies a british moon base with moon men and moon tea and moon biscuits (incidentally, they might have already appeared in CKII, or so I believe).

With both sides resigned to the impossibility of excluding the other, and keen to avoid future incidents, the final deal also set up a joint working group for co-operate on Trans-Pacific air routes, with the aim of a Sydney to Vancouver route being operational by the end of the decade.
That's probably for the best. It's just valuable enough to bother but not valuable enough to care too much, especially as commercial flights become capable of pan-pacific crossing not too far into the future.

Changing around all the colours on tiny specks seems pointless given that.

resurrecting the vexed Seaplane vs Landplane issue.
Oh, a long and popular debate in this very AAR as well, as indicated on the blog post summaries.
 
Last edited:
  • 3
Reactions:

Cromwell

Major
45 Badges
Jan 13, 2017
501
377
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Darkest Hour
All very interesting, it's always nice to see a more assertive policy towards the yanks. Yet another commitment to maintaining strength in the Pacific will be good for keeping Australia and New Zealand content in the knowledge that their place is with the empire.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Kurt_Steiner

Katalaanse Burger en Terroriste
Feb 12, 2005
19.814
579
We want Waaaaaaar!!! Kick those colonials where it hurts!!!!
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

caffran

Captain
42 Badges
Feb 25, 2006
482
196
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • 500k Club
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
the British High Commissioner of the Western Pacific was instructed to launch the Phoenix Island Settlement Scheme, the last terrestrial human colonisation effort of the British Empire.​

Wait, what??

Pippy, are you teasing us with a sequel to butterfly?

Should i be expecting a Stellaris AAR, extolling the virtues of the British Empire expanding across the galaxy? :oops::D

and with your new, speedy pace of updates, Butterfly is on course to be completed before 2200 CE


Maybe.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1Haha
Reactions:

roverS3

General
20 Badges
May 24, 2013
1.704
409
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
The scrap over Canton is a pretty interesting incident. Bringing HMS Achilles into it pretty much guarantees that the British will fire their guns and force the Americans to back down. An excellent display of naval diplomacy at work.

My two cents it that they should run flying boats. The infrastructure is likely cheaper than to build a decent sized airstrip, and they look damn cool. It's also rather unlikely at this stage that a new global war will occur in the near future, and that such a war would lead to a leap forward in aviation technology, and to the construction of so many airstrips and runways across the world both of which will render slower flying boats unprofitable for the vast majority of routes. I know it's oddly specific, but that would never happen, right? Flying boats all the way! Let's have everyone involved ordering more of them, maybe then we can have a few more of them survive in to 2020 in museums...

Should i be expecting a Stellaris AAR, extolling the virtues of the British Empire expanding across the galaxy? :oops::D
It seems more likely that the sequel will be played in Stellaris III or Stellaris IV, unless the franchise goes downhill after Stellaris II, in which case that will be the one regardless of the existence of newer iterations...
 
  • 3Haha
  • 1Like
Reactions:

El Pip

Lord of Slower-than-real-time
40 Badges
Dec 13, 2005
7.065
473
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Semper Fi
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
This is the first I have heard of a prophecy! I hope it was made by reading tea leaves or some other suitably British divination method for the butterfly effect? I have always been against observing the flight of birds, removing a goats liver and other continental innovations.
It is of course from tea leaves. Hence the Ritual (making the tea) leads to the Prophecy (reading the tea leaves). For truly advanced divination you can attempt to read the patterns in the smoke from the pipes and cigars in the smoking room of your club, but this is not for the novice. Contrary to popular belief you can interpret the patterns left in the residue of the bottom of a port glass - however the only message you will decipher is "Decant your port properly next time"

If your lawyer is wriggling in a catch all clause, they're padding out their hours before the case collpases.
I see you are unfamiliar with commercial and contractual law. Lucky you.


oof. Legal journals demonstrate their bias here. When they have columns decrying the absent legal representative in parliament youd assume they mean at all. Apparently what they mean is enough to be a significant minority/everyone in the room.
Or only barristers bother with legal journals?

[Reserved]

Next time Pip, next time...
Next time you will check the post count and not use the bottom post to ask people to do more posting? That would indeed be an improvement. ;)

That was quite the wild ride... Speaking as someone who has regularly flown across the Atlantic and sometimes across the Pacific on long haul wide-bodies, it's amazing to think about how experimental all of the earliest air travel was! Thank you for your insight into this!
I am glad it was appreciated. The biggest difference that always gets me is the risk tolerance of passengers and society in general. PanAm started operations on a route it knew wasn't really suitable, then the entire crew died on the first flight and the regulators just sort of shrugged 'These things happen'. They didn't even get sued, which I thought was a constitutional requirement.

Red or pink? And how did they settle on those colours?
It was Imperial Red. But text on red is pretty illegible so as a matter of practicality map printers used a pinker shade and overtime that colour came to be more assocaited. However officially it was red, the Imperial Telegraph Cable was the "All Red Line", that sort of thing.

Now why it was Red is a different question. I've seen a few reasons - due to the 'Redcoats' of the Army, taken from the red cross on the Royal Navy's ensign or because of the three colours available (red, white and blue) white didn't work (and had nasty connotations), France had taken Blue and that left Red. None of these seem satisfactory, so if anyone does know I'd be interested.

...wait, do you mean focusing on the atlantic, and routes to Australia and South Africa? Otherwise it sounds like the IA were trying to force everyone to fly from London around Europe, around Africa, to SA and then on across the ocean to Australia.
Should have put in an Oxford Comma to clear that up, it was indeed two focuses (Atlantic and Empire routes) not crazy round the world. These things will happen when I'm producing updates at this unnaturally quick rate of once a month. :(

That's probably for the best. It's just valuable enough to bother but not valuable enough to care too much, especially as commercial flights become capable of pan-pacific crossing not too far into the future.

Changing around all the colours on tiny specks seems pointless given that.
First non-stop trans-Pacific was Japan-San Francisco in 1949 and that was in a Stratocruiser (basically a commercial version of the B-29). That's at least a generation of aircraft ahead so the mixed multi-national route might run for a decade or so, maybe more depending on what path heavy bomber development takes.

Oh, a long and popular debate in this very AAR as well, as indicated on the blog post summaries.
Seaplanes are wonderful things and this is reflected in the vigour of their defenders arguments.

All very interesting, it's always nice to see a more assertive policy towards the yanks. Yet another commitment to maintaining strength in the Pacific will be good for keeping Australia and New Zealand content in the knowledge that their place is with the empire.
I genuinely believe that a UK that (perhaps incorrectly) is not distracted by an impending European War would have put effort into connecting up and reassuring Australia and New Zealand. Certainly that is the basis on which Butterfly will be proceeding.

We want Waaaaaaar!!! Kick those colonials where it hurts!!!!
As much as I always appreciate your presence Kurtie, you may be following the wrong AAR for that. ;)

Also that implies a british moon base with moon men and moon tea and moon biscuits (incidentally, they might have already appeared in CKII, or so I believe).
Wait, what??

Pippy, are you teasing us with a sequel to butterfly?

Should i be expecting a Stellaris AAR, extolling the virtues of the British Empire expanding across the galaxy? :oops::D

and with your new, speedy pace of updates, Butterfly is on course to be completed before 2200 CE


Maybe.
It seems more likely that the sequel will be played in Stellaris III or Stellaris IV, unless the franchise goes downhill after Stellaris II, in which case that will be the one regardless of the existence of newer iterations...
I am delighted that the little 'terrestrial' bit was noted. But I will not say any more on that because I've no idea when (if ever) it will be gone into. It might just be a small line in the epilogue or, Pip Generation 5 has any interest in continuing this story, it may yet be a sequel. ;)

The scrap over Canton is a pretty interesting incident. Bringing HMS Achilles into it pretty much guarantees that the British will fire their guns and force the Americans to back down. An excellent display of naval diplomacy at work.
I've been reading up on the RN cruiser force (and to an extent the Tribal destroyers) and the Grand Strategy of the inter-war. Where they were deployed, how they projected power and influence and the shear number of minor incidents they managed to get involved in. As you say a cruiser is more likely to be forceful on the matter, not just because of the extra firepower but because cruiser captains were expected to act independently and as a result had a firmer grasp on the wider situation and knew the importance of symbolism.

In OTL once the USN 'won' the battle of wills over the anchorage, and then got their base established, they were not going to be shifted short of a major diplomatic fight, if at all. A cruiser captain would know this so Achilles acted firmly to prevent it occurring.

My two cents it that they should run flying boats. The infrastructure is likely cheaper than to build a decent sized airstrip, and they look damn cool. It's also rather unlikely at this stage that a new global war will occur in the near future, and that such a war would lead to a leap forward in aviation technology, and to the construction of so many airstrips and runways across the world both of which will render slower flying boats unprofitable for the vast majority of routes. I know it's oddly specific, but that would never happen, right? Flying boats all the way! Let's have everyone involved ordering more of them, maybe then we can have a few more of them survive in to 2020 in museums...
These are all excellent arguments and as Imperial is in the middle of procuring a large fleet of Short Empires they will definitley be flying some. The questions are do they buy any more, do they look at the 'G' class long range variants, what does Coastal Command do for it's long range maritime reconnaissance requirement? There will have to be an update on this subject. ;)
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

TheButterflyComposer

The Dark Lord Kelebek
49 Badges
Mar 4, 2016
4.714
791
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
Should have put in an Oxford Comma to clear that up, it was indeed two focuses (Atlantic and Empire routes) not crazy round the world. These things will happen when I'm producing updates at this unnaturally quick rate of once a month. :(
Petty vengeance for the reserved. But yes, best be careful considering that grammar is law in butterfly universe, and if not caught now it will stay that way for months before you revist the topic and years before redux catches up. So the british really will be trying the gauntlet of flying round two continents and two oceans...

Seaplanes are wonderful things and this is reflected in the vigour of their defenders arguments.
I like seaplanes. Flying boats too.
 

Cromwell

Major
45 Badges
Jan 13, 2017
501
377
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Darkest Hour
Did you hear that chaps? Pip thinks one update a month is unnatural! Hurrah, he is moving up to a three weekly schedule!
 

El Pip

Lord of Slower-than-real-time
40 Badges
Dec 13, 2005
7.065
473
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Semper Fi
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
So the british really will be trying the gauntlet of flying round two continents and two oceans...
Well they were always going to do that, the only question was the direction. There is something of a race on-going, will there be a Sydney-Ottawa flight before a London-Ottawa flight? Trans-Pacific has to fight politics as existing planes can do it but lack permissions. Trans-Atlantic is a 'simple' Northern Ireland to Newfoundland trip but needs new planes to do the distance (or the much longer London-Gibraltar-Azores-Bermuda-New York-Canada route, which is also a political horror story and a bit dicey to do with decent payloads, so was mail only in OTL).

I like seaplanes. Flying boats too.
As do most people, except certain chunks of the RAF and Air Ministry. And the Australian government. Which makes EAMS tricky.

Did you hear that chaps? Pip thinks one update a month is unnatural! Hurrah, he is moving up to a three weekly schedule!
I admire your ambitious optimism. :D

On that subject I am pondering what to do for the next chapter. My big timeline/plan says it should be the Imperial Economic Conference but now I'm unsure. It's all good stuff but the main issue is the Dominions fighting about how Imperial Preference and trade blocks work, so tariffs, excise duties and co-ordinating trade policy are the big things. Frankly it is all a bit close to the long dragged out political events in the UK, it involves a discussion on the difference between Free Trade Areas and Customs Unions and how that applies to the Sterling Zone and Empire for starters. Given I plotted this particular bit almost a decade ago I absolutely did not intend to be paralleling current affairs, and I definitely would not be writing it as such, yet that is where we are.

My concern is the unfortunate tendency for some people to jump on any possible parallel to current events, and the apparent internet law that all such discussions involving the subject end in ALL CAPS shouting and people misunderstanding things (as we sadly saw last time). So I'm seriously considering re-jigging the order.
 

TheButterflyComposer

The Dark Lord Kelebek
49 Badges
Mar 4, 2016
4.714
791
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
And the Australian government.
Those guys...

My concern is the unfortunate tendency for some people to jump on any possible parallel to current events, and the apparent internet law that all such discussions involving the subject end in ALL CAPS shouting and people misunderstanding things (as we sadly saw last time). So I'm seriously considering re-jigging the order.
What happened last time? Was this before my time or did I miss it?
 

El Pip

Lord of Slower-than-real-time
40 Badges
Dec 13, 2005
7.065
473
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Semper Fi
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
What happened last time? Was this before my time or did I miss it?
Nothing particularly dramatic, just unfortunate. After the Irish vote update I made the mistake of mentioning the cursed ratio (52:48) and how if you look for it you see it everywhere (or think you do). TheExecuter took that as an invitation to post some Brexit video, I asked if he would mind not doing that as it always ends badly, he misunderstood, got all caps angry and has not commented since.

Given I'm not exactly fighting off readers and commenters with a stick, I'm wary any return to the B-word subject ends in another valued reader disappearing. On other forums it is one of the guaranteed row provoking subjects, alongside such all-time classics as modern US politics and comparative religion. :shudder:
 

RobbieAB

Major
28 Badges
Jun 23, 2006
649
326
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
I thought comparative religion was no longer on the hot button list?

Should we ask what you have plotted out for five years time?! :eek:
 

TheButterflyComposer

The Dark Lord Kelebek
49 Badges
Mar 4, 2016
4.714
791
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
Lots of stuff.

And one update on the civil war.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Le Jones

Colonel
69 Badges
Sep 3, 2008
1.161
165
  • Semper Fi
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
You believe incorrectly. Percentage of lawyers now is basically identical to the 70/80s, the low point (if that's the right word) was the '97 election and even then it was still 10% of the house. As of 2015 (last election in the data set) it was 14.2% barristers and solicitors. What has changed is the ratio; more solicitors and fewer barristers. I shall leave it to @Le Jones to comment on the significance or otherwise of that. ;)


Indeed, to an extent I miss them as the Supreme Court keeps forgetting where the courts actually sit in the constitution. When they were sitting in the House of Lords, forced into an ancient and archaic costume, I imagine it helps to focus the mind on the bigger picture. Certainly that has always been my experience of such rituals.

Presumably it reminded them to be conservative and extremely contemplative in all things, which whilst discouraging of legal evolution, is in the end usually what people want of high court rulings (the status qup upheld if at all possible).

Their decline also cuts down on the legal/poltical usage of 'real' enquiries where you actually want stuff to come out of it, since they were pretty much the only ones you could put as Chair of such a thing. Or to put another way, it makes a joke in Yes Minister slightly out of date which is utterly unacceptable.
So I am torn by the explosion of interest in the Supreme Court; the House of Lords exercising its appellate function wasn't, actually, that bad, it just lacked any presence and the Law Lords were, as @TheButterflyComposer says, too conservative (small 'c') to risk making 'courageous decisions'.

But I hate, truly hate, the media whoring that the Supreme Court is so obviously doing; we don't have true separation of powers in the UK, far from it, and I do think that there is some mad attempt at emulating their US colleagues that is going to end in tears for someone. Lady Hale is a superbly sharp lawyer, as was Sumption (I've seen him at work, it is a tour de force), but the fame went to their heads. God spare us from celebrity lawyers...

On the Parliament, we have a problem, that the role of Attorney General is traditionally given to a laywer who is an MP in the ruling party. If all they have are legal pygmies, then lucky not-quite-the-worst pygmy, you're it. I have often wondered if I, a mediocre hack, could find a safe seat, would I be in with a shout.

On the update, stirring stuff as ever @El Pip and great to see a Leander Class at work again. I was only dimly aware of the the Canton and Enderbury Islands incident as it was mentioned in a debate about prerogative power (Rockall is the example usually cited).
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions:

TheButterflyComposer

The Dark Lord Kelebek
49 Badges
Mar 4, 2016
4.714
791
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
On the Parliament, we have a problem, that the role of Attorney General is traditionally given to a laywer who is an MP in the ruling party.
Oh Christ, I forgot about that. That could be trouble especially as most lawyers are solictors and if you were a good and well connected solicitor, you have much better things to do than run and win a seat in parliment...

Mind you, that's true of many proffesions.
 

El Pip

Lord of Slower-than-real-time
40 Badges
Dec 13, 2005
7.065
473
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Semper Fi
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
I thought comparative religion was no longer on the hot button list?
I do hope so.
Should we ask what you have plotted out for five years time?! :eek:
Five Year real time, at current progress rates *consult date prediction spreadsheet*.... takes us to December 37/January 38. Big prediction plan says the two updates pencilled in for that period are a discussion on the Bombay Pentangular and Indian Society, and the Dockyard/Shipbuilding technology update. Seems suspiciously tame.

Lots of stuff.

And one update on the civil war.
Don't be ridiculous.

It will be lots of stuff, one update on Spain and zero updates on the SCW directly. it will only be January 1938 after all.


So I am torn by the explosion of interest in the Supreme Court; the House of Lords exercising its appellate function wasn't, actually, that bad, it just lacked any presence and the Law Lords were, as @TheButterflyComposer says, too conservative (small 'c') to risk making 'courageous decisions'.

But I hate, truly hate, the media whoring that the Supreme Court is so obviously doing; we don't have true separation of powers in the UK, far from it, and I do think that there is some mad attempt at emulating their US colleagues that is going to end in tears for someone. Lady Hale is a superbly sharp lawyer, as was Sumption (I've seen him at work, it is a tour de force), but the fame went to their heads. God spare us from celebrity lawyers...
This had been my impression, so I am delighted that such an eminent legal professional as yourself agrees.

On the Parliament, we have a problem, that the role of Attorney General is traditionally given to a laywer who is an MP in the ruling party. If all they have are legal pygmies, then lucky not-quite-the-worst pygmy, you're it. I have often wondered if I, a mediocre hack, could find a safe seat, would I be in with a shout.
I fear you are crippled by competence, realism and honesty. Any one would be damaging for a political career, but all three are fatal. However should you manage to overcome that you would doubtless be a shoe-in for Attorney General.

On the update, stirring stuff as ever @El Pip and great to see a Leander Class at work again. I was only dimly aware of the the Canton and Enderbury Islands incident as it was mentioned in a debate about prerogative power (Rockall is the example usually cited).
I do like Leander. They were a little jack of all trades in the way a proper cruiser should be and despite their compromises they did good work in war and peace.

As you have mentioned Rockall this gives me an excuse to post one of my favourite late Empire pictures;


Royal Marine garrison on Rockall mid 1970s, just to really make clear that it was definitely British territory.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Wraith11B

Call Kenny Loggins, you're in the DANGER ZONE...
39 Badges
Dec 5, 2008
3.818
544
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
I have to say, that looks exactly like what I'd expect a Royal Marine garrison to look like. Stick two Lance Cooleys out there and a hutch, call it a day.