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Nathan Madien

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Mar 24, 2006
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An interesting look at the FAA, El Pip.

The bitter relationship between the FAA and the RAF seems a bit weird. I mean, they're planes. It isn't like the army and navy - who get their own football game here in the USA.

But now, onwards to tanks, trucks, troops, and all the good stuff in life that travels on land... I feel a haiku coming on... :D

Dury

That's the spirit! :D
 
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El Pip

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DonnieBaseball - I think the real benefit of the Skua mods isn't making it a better dive bomber but forcing the FAA to buy a proper fighter instead.

On bomb load to be fair it doesn't really matter, after all the important thing in the Pacific War was sinking carriers. The RN, assuming it's undistracted and can concentrate, has more than enough battleships to defeat their Japanese counter-parts*. As long as the FAA has the numbers and firepower to take down the carriers they can leave the rest of the surface fleet to the battle fleet.

* This doesn't apply to the Yamatos which could be a bit tricky. Though with an anaemic US perhaps the Japanese won't build any, no need for quality over quantity if the quantity isn't building anything. Hmmm

Duritz - I remember it well, the Griffin was my baby in that one and I hope to give it a new lease of life later on. ;)

Davout - Thanks for the kind words. :)

I have plans for air cover over convoys, cunning ones that I think I can justify after the miserable failure of the RN anti-sub campaign against the Italians. After all if you can't sink Italian subs what chance do you have against competent German ones? :eek:

As with the Renown, it was a bit of a wrench dropping the Sea Hurricane. But then what's the point of doing an alt-hist but then having the same units pop up? Something I'd imagine a tanker like yourself will appreciate given the less than stellar performance of some OTL tanks, nobody wants to see another Covenanter.

And as for the teasing that was merely my belated remembrance that really long updates seem to put people off from commenting. So I'll be trying to split the army one up a bit to encourage people to read not skim (or whatever the reason for less comments is).

Tigey - What I want to know is why does History always repeat the bad bits and not the good bits?

Sir Humphrey - A bit harsh, they are getting there slowly and now they have some actual experience to use. All they need is time and regular exercises to refine, they'll get the latter but I make no promises on the former.

Nathan Madien - The RAF has spent almost it's entire existence worried about being scrapped. Even today there's an argument Britain could save a fortune by scrapping the RAF and expanding the FAA and Army Air Corps in it's place. Whenever there's a budget squeeze or re-organisation the idea gets floated and has done since the 1920s and the Geddes Axe.

From the OTL Air Staff's viewpoint they've just seen the FAA taken away and now Strike Command is working (dangerously) closely with the Army and asking for control of escort fighters. People are eyeing up Coastal Command and wondering if that too should belong to the Navy and there's not a lot of interest in expanding Bomber Command after a quiet(ish) war. Only Fighter Command has any external interest, which is a shame as the Air Staff really just want to build more heavy bombers.

If you were a paranoid RAF commander convinced the Treasury wanted to abolish your entire service to save cash, you'd be worried and un-coperative as well.
 
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Nathan Madien

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What I want to know is why does History always repeat the bad bits and not the good bits?

I think Dark Helmet put it best when he said something like "Bad triumphs because good is dumb."

If you were a paranoid RAF commander convinced the Treasury wanted to abolish your entire service to save cash, you'd be worried and un-coperative as well.

Good point.
 
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Karelian

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Interesting update. As a sidenote I still think IJN design philosophy in battleships will lead to something quite like the OTL Yamato-class, although most likely fielded in smaller numbers than the five they originally planned to build.
 
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trekaddict

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So what will you use as the FAA Fighter? The Seafire is unfortunately too short ranged for the war I expect you will find yourself in and even without hindsight that should be obvious. Perhaps buy something from the Americans?
 
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Vann the Red

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I cannot imagine the answer to any British problem in Pip's world being 'buy something from the Americans'. Maybe I'm wrong.

Pippy, much enjoyed the reprise of our conversations about the Skua/Gull from some time past.

Vann
 
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El Pip

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Nathan Madien - Very true.

Karelian - While I'd agree the IJN would design a monster I'm not sure they'd get funding for it. After all the US remains the prime enemy with the UK some way behind in second (closer than OTL maybe, but not by much). So all fleet construction will be with a mind to beating the USN, which currently is rotting away and badly under-funded.

What Japan has is enough (wont be once if the US starts building of course, but Japan always planned for a short war and couldn't conceive of a long one), particularly with no South Dakotas and no modernisation of the existing BBs for the USN. As such I can see the Japanese deciding not to bother with the Yamato and spend it on something else. Still not sure on that matter though.

trekaddict - Wash your mouth out! :p

I have plans for the air force that don't involve just recycling the usual suspects. Planes that never got the chance to grace the skies will get an opportunity here, that's all I'm saying for now.

Vann the Red - Nope your right, in this case anyway, as I just can't see it happening given the context. There's no emergency or desperate fight for survival I can see national pride and the old 'Not Invented Here' problem stopping any overseas purchasing mission before it leaves the ground.

Plus of course British kit was more than enough to smash the Italians, surely it will be good enough for anything else? (Have I mentioned there may be a degree of over-confidence seeping into the British armed forces? ;) )

And as you say the Skua/Gull was something of a blast from the past. Wonder whatever happened to the old UK Co-op?
 
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trekaddict

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I want my Spitfires for Fighter Command! :mad:
 
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Duritz

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Wonder whatever happened to the old UK Co-op?

My bad. I let it sort of die a slow, slow death. :(

I got caught up in RL, sidetracked with some other projects and then just sort of fell into bugging you to post rather than bothering to actually post something myself... it's more fun! :p

Now you and Vann stop reminiscing, I'm due some tank porn! :D

Dury.
 
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Sir Humphrey

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Maybe the FAA should buy some navalised Wirraways (for dive bombing) and Boomerangs (for fighters, they'll always come back to the ship!) Its the only sane answer.
jaby2.gif
 
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trekaddict

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and Boomerangs (for fighters, they'll always come back to the ship!) Its the only sane answer.
jaby2.gif

It's just because they are too slow to go anywhere else. :D
 
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Derek Pullem

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So what will you use as the FAA Fighter? The Seafire is unfortunately too short ranged for the war I expect you will find yourself in and even without hindsight that should be obvious. Perhaps buy something from the Americans?

I have a horrible feeling that we'll see a line of Fairey Fulmar derivatives for the FAA - until the Zeroes et al start trashing them :(
 
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I have a horrible feeling that we'll see a line of Fairey Fulmar derivatives for the FAA - until the Zeroes et al start trashing them :(

Shouldn't be a danger of that if the FAA is dead-set against adapting RAF types--Fulmar was adopted from RAF light bomber design that lost out to the Henley, another example of FAA getting the scraps (though using an existing design did get it into service v.fast which was the priority).

Hopefully the early (compared to OTL) realization that performance matters for fleet fighters means the big 2-seat fighter is out and we see something more along the lines of, say, a "British Hellcat", assuming there's a preference for a radial engine and the Merlin isn't as ubiquitous as OTL.
 
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El Pip

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trekaddict - Relax! The Spitfires are assured, they're undergoing final tweaking prior to entering service. Some things are just too cool to leave out. :D

Duritz - Tank Porn is coming but first Army politics. Not sure if that counts but at least it's quick.

Sir Humphrey - It may well be a sane answer but what is the question? If the question was "What would be a really bad idea for the FAA to buy?" then yes the Wirraway is the answer, like the Boomerang it's the answer to the question no-one should have asked in the first place.

trekaddict - Correct. :)

Derek Pullem - I can promise it won't be that. What a terrible thought! :eek:

DonnieBaseball - A good deal correct in that lot. There's definitely a preference for radial engines, they just make too much sense for a naval aircraft in terms of maintenance, etc. Equally for a pure fleet fighter single seat is now recognised as the way to go, however if the FAA can afford it is a different question.

Even more important will they finally pick someone else to design an aircraft, Fairey and Blackburn had a fairly good strangle hold and wouldn't be top of my list of people to go to for a fighter.


And now to updatery, yes I know it's only been a few days but I had a free afternoon and this is just a short one. Please try and avoid dying of shock.
 
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Chapter LXXXVI: A Shell for the Navy?

El Pip

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Chapter LXXXVI: A Shell for the Navy?

The post-Abyssinian War review of the British Army was not a welcome experience for the Imperial General Staff and senior officer corps who's problems with the review started with the fact it was happening at all. It was the view of many in the Army that any such analysis of the war should have been an in-house affair, conducted by a few Staff officers and used for low level lesson learning and, more importantly, to justify more funding and army expansion. Views such as that encapsulate the key problem facing army reformers, quite simply the war had been won, victory doesn't inspire the deep soul searching and humility necessary for the fundamental reconsideration of cherished doctrine and the enthusiastic adoption of new ideas. Instead, while recognising that the war had been a close run thing, requiring stripping many theatres to their bare minimum, the key point much of the officer corps wished to draw was that the army should be larger, but not necessarily much different. What little impetus there was for reform, outside of the ranks of the hard-core modernisers, came from wounded pride at the prominent position give to the role of the Royal Navy in the conflict. Sir Edward Grey's infamous line "The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy" had bothered the Army from almost the moment it was uttered, reflecting as it did the relative rankings of the two services within the political establishment. Thus the view that it was the Navy that had won the war, with the Army serving as little more than glorified marines, rankled immensely, especially as it contained more than a grain of truth. It had been the Navy that had brought the Army to North Africa, supplied it when it arrived, stopped supplies reaching the Italians through blockade, kept the Italian air force grounded through lack of fuel, moved troops along the coast when the road network couldn't, led the amphibious assaults that had so daringly 'leap frogged' along the coast and provided bombardment when the artillery couldn't. Even the most myopic of Army observers were forced to concede that without the Navy the war would have been longer, bloodier and riskier, hardly the best of conclusions for a service that had wanted a decisive victory to prove it's worth. It was however at least partially fertile ground for a review to work with, any reform that could reduce reliance on the navy would be warmly welcomed.

The choice of chairman for the review was a delicate one, technically the Ministry could appoint anyone they wanted and then compel the Army to co-operate and follow any recommendations. However the then Minister for War, Duff Cooper, realised that this would be furiously resisted by a service already upset they had been denied an in-house review. It would therefore be key to appoint someone who would be respected by the army hierarchy but would also be independent of the pressure that same hierarchy would apply, this combination of requirements naturally suggested a retired senior officer. The problem then became which one, for the choice of officer would doubtless heavily influence not only the content of the review but how enthusiastically (if at all) the recommendations were taken up by the Army. At one extreme were the old guard reactionaries who believed the campaign have proven foot infantry and the lightly mechanised cavalry were more than adequate and the only question was how many more divisions Britain needed, for these gentlemen the only possible choice was the recent Chief of the Imperial General Staff (CIGS) Field Marshall Montgomery-Massingberd. At the other extreme the mechanisation theorists and the Royal Armoured Corps who's arguments revolved around the need for wide-spread all arms mechanisation and the need for a more modest expansion to save funds for new modern equipment, this faction mostly fell in behind Montgomery-Massingberd's predecessor as CIGS, the Baron Milne. The War Office took the political decision that neither of these candidates could be suitable, for the simple reason that their appointment would alienate the opposing faction, hardly an ideal way to get the whole Army on side. Instead a list of requirements was drawn up and compared against the possible candidates, top of the list was rank, the appointee had to be a Field Marshall to have the necessary gravitas compared to the alternatives, experience in Desert Warfare, an open mind on mechanisation and a degree of detachment from the infighting inside the Imperial General Staff completed the list. After consulting the exceptionally short list of retired Field Marshall's alive and fit enough to do the job one name stood out; Field Marshal Philip Chetwode.

SeBnBMH.jpg

Field Marshal Chetwode. Aside from his Great War service Chetwode had been most well known for his work in India, in particular for his founding of the Indian Military Academy and for giving the institution the credo which is still inscribed on the entrance hall to this day; "The safety, honour and welfare of your country come first, always and every time. The honour, welfare and comfort of the men you command come next. Your own ease, comfort and safety come last, always and every time."

Chetwode obviously fulfilled the rank qualification and, thanks to long service in India as Chief of the General Staff in India and then Commander-in-Chief India, had missed out on much of the acrimonious arguments over mechanisation; not even the most zealous of Fuller's followers had advocated a fully armoured Indian Army, if only for the quite terrifying costs involved. Yet his time in India had not kept Chetwode entirely ignorant of the advances in military technology, the campaigns on the North West Frontier had seen the use of light tanks, tractor towed artillery, motorised supply trains and considerable co-operation with the Royal Air Force. It was however his Great War service that confirmed the choice, after a decidedly average time in command of a cavalry brigade on the Western Front he flourished when transferred to the Near East. One of the few senior officers to emerge with much credit from General Murray's less than stellar handling of the campaign Chetwode was promoted from commanding the Desert Column to command of XX Corps, more importantly his 'Notes on the Palestine Campaign' became the blueprint for Field Marshall Allenby's subsequent victories. While 'The Bull' deservedly took much of the credit, a plan is no good unless it can be successfully put into action, Chetwode's role in that success had not been entirely erased or forgotten. For the War Office then he ticked all their boxes and was thought to be the best shot at a unity candidate as his record could be read to support pretty much any position; the reactionaries saw a senior officer who had fought in battles as far back as the relief of Ladysmith and had been in uniform since before most of the tank advocates had been born, clearly such a man wouldn't be distracted by fancy toys from the true business of soldiering. Conversely the modernisers saw the man who had produced the plans for Allenby's Palestine Campaign, a campaign characterised by rapidly moving columns, air power and strikes at rear areas, then used those same ideas on the North West Frontier in India, proof positive he would clearly recommend the whole Army adopt the same.

The War Office however knew this initial good will could not last and managed to negotiate the services of the Cabinet Secretary, Maurice Hankey, to serve the review. Quite aside from his vast experience of military matters gathered from service on almost every military committee in the Empire, it was hoped Hankey would be able to smooth over the inevitable problems and provide a detached Civil Service perspective on the problems. In the event Hankey's skills would be called into service almost as soon as the review began, one of Chetwode's first request being for the full version of the obscenely late analysis of Britain's performance in the Great War. Almost inexplicably delayed until 1932 the then CIGS, Baron Milne, had finally ordered an analysis of the lessons learned, if they were the correct lessons and if they had been applied correctly to the manuals and training programmes of the Army. Unfortunately by the time the report emerged Baron Milne had retired and Montgomery-Massingberd had taken his place as CIGS. Montgomery-Massingberd, disliking the conclusion of the analysis and not wishing anything 'negative' to be circulated, restricted the report to the highest levels of the Imperial General Staff and instead issued a thoroughly mutilated 'up beat' version to the officer corps. By requesting the full, unedited, report Chetwode was opening a can of worms that the reactionaries had hoped to leave sealed, much to the War Office's alarm. However it should not have been a surprise to them, one of the reasons they had selected Chetwode was his skill at thoroughly 'appraising the situation' and the lessons of the Great War were an obvious part of that. There was however little that could be done, having made a fuss over picking an independently minded man to head the review the War Office had little choice but to back him, a situation Chetwode would take full advantage of.
 
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Two updates in less than 7 days?!? Who is this and what have you done to El Pip?


On a more serious note, the need of bureaucracy (whether civil or military) to justify its own existence through focusing on the means instead of the ends never ceases to amaze me. Here's hoping the report for the Chetwode enquiry is released before the end of the next war.

Speaking of which, there must be at least another 2 updates in this soul searching before we move onto the T&A* porn.




*Tracks & Armour
 
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IIRC the standard AT gun is the 2pdr at this time, correct?

With the 6pdr available instead of that it should be possible to build a reasonable tank around a gun that should stay competetive until the 17pdr is there. (Which also happens to be my favourite Wallied AT gun.)
 
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Postwar analysis that starts by taking into account the postwar analysis of the previous war - this project will clearly take some time. The War Office made a good choise on Chetwode but is the current Army leadership willing to take advice from his final report?

Somehow I envision that the lessons learned and the following debate between tank proponents and old guard will result on proposals of a creation of units that will be organizationally close to OTL Red Army Cavalry Corps. Semi-motorized cavalry, motorized infantry and tanks combined into small, mobile striking forces with adequate attached support of artillery, mortars, and automatic weapons. Considering the events of the recent war and Chetwodes own war experiences the report will most likely emphasize the importance of swift flanking attacks followed by encirlements conducted by cooperation of air forces and armored units.
 
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Field Marshal Chetwode. Aside from his Great War service Chetwode had been most well known for his work in India, in particular for his founding of the Indian Military Academy and for giving the institution the credo which is still inscribed on the entrance hall to this day; "The safety, honour and welfare of your country come first, always and every time. The honour, welfare and comfort of the men you command come next. Your own ease, comfort and safety come last, always and every time."

That is quite a credo--bravo to the Field Marshal. Sounds like the right man on the job. If the Army ends up with more of a mobility and (especially) combined arms focus that's all for the good.
 
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