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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

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Pj Fallon

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But if your not taking any attrittion siegeing should be grand.
 

Pewt

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Assulting castles though would really burn your MP. No wonder PEWT thinks 5.2 is too hard on MP.
It doesn't matter how much an individual action costs manpower-wise re 5.2 CTJU. What matters is that a harsh war will bring you to 0 manpower (in any patch, except maybe post-CC 5.1), and in 5.2 CTJU+ it takes far too long to recover from that.
 

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High Level forts are quite costly to assault without a siege.

@ Pewt: Define far too long. And tell me what is your criteria. Total wars every 5/10 years?
 

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High Level forts are quite costly to assault without a siege.

@ Pewt: Define far too long. And tell me what is your criteria. Total wars every 5/10 years?

1 Total war in the newest beta patch would set u back about 15-20 years
 

Pewt

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High Level forts are quite costly to assault without a siege.

@ Pewt: Define far too long. And tell me what is your criteria. Total wars every 5/10 years?
It frequently takes 30+ years in 5.2 CTJU to reinforce, rebuild, regenerate manpower, finish off WE-related rebels, and the like after scenarios like the war I'm currently in in this game. Use the x3 rule of reinforcing: one cycle to fill the manpower pool, one cycle to (re)build troops to account for better income/forcelimits or wipes, and one cycle to reinforce existing stacks, plus a little bit from rebels, after-war attrition due to not noticing it/having two armies pass each other on their way to do something/other innocent stuff, and so on.
 

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1 Total war in the newest beta patch would set u back about 15-20 years

In a CTJU based game (with an MP mod which doesn't change manpower), the Ottos, with a 850k MP base in 1700ish have a manpower gain slightly over 7k/month. They boast an army of about 1 million men. This gives them about 20 years to get themselves back together, accounting for WE-related stuff, after losing a total war. However, with events, it is often closer to 15 years than to 20, and that's the usual amount of time between major wars. And I think there was one 10% MP decision which was not taken (recruiting act, IIRC).

In ZZFZ, if you optimize a bit, you can have reasonably harsh wars with less than 10 years between them. Sure, they can be fun, but to reduce the whole game to a nearly endless stack grind... dunno.
 

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In a CTJU based game (with an MP mod which doesn't change manpower), the Ottos, with a 850k MP base in 1700ish have a manpower gain slightly over 7k/month. They boast an army of about 1 million men. This gives them about 20 years to get themselves back together, accounting for WE-related stuff, after losing a total war. However, with events, it is often closer to 15 years than to 20, and that's the usual amount of time between major wars. And I think there was one 10% MP decision which was not taken (recruiting act, IIRC).

In ZZFZ, if you optimize a bit, you can have reasonably harsh wars with less than 10 years between them. Sure, they can be fun, but to reduce the whole game to a nearly endless stack grind... dunno.

In post ZZFZ patch this war would not be as entertaining as it was. It would be over much sooner and recovering would last much longer.
 

Pewt

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Well, didn't take many screenshots because I was recording the wars this time for a change, and it turns out I got a really nice video of my desktop behind EU3. Blah. Anyhow, next session report will be screenshot-lite (and death-heavy; I'm surprised people still live in France and Germany at this point, especially the Rhine area...).
 

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I saw in the multiplayer thread co-oping was almost declared against the rules. Why was that?
 

Elcyion

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In post ZZFZ patch this war would not be as entertaining as it was. It would be over much sooner and recovering would last much longer.

After one of these wars in Ctju it would mean russia-Italy-OE could devide Austria-Prussia-France beetween em as u guys couldent recover and we could redow evry 5 years while not losing much MP by keeping u guys at zero with depleted troops
 

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I saw in the multiplayer thread co-oping was almost declared against the rules. Why was that?

It has to do with some players beeing bad at multitasking and Jelousy and bad players and such also it has to do with communication and people wanting to play togheter
 

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It has to do with some players beeing bad at multitasking and Jelousy and bad players and such also it has to do with communication and people wanting to play togheter
2 Elcyions vs 1 Elycion in a hypothetical two front war... I'd put my money on the 2 Elcyions. It's not unreasonable for someone complain about having to play against two players in the same country. I don't see the point of you guys threatening to ragequit though, why couldn't pilis just play as a vassal after war is declared (or leave the game to avoid a rehost). The rule could be also only be enforced if the single player decides he doesn't want to face two players.
 

Pewt

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2 Elcyions vs 1 Elycion in a hypothetical two front war... I'd put my money on the 2 Elcyions. It's not unreasonable for someone complain about having to play against two players in the same country. I don't see the point of you guys threatening to ragequit though, why couldn't pilis just play as a vassal after war is declared (or leave the game to avoid a rehost). The rule could be also only be enforced if the single player decides he doesn't want to face two players.
There are wars in which a coop would matter. The war which caused this fiasco was not one of them.
 

Pewt

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Session 7
Player Changes
Mughals is out.

War Continues (Session Start—1556)
With my advantage in troop numbers apparent, I decided to go on the offensive, rushing into Prussia and Austria and reducing the Prussian army to almost nothing, before having to retreat my much-depleted army without any major victories. For a few months back-and-forth action reigned supreme, until Prussia’s warscore was bad enough that I could stability hit him out of the war in exchange for his canceling a core. Despite my major advantage over Austria, he decided to remain fighting, no doubt hoping to hold out long enough for Prussia to rejoin and turn the tide once again. By 1555 both sides’ armies were largely depleted, and I decided to launch an offensive to win the war with more stability hits.
pwb0Xj8.jpg

The meager French army moves forward for one last push.

Soon I was able to occupy sufficient territory to drive warscore above 40%, and stability hit Austria while declaring war on another of his vassals; Cologne. Austria accepted the peace (revocation of all cores), and I annexed Cologne, leaving me with a gain of four provinces from the war as well as revoking four of their cores. A slider move towards Free Subjects granted me Better Administration for a few months of free minting, I built an embassy to accelerate infamy reduction, and reached Land tech 23 and Arsenals with it.

Peace (1556—1570)
The uneasy peace which followed lasted much longer than I expected, as both sides nursed their wounds. I spoke to both Prussia and Austria hoping to bring about an end to the constant wars, but neither seemed interested (Austria resented losing the 7 provinces I’ve taken from him, and Prussia feels cornered given the relative power of Austria and I). Seeing little hope of peace in the future and with third parties still proclaiming neutrality, I built up a standing army of 450,000, burned infamy, and fixed up my economy.

The rest of the world remained relatively peaceful, with the Ottomans slowly eating the now-deceased Mughal Empire and having a minor skirmish with the Netherlands to ensure their dominance of it. While my infamy and with it trade had mostly recovered, the giant Ottomans still dwarfed everyone else in economy by this stage of the game.
vTHzUNS.jpg

The results of uncontested Ottoman expansion into Asia.

Another slider move gave yet another Better Administration event, this time buying me a Fine Arts Academy, and as the new decade began war once again appeared on the horizon; I saw Austrian and Prussian troops massing on my borders and prepared for yet another war.

What War Are We On, Anyways? (1570—Session End)
Soon into 1570, the Germans declared war, blitzing into France and assaulting as they went. My forces were forced to concentrate around the Champagne area, and things briefly looked bad as their much larger army engaged me. While their charge was not sustainable, it would’ve lasted much longer if not for a critical mistake from Austria.
9lNmMrr.jpg

A 4 fire 6 shock general fighting an unled army; the results were predictably messy.

Austria’s army, like most peoples’, was divided into a number of ~10-15 regiment stacks, one of which had his best general. Since most fights have been under 100 regiments per side at the start, the 10:1 wipe condition hasn’t been much of a factor this game, and thus he forgot to merge an extra stack or two with his general before charging. With the general’s maneuver causing it to arrive first, its army wiped instantly and the remaining forces arrived un-led. To make things worse, Austria never noticed, and when I retreated to better ground he followed, taking terrible casualties. Prussia used the chaos to move in on and occupy Paris, but he was ultimately forced to retreat when my army surged back after defeating the Austrian force, and the Germans fled France as I assaulted the land they had taken. For attrition reasons, the front once again stabilized directly on our border, and the war entered a long slugfest where neither side had much ability to advance or even kill many of their opponents.
EhFcwpx.jpg

At the session end 4 years from this screenshot, the front still looks very similar.

By the end of the session, the war looks indecisive. Both of them are drained of manpower while I retain 150,000 men in my reserves, and while their forces are largely depleted they still match mine due to sheer numeric advantage. I lost a significant amount of my army over border skirmishes, paying attention to one area while they would sneak attack in another, and in return have encircled and destroyed a few of their armies and look to be on the verge of another such wipe. The war, it seems, is far from over.

Stats and Map
http://www.europa3.ru/cgi-bin/mpsta...e=int&season=comp-2013&game=XVI&yearsave=1576
6gGm6sL.png


Comments
I intended to record the wars this session and have the visual aid be almost entirely that, but unfortunately the screen recording software instead chose to record my desktop behind the game. As a result, there is a distinct lack of screenshots. I’ll try to get screen recording working properly by next session.

If anyone's interested, the final casualties for the first war were 534,028 Prussians, 807,600 Austrians (for a total of 1,341,628 Germans) and 894,964 Frenchmen. I'd estimate another million or more died from attrition from every involved player. The current casualties in the second war are 946,189 Germans and 786,364 Frenchmen.
 
Last edited:

Rabid

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I can see why the Austria-Prussian alliance is pushing you so strongly, once the green giants finish up in Asia they're going to start looking for something else to eat and aside from a few colonies they're the most obvious and most valuable target.
 

grumphie

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russia and the ottomans are going to get nasty. also, the netherlands have a suprisingly strong economy, and i'd expect them to take a large tech leap on you all, dpeending on how depening they ar eon minting. i expect those endless wars are going to end in the supremacy of either austria or you in germany.

too bad tird parties are not willing to involve themselves. altough i expect them to have their own conflicts. any other major conflicts or rivaly's going on?

edit: if the green giants are going for europe, i think the best would be too make a european alliance of italy, france, prussia and austria to face them. even the green giants owning asia is not enough to take on all of europe, with its huge tax and manpower. especially as revolts and all require many troops back there, while one or two armies the man are enough to cover europe.